Endowment changes yet again

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

whenever I hear about a priest in a confessional telling the penitent person to say 100 Hail Marys and 100 Our Fathers I wonder at the utility of it. Does it work for forgiveness? Help the person not to think about the thing he or she did that needed confessing?

I assume it is similar to us saying sing a hymn, only upgraded as they are actually trying to connect with God through their meditation (I hope that is seen as respectful terminology, if there is a more accurate term, would love to hear and then use it).  Practically speaking it shifts to well sized neural pathways away from the thoughts that led to sinfulness. I assume the feelings ideally would be a sense of rededication to the Lord.

““For your penance say three Hail Marys, and you may now say the act of contrition.” Have you ever left the sacrament of confession wondering at the gap between the gravity of what you just confessed and the mildness of the penance assigned?

Praying those three Hail Marys for your penance is very good: it can be done immediately after confession, it is a way of further admitting our sin to God, witnesses to our sorrow and intentions to make amends, and it is usually partial reparation for the sin we’ve committed.”

https://madisondiocese.org/bus-to-heaven#:~:text=Praying those three Hail Marys,the sin we've committed.

Edited September 6, 2024 by Calm

[manol]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

But whenever I hear about a priest in a confessional telling the penitent person to say 100 Hail Marys and 100 Our Fathers I wonder at the utility of it. Does it work for forgiveness? Help the person not to think about the thing he or she did that needed confessing?

Again not claiming to speak for @MiserereNobis nor anyone other than myself:

One might likewise ask how eating a tiny piece of bread and drinking a tiny cup of water have anything to do with forgiveness.  Well, obviously it's not the food itself has this beneficial effect on the person.  It has more to do with the symbolism of internalizing Christ (which if I understand correctly, the Catholic Sacrament of Communion takes more literally than its LDS counterpart does).  It has more to do with aligning oneself to God, in this case via the affirmations expressed by the wording in the Sacrament prayers:  In partaking of the bread, members witness that they are WILLING to take upon themselves the name of Christ, always remember him, and keep his commandments which he has given them (affirmation of one's willingness).  Those who partake of the water witness that they DO always remember him (affirmation of one's thoughts being on or in Christ).  And obviously there is benefit in the exact same wording being used every single time.

What is the exact mechanism by which forgiveness happens?  Different belief systems have somewhat differing answers, but among Christian belief systems it has to do with the Atonement of Christ doing something we cannot do for ourselves.  And in this context I don't think aligning oneself to God, or to the highest one knows, by whatever outward or inward means, is ever wasted effort. 

I'm sure it is possible to say 100 Hail Marys and 100 Our Fathers by rote, without making any connection with the Divine.  Likewise LDS prayers have been said by rote a time or two, whether in a church setting or at home.  But it is also possible to really commune with God and to really listen for the inner voice that speaks for God.  And imo herein lies one of the beneficial attributes of Catholic prayer:  While the part of the mind that is repeating the prayer is on autopilot, the preponderance of one's attention can be on LISTENING with one's heart and soul, instead of trying to figure out what to say next, and/or on which wording to use so that it sounds like King James Bible English.  Or, if the situation calls for it, the preponderance of one's attention can be focused on something more immediately pressing, like paddling across the Rhine under fire as quickly as possible (outstanding example!). 

Imo the amount of TIME required to say 100 Hail Marys and 100 Our Fathers can also be beneficial because it's not always easy to flip the switch and instantly tune in to the Divine.  Nor, I would imagine, having tuned in to the Divine, does one always want to immediately bounce back into everyday life; again the TIME required can presumably be a welcome respite from the cares of the world. 

I used the word "affirmation" in the first paragraph knowing that it's not a part of LDS culture, although the concept is:  Assuming you have them memorized, think of the last set of words you repeat before being welcomed into the Celestial Room.  Those words are an affirmation, and a rather far-reaching one at that.  Imo this sequence of events is not by chance. 

Edited September 6, 2024 by manol

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, manol said:

One might likewise ask how eating a tiny piece of bread and drinking a tiny cup of water have anything to do with forgiveness.

That's a very good question. When it comes to mechanisms, there is no mechanism but the blood of Christ, as Matthew records it:

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matt. 26:26-28)

This is echoed in Luke 22 and Mark 14 (perhaps understandably, since Mark is regarded as the Urquelle of the synoptic gospels). But Matthew connects Christ's blood specifically with forgiveness (remission of sins).

In 1 Cor. 11 Paul writes of the sacrament:

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

While he doesn't reference forgiveness in this passage, it is strongly implied. Only those who are worthy should partake, and one should examine oneself to determine if one is worthy -- the implication of worthiness suggests repentance to my mind, which suggests forgiveness.

You are correct that eating a morsel of bread and a sip of water does not forgive us. What it does do is show to the Lord that we are trying our best, and that we remember Him. 

