FYI on LDS Creationism/Evolution history

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Teancum said:

Since the Church does not share data on activity it is hard to pin point. So all we have really is observations, and from what I see activity rate is very low.  Sure you have pockets that are high for activity and converts. But those seem isolated. If the church is growing well why are we seeing elimination of wards and stakes as well as an adjustment downward for what is required to organize a ward as far as active members and priesthood holders?

You said before that growth and activity figures are dismal.  Now you allow better figures only in rare "pockets."  I already explained the variations internationally, and how California wards diminished primarily because members moved to Utah (as I, my bishop, and our stake patriarch did) or other places.

10 hours ago, Teancum said:

I understand that. Yet again, the majority of service hours is for the church. Yes as @webblesnoted there is service outside the church as well  But it is smaller. I recall when I was active how hard it was to find extra time for other groups.  Some members I knew did better than others. But it is hard to find time if you are doing all the LDS things recommended within your family and if you hold a calling that takes significant time. When active my wife and I typically had time demanding callings. But yea I did not say the members do not contribute time and they do it outside the Church as well.

In a BYU speech, non-LDS Dallas Jenkins (writer, director of "The Chosen") made it clear that an LDS group at BYU loved his initial work on the birth of Jesus, and convinced him to seek crowd-funding to start the full-scale project -- which has now been enormously successful.  He has done some of his filming in Goshen, in Utah County, courtesy of the Church.  LDS charities have rushed large sums of money to disasters worldwide, taking care of non-members.  The Church also has large-scale non-proselyting ops to find jobs for people, as well as to help addicts from any background to get off booze and drugs.  I wrote in detail about the vast LDS charitable efforts in 2012:  http://www.scribd.com/doc/107498713/LDS-Church-Welfare-Expenditures .  LDS charities typically contribute millions to other groups, such Catholic Charities, and a variety of help to homeless groups.  You seem unaware of these wide-ranging efforts.

10 hours ago, Teancum said:

Always?  Do you have a source for this?  I am not doing a CFR but I would be interested in seeing this. As a CPA that does work I would be interested in this.

I don't have other figures, but you are the one insisting that it is only the harsh tithing demands which force Mormons to consistently pay it to be in "good standing," which should be the same year in and year out, with an annual audit by the ward financial clerk (I am being deliberately silly).  According to your own claims, why would the figures vary year to year?

10 hours ago, Teancum said:

Really? Can one go to the temple if not a full tither payer?  Be called as a bishop or stake president?  As I recall, converts are asked to commit to the law of tithing.  What I think is false is your claim that one is in good standing while not paying tithing. Granted you won't be kicked out for not tithing but you will be limited in many things.  Also, if this was not important what is the need for the annual tithing settlement interview?

You have the LDS Church confused with Scientology.  I know of no case when a member not paying tithing was ever called on the carpet.  A great many people do not attend temple and yet are considered members in good standing.  The LDS Church does not now and has never had such a requirement.  Members in good standing are also not required to have a calling, nor to bear their testimony before the congregation, nor to sing in the ward choir.  Nor do they have to attend regular services and partake of the sacramental emblems.  Such matters are between each member and God.  Hugh Nibley loved to repeat that notion about matters being between him and God.

10 hours ago, Teancum said:

I do not think Jesus, you know, the one that the church claims to be his, would not be pleased with the massive hoarding of wealth. EPA is well over $100 billion. But if it's the goal of the church to grow their assets then they are doing very well. At this rate some project the church will be worth over a trillion $ in 20 years or so.  They are giving Elon Musk a run for his money.

Jesus is the one who gave the Parable of the Talents.  At least the Brethren think he did.  Should they disregard canonical Scripture?   What is your interpretation of that parable?   Why do you believe that the Brethren are not pleasing Jesus?  What would you have the Brethren do immediately with that "hoarded wealth"?  Of course, if you do not believe that the Brethren are inspired, there is no reason to respect what they are doing.

You also seem to be rejecting the general LDS Church strategy to teach a man to fish and you feed him for life, rather than to feed that man for a day by immediately buying him one fish.  You have seen that upwards of $24 billion was spent on the homeless in California over a five-year period, with no effect, and now no one can account for how the money was actually spent.  Just throwing money at problems doesn't solve them.  https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/california-homelessness-spending-audit-24b-five-years-didnt-consistently-track-outcomes/ .  Indeed, homelessness has only grown 251% in America since 2007, and about 18% during 2023.

[MiserereNobis]

36 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A great many people do not attend temple and yet are considered members in good standing.  The LDS Church does not now and has never had such a requirement.  Members in good standing are also not required to have a calling, nor to bear their testimony before the congregation, nor to sing in the ward choir.  Nor do they have to attend regular services and partake of the sacramental emblems.

What is the definition of a member in good standing? Or conversely, in bad standing?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

What is the definition of a member in good standing? Or conversely, in bad standing?

From the Handbook

Quote

 

 a membership council is held for one of the matters outlined in this section, the decision of the council must be “remains in good standing,” “formal membership restrictions,” or “withdrawal of membership.” First Presidency approval is required to remove formal restrictions or readmit the person into the Church (see 32.16.1, number 9)….

In some membership councils, leaders may determine that the member is not in good standing—but that formal membership restrictions are not warranted. In these instances, the council may decide that the person should receive personal counseling and correction from the bishop or stake president. This counseling may include informal membership restrictions as outlined in 32.8.3.

Personal counseling and informal membership restrictions are not an option when a council is held for the sins listed in 32.6.1.

Seems like it may be defined by what it is not….a member in good standing does not have formal or informal membership restrictions.  Ooops, it’s on my dark view setting.  Let me know if unreadable.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/32-repentance-and-membership-councils?lang=eng#title77

Edited January 4, 2025 by Calm

[marineland]

On 1/2/2025 at 5:05 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

All humans, including me, have been created the same way, every time, by mammalian reproduction

I meant,  "how was Adam created on earth"?

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

I am pretty sure that is what Robert was referring to though.  And it was your response that didn’t respond to what he meant which is why I added mine.

We don’t accept or judge members in the Church on the basis of if they can pay tithing or not.  How much tithing is paid in dollar amounts is not a standard of worthiness in our faith.  

Can a member who earns income but is not a tithe payer get a temple recommend, advance in a priesthood office or be called to be a bishop, stake president or other similar callings? I never argued it was a $ amount. But being a full tithe payer is expected for the things I listed.

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You said before that growth and activity figures are dismal.  Now you allow better figures only in rare "pockets."  I already explained the variations internationally, and how California wards diminished primarily because members moved to Utah (as I, my bishop, and our stake patriarch did) or other places.

In a BYU speech, non-LDS Dallas Jenkins (writer, director of "The Chosen") made it clear that an LDS group at BYU loved his initial work on the birth of Jesus, and convinced him to seek crowd-funding to start the full-scale project -- which has now been enormously successful.  He has done some of his filming in Goshen, in Utah County, courtesy of the Church.  LDS charities have rushed large sums of money to disasters worldwide, taking care of non-members.  The Church also has large-scale non-proselyting ops to find jobs for people, as well as to help addicts from any background to get off booze and drugs.  I wrote in detail about the vast LDS charitable efforts in 2012:  http://www.scribd.com/doc/107498713/LDS-Church-Welfare-Expenditures .  LDS charities typically contribute millions to other groups, such Catholic Charities, and a variety of help to homeless groups.  You seem unaware of these wide-ranging efforts.

I don't have other figures, but you are the one insisting that it is only the harsh tithing demands which force Mormons to consistently pay it to be in "good standing," which should be the same year in and year out, with an annual audit by the ward financial clerk (I am being deliberately silly).  According to your own claims, why would the figures vary year to year?