[MiserereNobis]

On 9/6/2024 at 7:40 AM, Stargazer said:

But whenever I hear about a priest in a confessional telling the penitent person to say 100 Hail Marys and 100 Our Fathers I wonder at the utility of it. Does it work for forgiveness?

Forgiveness/absolution is not contingent on the penance prescribed. If the penitent does not complete the penance, forgiveness/absolution has still been given. 
 

God’s mercy is truly infinite. 

[MiserereNobis]

On 9/6/2024 at 1:02 PM, Stargazer said:

You are correct that eating a morsel of bread and a sip of water does not forgive us. What it does do is show to the Lord that we are trying our best, and that we remember Him. 

And this is the purpose of penance after confession. 

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Forgiveness/absolution is not contingent on the penance prescribed. If the penitent does not complete the penance, forgiveness/absolution has still been given. 

Then why is the penance prescribed? 

9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

God’s mercy is truly infinite. 

Very true.

[Bernard Gui]

22 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Then why is the penance prescribed? 

Very true.

 

On 9/6/2024 at 3:02 PM, Stargazer said:

That's a very good question. When it comes to mechanisms, there is no mechanism but the blood of Christ, as Matthew records it:

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matt. 26:26-28)

This is echoed in Luke 22 and Mark 14 (perhaps understandably, since Mark is regarded as the Urquelle of the synoptic gospels). But Matthew connects Christ's blood specifically with forgiveness (remission of sins).

In 1 Cor. 11 Paul writes of the sacrament:

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

While he doesn't reference forgiveness in this passage, it is strongly implied. Only those who are worthy should partake, and one should examine oneself to determine if one is worthy -- the implication of worthiness suggests repentance to my mind, which suggests forgiveness.

You are correct that eating a morsel of bread and a sip of water does not forgive us. What it does do is show to the Lord that we are trying our best, and that we remember Him. 

Jesus gave more detailed instructions when he instituted the sacrament in Zarahemla. We follow these instructions today.

1. Observing the ordinance of the sacrament is a commandment.

2. The disciples were commanded  by Jesus to give the bread and wine/water to the people.

3. Authority is necessary to break the bread, and bless and distribute the bread and wine/water.

4. Taking the bread and wine/water is in obedience to the Lord's commandments, in remembrance of the his body and blood, and a promise to keep his commandments and always remember him.

5. Observing the ordinance as commanded with no changes will bring blessings, and the observers will always have the Spirit of the Lord with them.

Quote

3 Nephi:18

1 And it came to pass that Jesus commanded his disciples that they should bring forth some bread and wine unto him.

2 And while they were gone for bread and wine, he commanded the multitude that they should sit themselves down upon the earth.

3 And when the disciples had come with bread and wine, he took of the bread and brake and blessed it; and he gave unto the disciples and commanded that they should eat.

4 And when they had eaten and were filled, he commanded that they should give unto the multitude.

5 And when the multitude had eaten and were filled, he said unto the disciples: Behold there shall one be ordained among you, and to him will I give power that he shall break bread and bless it and give it unto the people of my church, unto all those who shall believe and be baptized in my name.

6 And this shall ye always observe to do, even as I have done, even as I have broken bread and blessed it and given it unto you.

7 And this shall ye do in remembrance of my body, which I have shown unto you. And it shall be a testimony unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.

8 And it came to pass that when he said these words, he commanded his disciples that they should take of the wine of the cup and drink of it, and that they should also give unto the multitude that they might drink of it.

9 And it came to pass that they did so, and did drink of it and were filled; and they gave unto the multitude, and they did drink, and they were filled.

10 And when the disciples had done this, Jesus said unto them: Blessed are ye for this thing which ye have done, for this is fulfilling my commandments, and this doth witness unto the Father that ye are willing to do that which I have commanded you.

11 And this shall ye always do to those who repent and are baptized in my name; and ye shall do it in remembrance of my blood, which I have shed for you, that ye may witness unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.

12 And I give unto you a commandment that ye shall do these things. And if ye shall always do these things blessed are ye, for ye are built upon my rock.

13 But whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation; and when the rain descends, and the floods come, and the winds blow, and beat upon them, they shall fall, and the gates of hell are ready open to receive them.

14 Therefore blessed are ye if ye shall keep my commandments, which the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you.

 

Edited September 9, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[manol]

@MiserereNobis wrote:

13 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Forgiveness/absolution is not contingent on the penance prescribed. If the penitent does not complete the penance, forgiveness/absolution has still been given.

To which @Stargazer replied:

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Then why is the penance prescribed?

In my opinion:  It is for the individual's highest good.

 

@MiserereNobis again:

13 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

God’s mercy is truly infinite. 