You have the LDS Church confused with Scientology.  I know of no case when a member not paying tithing was ever called on the carpet.  A great many people do not attend temple and yet are considered members in good standing.  The LDS Church does not now and has never had such a requirement.  Members in good standing are also not required to have a calling, nor to bear their testimony before the congregation, nor to sing in the ward choir.  Nor do they have to attend regular services and partake of the sacramental emblems.  Such matters are between each member and God.  Hugh Nibley loved to repeat that notion about matters being between him and God.

Jesus is the one who gave the Parable of the Talents.  At least the Brethren think he did.  Should they disregard canonical Scripture?   What is your interpretation of that parable?   Why do you believe that the Brethren are not pleasing Jesus?  What would you have the Brethren do immediately with that "hoarded wealth"?  Of course, if you do not believe that the Brethren are inspired, there is no reason to respect what they are doing.

You also seem to be rejecting the general LDS Church strategy to teach a man to fish and you feed him for life, rather than to feed that man for a day by immediately buying him one fish.  You have seen that upwards of $24 billion was spent on the homeless in California over a five-year period, with no effect, and now no one can account for how the money was actually spent.  Just throwing money at problems doesn't solve them.  https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/california-homelessness-spending-audit-24b-five-years-didnt-consistently-track-outcomes/ .  Indeed, homelessness has only grown 251% in America since 2007, and about 18% during 2023.

Sigh.... So many straw men in your post. Not sure it is worth my energy.  Maybe later. To busy right now.

[webbles]

7 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Can a member who earns income but is not a tithe payer get a temple recommend, advance in a priesthood office or be called to be a bishop, stake president or other similar callings? I never argued it was a $ amount. But being a full tithe payer is expected for the things I listed.

Can a women who is making money but not paying tithing be called to Relief Society President?  Is that an actual requirement for the calling?  What about Relief Society presidency, Young Women presidency, etc.  I've never been in any leadership calling so I've never been in the position to assign callings.  But I know that a temple recommend isn't required for them.

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

What is the definition of a member in good standing? Or conversely, in bad standing?

"Bad standing" (we never use that terminology) would be "unchristianlike conduct," which can get a member disfellowshipped or excommunicated.  That would include violating Christian standards of behavior:  promiscuity, adultery, theft, preaching against the Church, etc.  Incarcerated criminals are regularly excommunicated.  Once they have done their time, they may visit a bishop and begin the process of reentering the faith, getting rebaptized, having priesthood restored, etc.

"Good standing" would include being any baptized member of the Church who is not in bad standing.  I can imagine many Roman Catholic members in good standing who do not take part in Church activities, and who may show up only for funerals and the like.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

I meant,  "how was Adam created on earth"?

All humans ('adam) are created by mammalian reproduction.  All of them.  No exceptions.  Brother Brigham and other Presidents of the LDS Church have repeated this.

[Tony uk]

Being from the Roman Catholic Church, I can say there are quite a few who turn up for Baptisms/Weddings/Funerals/Easter/Christmas. And with gaps in the aforementioned.

[Robert F. Smith]

48 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Sigh.... So many straw men in your post. Not sure it is worth my energy.  Maybe later. To busy right now.

Of course.  

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

Can a member who earns income but is not a tithe payer get a temple recommend, advance in a priesthood office or be called to be a bishop, stake president or other similar callings?

I think there is a possiblity for advancing priesthood office and a temple recommend if the member is married to a nonmember and the member does not pay tithing out of consideration for their spouse given what I have heard over the years.  I don’t know if there is policy on this though.  

I doubt someone who didn’t have support at home would be called to those higher leadership positions if only because of time commitment and likelihood this would cause strife at home and thus distraction from being able to focus on the calling as needed…plus wives of leaders are often treated as if they have a calling as well by members at least, if not leadership…so I don’t think the question would get raised, but if it did and that was the only reason to reject a leader for a higher calling, my guess is they would get rejected.  

I wonder though if self employed or business owners that may have a year of loss rather than gain might be called if there was a pattern showing they faithfully paid tithing in chunks rather than monthly or a set time, instead paying when money was more available (say they gave themselves only enough salary to pay for absolutely needed expenses and then got bonuses to make up for the loss when bringing in money, so they would pay tithing in bonus months and also cover the tithes of their base salary that they missed due to no additional funds being available).   My dad paid his tithing in 2 year chunks to maximize taxes iirc, so he was always either 11 or less months behind or 11 or less months ahead in his tithes.  This didn’t stop him from getting callings, as far as I am aware, but he was never bishop (my guess is he would have turned down the calling if anyone was clueless enough to call him to such), though he served as branch president when necessary and did so willingly.

[longview]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

8 hours ago, marineland said:

I meant,  "how was Adam created on earth"?

All humans ('adam) are created by mammalian reproduction.  All of them.  No exceptions.  Brother Brigham and other Presidents of the LDS Church have repeated this.

The FALL needed to happen. What triggered it? Before the FALL, all of creation (speaking only of Earth) were in a Terrestrial State where animals were reproducing. With one glaring exception: Adam and Eve could NOT have children. They were given a mutually exclusive choice between: 1- avoiding the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; 2- reproduction. The only way for them to reproduce was to partake of the Forbidden Fruit. One commandment had to be "transgressed" in order to keep the other commandment. If they obeyed the first commandment, they would have lived forever in an unchanging state but never having children. This is exactly as the prophet Lehi explained.

The Book of Moses makes this clear and unambiguous:

Chapter 5:
10. And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11. And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

[marineland]

On 1/4/2025 at 12:30 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

All humans ('adam) are created by mammalian reproduction.  All of them.  No exceptions.  Brother Brigham and other Presidents of the LDS Church have repeated this.

How was Adam, the father of Cain and Abel, created?

[marineland]

20 hours ago, longview said:

The FALL needed to happen. What triggered it? Before the FALL, all of creation (speaking only of Earth) were in a Terrestrial State where animals were reproducing. With one glaring exception: Adam and Eve could NOT have children.

Why did you use that expression "speaking only of Earth"?

[teddyaware]

On 1/4/2025 at 7:28 PM, longview said:

The FALL needed to happen. What triggered it? Before the FALL, all of creation (speaking only of Earth) were in a Terrestrial State where animals were reproducing. With one glaring exception: Adam and Eve could NOT have children. They were given a mutually exclusive choice between: 1- avoiding the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; 2- reproduction. The only way for them to reproduce was to partake of the Forbidden Fruit. One commandment had to be "transgressed" in order to keep the other commandment. If they obeyed the first commandment, they would have lived forever in an unchanging state but never having children. This is exactly as the prophet Lehi explained.

The Book of Moses makes this clear and unambiguous:

Chapter 5:
10. And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11. And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

According to Moses 3, you are incorrect in your notion about there being the procreation of plants and animals prior to the fall. Note that in verse 8 plant life isn’t even introduced on the earth until after the creation of Adam!

I fully realize these verses are perplexing, to say the least, because the usual explanation of how the creation took place is turned completely on its head, an exact reversal of the generally accepted creation narrative. As a consequence, I find these verses most fascinating!

Moses 3 also makes it abundantly clear that the creation account in Genesis 1 is focused exclusively on the spiritual creation of the earth and the spiritual creation of all plants and animals, the outlined process of creation concluding with the creation of the spirits of all the men and women who would one day come to inhabit the natural earth as we know it today, with their preexisting spirits clothed upon with earthly tabernacles of flesh, bone and blood.

3 And I, God, blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it I had rested from all my work which I, God, had created and made.

4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was NOT YET FLESH UPON THE EARTH, neither in the water, neither in the air;

6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, THE FIRST FLESH UPON THE EARTH, THE FIRST MAN ALSO; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word. 