In my opinion:  The less barriers to an individual's awareness of and immersive experience in, and being filled with, God's infinite mercy, the better.  Imo penance in this context is an effective means of traversing or removing such barriers.

Edited September 9, 2024 by manol

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Then why is the penance prescribed? 

Very true.

I am assuming you hit his post after you posted this, but since you didn’t edit as in “nvm, answered”….

Quote

What it does do is show to the Lord that we are trying our best, and that we remember Him. 

 

13 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

And this is the purpose of penance after confession. 

 

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Jesus gave more detailed instructions when he instituted the sacrament in Zarahemla. We follow these instructions today.

1. Observing the ordinance of the sacrament is a commandment.

2. The disciples were commanded  by Jesus to give the bread and wine/water to the people.

3. Authority is necessary to break the bread, and bless and distribute the bread and wine/water.

4. Taking the bread and wine/water is in obedience to the Lord's commandments, in remembrance of the his body and blood, and a promise to keep his commandments and always remember him.

5. Observing the ordinance as commanded with no changes will bring blessings, and the observers will always have the Spirit of the Lord with them.

 

Yes.

Just to explain why I didn't bring these scriptures into it, when dealing with non-LDS I do tend to restrict myself to Old and New Testaments, if the goal is to show that what we believe is contained in the scriptures they already trust. I realize that @manol, while off the beaten LDS path is not non-LDS, but for the sake of others in the conversation...   

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, manol said:

@MiserereNobis wrote:

To which @Stargazer replied:

In my opinion:  It is for the individual's highest good.

I do understand this, but I was hoping to get a more Catholicly rendition. I suppose I could do some research on Catholic Answers (which I have found to be a very useful source), but I am hoping @MiserereNobis could give a more personal understanding of it.

2 hours ago, manol said:

 

@MiserereNobis again:

In my opinion:  The less barriers to an individual's awareness of and immersive experience in, and being filled with, God's infinite mercy, the better.  Imo penance in this context is an effective means of traversing or removing such barriers.

As said, I understand this. 

I also recall hearing some rather extreme kinds of prescribed penance being demanded in the past, such as one worldly leader being asked to walk a long distance on his knees in order to show that he was serious. This was a long time ago, and I wish I could remember who it was. Some king or other.

Sometimes, it seemed that the penance was assigned as a punishment, as if the punishment resulted in the forgiveness. Much in a similar fashion to how financial donations to the Church would reduce the donor's time in Purgatory. 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I am assuming you hit his post after you posted this, but since you didn’t edit as in “nvm, answered”….

It was only a partial answer. For me, at least. Maybe it's a full answer for others.

What I was looking for was a fuller explanation to this: "If the penitent does not complete the penance, forgiveness/absolution has still been given." 

I asked for a fuller explanation for this because letting the penitent go without completion of the penance sounds a lot like allowing the thief to escape with what he stole after he confessed stealing it. It just seemed like something is potentially missing.

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I suppose I could do some research on Catholic Answers (which I have found to be a very useful source)

For Catholic Answers on Catholicism (of course).  But for its "information" on "Mormonism"?  Nope!   

I get the pushback.  And Latter-day Saints are not squeaky clean on this point for sure, but it disappoints me when I see religious groups like Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses, groups that I can sympathize with in their struggle to get their beliefs portrayed accurately by other groups that attack them, then turn around and publish misinformation about another religious group themselves.  

Edited September 9, 2024 by InCognitus

[supersc]

Technical Question:

Has anyone recently attended a temple that uses the 2-stage progression rooms, with the new presentation changes?

- Has video been introduced yet to the 2nd room that has veil access?

- Does the move from the 1st room to the 2nd room happen just before the prayer circle?

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, supersc said:

Technical Question:

Has anyone recently attended a temple that uses the 2-stage progression rooms, with the new presentation changes?

- Has video been introduced yet to the 2nd room that has veil access?

- Does the move from the 1st room to the 2nd room happen just before the prayer circle?

As far as I know it still happens right after the clothing is added. 

[Stargazer]

23 hours ago, InCognitus said:

For Catholic Answers on Catholicism (of course).  But for its "information" on "Mormonism"?  Nope!   

Well, that's what is useful in both senses. The first for info on Catholicism, a religion I find very interesting for itself, and the second because it's good to know what they think of us so I can address it if it comes up online or IRL.

23 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I get the pushback.  And Latter-day Saints are not squeaky clean on this point for sure, but it disappoints me when I see religious groups like Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses, groups that I can sympathize with in their struggle to get their beliefs portrayed accurately by other groups that attack them, then turn around and publish misinformation about another religious group themselves.  

I served my mission in Germany, and we ran into JWs occasionally while tracting. I usually enjoyed those instances because they, at least, were willing to talk to us! I had a few good discussions with JWs, and never ran into any of them who were unfriendly or combative. In fact, the last apartment I was in as a missionary was owned by an elderly JW couple, and they were very friendly and pleasant people. 