8 And I, the Lord God, planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there I put the man whom I had formed. (Moses 3)

Edited January 6, 2025 by teddyaware

[webbles]

52 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

According to Moses 3, you are incorrect in your notion about there being the procreation of plants and animals prior to the fall. Note that in verse 8 plant life isn’t even introduced on the earth until after the creation of Adam!

I fully realize these verses are perplexing, to say the least, because the usual explanation of how the creation took place is turned completely on its head, an exact reversal of the generally accepted creation narrative. As a consequence, I find these verses most fascinating!

Moses 3 also makes it abundantly clear that the creation account in Genesis 1 is focused exclusively on the spiritual creation of the earth and the spiritual creation of all plants and animals, the outlined process of creation concluding with the creation of the spirits of all the men and women who would one day come to inhabit the natural earth as we know it today, with their preexisting spirits clothed upon with earthly tabernacles of flesh, bone and blood.

How do you deal with the conflict in Genesis, Moses, Abraham, and the Temple Endowment in regards to the ordering?  Also, how do you deal with the fact that the ordering in the Temple Endowment was recently changed?  Which of the 4 win?

Also, I don't see how Moses 3 makes it abundantly clear that the creation account in Genesis 1 is focused exclusively on the spiritual creation of the earth.  When does the earth get physically created?  There's nothing in Moses 3 that talks about that.  And if everything before Moses 3 is spiritual, that means that the physical earth and everything in it wasn't created in the 7 day period but done in a different period unmentioned.

Edited January 6, 2025 by webbles

[Teancum]

On 1/4/2025 at 6:20 PM, Calm said:

I think there is a possiblity for advancing priesthood office and a temple recommend if the member is married to a nonmember and the member does not pay tithing out of consideration for their spouse given what I have heard over the years.  I don’t know if there is policy on this though.  

I doubt someone who didn’t have support at home would be called to those higher leadership positions if only because of time commitment and likelihood this would cause strife at home and thus distraction from being able to focus on the calling as needed…plus wives of leaders are often treated as if they have a calling as well by members at least, if not leadership…so I don’t think the question would get raised, but if it did and that was the only reason to reject a leader for a higher calling, my guess is they would get rejected.  

I wonder though if self employed or business owners that may have a year of loss rather than gain might be called if there was a pattern showing they faithfully paid tithing in chunks rather than monthly or a set time, instead paying when money was more available (say they gave themselves only enough salary to pay for absolutely needed expenses and then got bonuses to make up for the loss when bringing in money, so they would pay tithing in bonus months and also cover the tithes of their base salary that they missed due to no additional funds being available).   My dad paid his tithing in 2 year chunks to maximize taxes iirc, so he was always either 11 or less months behind or 11 or less months ahead in his tithes.  This didn’t stop him from getting callings, as far as I am aware, but he was never bishop (my guess is he would have turned down the calling if anyone was clueless enough to call him to such), though he served as branch president when necessary and did so willingly.

Ok, but both you and @Robert F. Smithseems to avoid or dance around my questions.  Why?

[SteveO]

28 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Ok, but both you and @Robert F. Smithseems to avoid or dance around my questions.  Why?

You mean someone who prays and reads scriptures daily, does family history, family home evening, attends church weekly, obeys WoW, attends temple monthly, faithfully completes ministering and never misses an elder’s quorum service project?  
 

That guy just decides to not pay tithing?  

Because that’s what you’re asking even if you’re not explicitly stating it.  And no, I don’t believe you, or anyone else was “that person” when you decided to quit paying tithing.
 

And no, like Bill Maher, I don’t have any evidence for it.  I just know.

[Teancum]

On 1/3/2025 at 9:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

You said before that growth and activity figures are dismal.  Now you allow better figures only in rare "pockets."  I already explained the variations internationally, and how California wards diminished primarily because members moved to Utah (as I, my bishop, and our stake patriarch did) or other places.

Ok. Regardless, when one looks at the church world wide and looks at convert rates, rates of retaining converts, activity rates, child of record baptisms and loss of formerly very active and committed members like myself, the picture is anything but robust.  At least that is my take. I could be wrong. It could turn around.  Who knows. If you think things are quote fine and robust, then ok. We will have to disagree on this,.

 

On 1/3/2025 at 9:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

In a BYU speech, non-LDS Dallas Jenkins (writer, director of "The Chosen") made it clear that an LDS group at BYU loved his initial work on the birth of Jesus, and convinced him to seek crowd-funding to start the full-scale project -- which has now been enormously successful.  He has done some of his filming in Goshen, in Utah County, courtesy of the Church.  LDS charities have rushed large sums of money to disasters worldwide, taking care of non-members.  The Church also has large-scale non-proselyting ops to find jobs for people, as well as to help addicts from any background to get off booze and drugs.  I wrote in detail about the vast LDS charitable efforts in 2012:  http://www.scribd.com/doc/107498713/LDS-Church-Welfare-Expenditures .  LDS charities typically contribute millions to other groups, such Catholic Charities, and a variety of help to homeless groups.  You seem unaware of these wide-ranging efforts.

I am well aware of all of this and tossing this in seems like a straw man. I never argued the church was not doing things that you describe above.  But if you want to discuss what the church does on these things as compared to its vast resources we can do so.  I applaud what the church does here.  For a long time after I became disaffected from the church I donated the fast offering and to the humanitarian aid fund.  But when the vast wealth of EPA was revealed and along with the note on the donation slip that the church can use the $ for whatever they want regardless of my designation, I stopped giving to the church.

 

On 1/3/2025 at 9:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't have other figures, but you are the one insisting that it is only the harsh tithing demands which force Mormons to consistently pay it to be in "good standing," which should be the same year in and year out, with an annual audit by the ward financial clerk (I am being deliberately silly).  According to your own claims, why would the figures vary year to year?

I am a bit puzzled as to why you and @Calmseem unable to answer a few simple question I have asked more than once about tithing and how not being a tithe payer impacts a member's ability to attend the temple, hold certain calling and so on.  I am not arguing at all what you describe above.

 

On 1/3/2025 at 9:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

You have the LDS Church confused with Scientology. 

Huh?

On 1/3/2025 at 9:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

 

I know of no case when a member not paying tithing was ever called on the carpet.  A great many people do not attend temple and yet are considered members in good standing.

I did not argue that they were not accepted. But a non tithe payer cannot attend the temple cannot hold certain callings and may be restricted in priesthood advancement. Do you dispute this?  This is a simple yes or no question.

 

On 1/3/2025 at 9:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

  The LDS Church does not now and has never had such a requirement.  Members in good standing are also not required to have a calling, nor to bear their testimony before the congregation, nor to sing in the ward choir.  Nor do they have to attend regular services and partake of the sacramental emblems.  Such matters are between each member and God.  Hugh Nibley loved to repeat that notion about matters being between him and God.

This has nothing to do with my point.

On 1/3/2025 at 9:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Jesus is the one who gave the Parable of the Talents.  At least the Brethren think he did.  Should they disregard canonical Scripture?   What is your interpretation of that parable?   Why do you believe that the Brethren are not pleasing Jesus?  What would you have the Brethren do immediately with that "hoarded wealth"?  Of course, if you do not believe that the Brethren are inspired, there is no reason to respect what they are doing.

The accumulation of vast wealth seems to me to go against what Jesus preached and what all the LDS scriptures teach about such things. Should the Church of Jesus Christ be one of the most wealthy organizations on earth?  Could they not start to use their vast funds to do more of what they already do?  I have no issue with a large organization having an endowment fund worth 2 or 3 times the organization annual expenditures. The LDS Church has about 25x of its annual operating budget in stocks and other investments and has only used some of that money to build a mall and nail out an insurance company. 

 

On 1/3/2025 at 9:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

You also seem to be rejecting the general LDS Church strategy to teach a man to fish and you feed him for life, rather than to feed that man for a day by immediately buying him one fish.