[Stargazer]

This video turned up in my YouTube feed today, and given the title I assumed that it would be a complaint about the new endowment changes. So I girded my loins, so to speak, and started watching. I needed have worried! The video itself is heartwarming, but the comments are even more so.

So, for all you complainers out there:

 

[MiserereNobis]

On 9/9/2024 at 2:23 PM, Stargazer said:

It was only a partial answer. For me, at least. Maybe it's a full answer for others.

What I was looking for was a fuller explanation to this: "If the penitent does not complete the penance, forgiveness/absolution has still been given." 

I asked for a fuller explanation for this because letting the penitent go without completion of the penance sounds a lot like allowing the thief to escape with what he stole after he confessed stealing it. It just seemed like something is potentially missing.

Once absolution is given, the sin is forgiven. Forgiveness is not contingent on penance. That would imply that we can somehow do something through our acts to gain forgiveness. It is freely given when we ask for it through Confession.

If one willingly refuses to do penance after Confession, the sin does not "return." It has been washed clean, as white as snow, when absolution was granted. What does happen, however, is the penitent has incurred a new sin: refusing penance.

Sometimes the penitent may not be comfortable with the penance. The penitent can ask the confessor (or even a different one) for a different penance.

If the "penitent" enters the confessional already planning to refuse to do penance, then that calls their contrition into question. Without contrition, there can be no forgiveness.

For me, the penance is to show my devotion to God, to bring about greater conversion, to offer satisfaction for the sins I have committed, and to strengthen my conscience against further sin.

Now, the Church has had an evolving idea on the relationship of penance and confession and forgiveness. I share the current view. We, too, are a Church of continual revelation  

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Once absolution is given, the sin is forgiven. Forgiveness is not contingent on penance. That would imply that we can somehow do something through our acts to gain forgiveness. It is freely given when we ask for it through Confession.

If one willingly refuses to do penance after Confession, the sin does not "return." It has been washed clean, as white as snow, when absolution was granted. What does happen, however, is the penitent has incurred a new sin: refusing penance.

Sometimes the penitent may not be comfortable with the penance. The penitent can ask the confessor (or even a different one) for a different penance.

If the "penitent" enters the confessional already planning to refuse to do penance, then that calls their contrition into question. Without contrition, there can be no forgiveness.

For me, the penance is to show my devotion to God, to bring about greater conversion, to offer satisfaction for the sins I have committed, and to strengthen my conscience against further sin.

Now, the Church has had an evolving idea on the relationship of penance and confession and forgiveness. I share the current view. We, too, are a Church of continual revelation  

Thanks for that! Makes logical sense and seems consistent. 

[Stargazer]

The Salt Lake Temple's renovation is changing it from a live-actor presentation to a film presentation, and thus increasing its capacity. Some of the changes are sad, such as the removal of the old murals which could not be preserved, but there are reasons to believe it's a good thing.

 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The Salt Lake Temple's renovation is changing it from a live-actor presentation to a film presentation, and thus increasing its capacity. Some of the changes are sad, such as the removal of the old murals which could not be preserved, but there are reasons to believe it's a good thing.

 

I'm looking forward to the open house! 

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm looking forward to the open house! 

I would be, too, if I anywhere near it! I'm like 3,000 miles away. Or is it 4,000?

 

[Dario_M]

I wish i could see the temple from the inside. I heard that the temple from Salt Lake City is the most beautiful one. I wish i could visited that temple. But unfortunetly i can't because i live 8000 km from Salt Lake City. 😭 I have a temple recomment so i cam visit every temple on the whole world. Here in the Netherlands we also have an temple. It's located in Den Haag.

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I wish i could see the temple from the inside. I heard that the temple from Salt Lake City is the most beautiful one. I wish i could visited that temple. But unfortunetly i can't because i live 8000 km from Salt Lake City. 😭 I have a temple recomment so i cam visit every temple on the whole world. Here in the Netherlands we also have a temple. It's located in Den Haag.

 Temple recommends will only allow you access to some of the temple.  They don’t let people wander around, but direct anyone to the location they are meant to be in.  The best time to see a temple even for recommend holding members would be during an Open House when anyone can see most of the temple.  They have tours and some areas are roped off.  
 

Your temple recommend gives you access I am guessing to the reception area and the baptismal area, but you wouldn’t be able to go where they do the endowments or sealings.

Added:  probably the very best way for a typical member to have access to most of the temple is to be a temple worker.  I have never been one, so just guessing here.  I assume there are still restricted areas, at least in the largest temples.

Edited September 30, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

This might be one of the best ways to visualize what it looks like….

There was a better video of the model, I will try and find it later.