Do I? Where? This is another straw man.

On 1/3/2025 at 9:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

 

  You have seen that upwards of $24 billion was spent on the homeless in California over a five-year period, with no effect, and now no one can account for how the money was actually spent.  Just throwing money at problems doesn't solve them.  https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/california-homelessness-spending-audit-24b-five-years-didnt-consistently-track-outcomes/ .  Indeed, homelessness has only grown 251% in America since 2007, and about 18% during 2023.

Oh good lord what is your name. Smac?  So because CA botched its efforts to deal with the homeless then that justifies the church accumulating vast wealth?  This is just a deflection.

[Teancum]

On 1/4/2025 at 11:55 AM, webbles said:

Can a women who is making money but not paying tithing be called to Relief Society President?  Is that an actual requirement for the calling?  What about Relief Society presidency, Young Women presidency, etc.  I've never been in any leadership calling so I've never been in the position to assign callings.  But I know that a temple recommend isn't required for them.

Like others you seem unable to answer my simple questions and toss out deflections like this. Very telling really,

[Teancum]

On 1/4/2025 at 12:17 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

"Bad standing" (we never use that terminology) would be "unchristianlike conduct," which can get a member disfellowshipped or excommunicated.  That would include violating Christian standards of behavior:  promiscuity, adultery, theft, preaching against the Church, etc.  Incarcerated criminals are regularly excommunicated.  Once they have done their time, they may visit a bishop and begin the process of reentering the faith, getting rebaptized, having priesthood restored, etc.

"Good standing" would include being any baptized member of the Church who is not in bad standing.  I can imagine many Roman Catholic members in good standing who do not take part in Church activities, and who may show up only for funerals and the like.

Perhaps the term good standing is not appropriate. How about a member that is a non tithe payer is limited on certain things?

[webbles]

41 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Like others you seem unable to answer my simple questions and toss out deflections like this. Very telling really,

I'm actually curious.  The only thing that I know that a non-tithe payer can't do is get a temple recommend.  I don't know of anything else that limits it.  You mentioned priesthood so I was wondering if women are affected since they can't be ordained to priesthood offices.

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, teddyaware said:

According to Moses 3, you are incorrect in your notion about there being the procreation of plants and animals prior to the fall. Note that in verse 8 plant life isn’t even introduced on the earth until after the creation of Adam!

I fully realize these verses are perplexing, to say the least, because the usual explanation of how the creation took place is turned completely on its head, an exact reversal of the generally accepted creation narrative. As a consequence, I find these verses most fascinating!

Moses 3 also makes it abundantly clear that the creation account in Genesis 1 is focused exclusively on the spiritual creation of the earth and the spiritual creation of all plants and animals, the outlined process of creation concluding with the creation of the spirits of all the men and women who would one day come to inhabit the natural earth as we know it today, with their preexisting spirits clothed upon with earthly tabernacles of flesh, bone and blood.

3 And I, God, blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it I had rested from all my work which I, God, had created and made.

4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was NOT YET FLESH UPON THE EARTH, neither in the water, neither in the air;

6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, THE FIRST FLESH UPON THE EARTH, THE FIRST MAN ALSO; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word. 

8 And I, the Lord God, planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there I put the man whom I had formed. (Moses 3)

It is sure tough trying to fit your religious belief on creation withing the science of creation and evolution. The latter has evidence and is devastating to your religious view.  The former is lacking any evidence and is faith only in myth.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

You mean someone who prays and reads scriptures daily, does family history, family home evening, attends church weekly, obeys WoW, attends temple monthly, faithfully completes ministering and never misses an elder’s quorum service project?  
 

That guy just decides to not pay tithing?  

Because that’s what you’re asking even if you’re not explicitly stating it.  And no, I don’t believe you, or anyone else was “that person” when you decided to quit paying tithing.
 

And no, like Bill Maher, I don’t have any evidence for it.  I just know.

Huh?  Another stray man and deflection.