Laman, Lemuel, Sam different Mother than Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph?

[ZealouslyStriving]

There is probably no definitive answer, but it is possible that Laman, Lemuel, and Sam had a different Mother than Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph?

I base this question on the the fact that the birthright blessings jumped over Sam to Nephi. If they had the same mother the birthright would've passed to the first obedient son - Sam. 

But if they had different mothers the birthright would've passed from the firstborn of the first wife to the firstborn of the second wife.

Perhaps the mother of Laman, Lemuel, and Sam died giving birth to Sam, and Sariah became Lehi's second wife and raised the youngsters as her own?

Thoughts?

Edited August 13, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[blackstrap]

Could be. I have wondered why there was Samuel the Lamanite.

[Dario_M]

I think that Alma and Moroni also had differend mothers. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

There is probably no definitive answer, but it is possible that Laman, Lemuel, and Sam had a different Mother than Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph?

I base this question on the the fact that the birthright blessings jumped over Sam to Nephi. If they had the same mother the birthright would've passed to the first obedient son - Sam. 

But if they had different mothers the birthright would've passed from the firstborn of the first wife to the firstborn of the second wife.

Perhaps the mother of Laman, Lemuel, and Sam died giving birth to Sam, and Sariah became Lehi's second wife and raised the youngsters as her own?

Thoughts?

I have heard this theory before, possibly here from you?

It is a good explanation imo for the total lack of affection (including it seems towards Sariah, Laman and Lemuel seemed to not be bothered by her suffering) plus the ease that Nephi has with stepping into a leadership role from the beginning (even if Laman attempted it first with Laban as would be his responsibility) with not a lot of deference to his older brothers as would typically be natural….though it is the older Nephi looking back and that could simply be his bias coming through.

https://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com/2011/03/10/book-of-mormon-are-laman-and-lemuel-half-brothers-to-nephi-and-sam-by-grego/

If Sam only knew Sariah as his mother even if he wasn’t her son, he would likely be more considerate of her.  If Laman and Lemuel were significantly older, they would remember their mother and perhaps she even helped start the conflict by being understandably resentful of the presence of the younger, new wife.  Laman and Lemuel might have been old enough they had little to do with Sariah.

Nephi not mentioning the first wife could have been a desire to ensure Sariah was viewed as a legitimate/primary wife, especially since it reflected on his legitimacy as leader.

It would also help explain how Sariah managed to have two more kids…if one assumes she was quite young when she married Lehi and then had Nephi (say 18), she could be still reasonably fertile when Nephi was 18 or 20, where if she was also the mother of the three oldest, that adds a probable 5 to 6 years or more to her age and Nephi has to be a lot younger when he gets married (he does describe himself as exceedingly young, but of large stature).  Sorenson puts him at 17 when they leave Jerusalem.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1018&context=mi&filename=6&type=additional

Sorenson sides on the older sons being Sariah’s even though recognizing this makes her long fertility as issue (especially if she didn’t have kids till she was 19 as he suggests).  This is based on Sariah as claiming all of them as her sons.

This could, however, simply mean Sariah was a loving step parent to the older boys and she saw them as hers even if not by blood.  
 

Nephi also says it’s an account of Lehi and his wife, Sariah, and his four sons, but Sorenson excuses that based its appropriate to their culture.

Some have speculated Joseph and Jacob had a different mother, unnamed, as it says Jacob begat two sons, though again this could be just the culture stressing the father’s relationship again and when on the ship it says Joseph and Jacob were aggrieved because of the suffering of their mother.  It is assumed this is Sariah since her suffering is mentioned, but it could be an additional wife who would of course also be upset given the problems.

Nephi could have assumed we knew all this because he mentioned it in the lost ‘116’ pages.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

I thought Nibley’s point of Laman and Lemuel being Arabic names and Sam and Nephi being Egyptian names interesting (see link).  Maybe Lehi’s first wife died in childbirth with Sam and Lehi was already married to Sariah, who then named Sam along with her own son Nephi.  That could also explain why the Nephites got into polygyny right at the beginning but the Lamanites didn’t…they saw themselves as victims of the second wife’s children usurping their role,while the Nephites saw themselves as pretty immediate results of polygyny.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Calm

[The Nehor]

Lehi should have read his Torah and known that you are not supposed to skip birthright sons for iniquity or any reason really. They put that in there to avoid having another Ishmael and Isaac or Esau and Jacob or Reuben and Joseph. So the Law corrects that but they just keep doing it.

I admit this is possible but it smacks way too much of inherited evil for my taste. Sure, Sam is seen as a good guy but he doesn’t even get a tribal name later. His seed is mashed into the Nephite tribe. I mean, even Zoram got his own tribe but Sam didn’t? And Zoram was gay! Oh wait, no, that was Orson Scott Card working out his issues. Never mind.

[the narrator]

A long while back I proposed that Joseph and Jacob were the children of Lehi's polygamous wife: https://loydo38.blogspot.com/2009/04/did-lehi-pick-up-second-wife-in.html

[ksfisher]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Sam is seen as a good guy but he doesn’t even get a tribal name later. His seed is mashed into the Nephite tribe. I mean, even Zoram got his own tribe but Sam didn’t?

I’ve always wondered if Sam didn’t have any male children, only daughters.  

[LoudmouthMormon]

Sam is a good guy in any universe.

Mr. Gamgee went down in history as just baaaaaarely qualifying as "one of the ringbearers".  And honestly, he never really wanted the recognition.  He was just happy to be him.    Maybe Sam-adopted-Nephite was the same way.   We LDS can easily get hung up on dominions and principalities and being judges in Israel and all that, but humility is a virtue, ya know...

#MakeAmericaSamAgain

Edited August 13, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[ksfisher]

5 hours ago, the narrator said:

A long while back I proposed that Joseph and Jacob were the children of Lehi's polygamous wife: https://loydo38.blogspot.com/2009/04/did-lehi-pick-up-second-wife-in.html

Is there historical evidence of Israelite males living in Jerusalem at the time of Lehi having more than one (living) wife?

[CV75]

On 8/12/2024 at 11:43 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

There is probably no definitive answer, but it is possible that Laman, Lemuel, and Sam had a different Mother than Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph?

I base this question on the the fact that the birthright blessings jumped over Sam to Nephi. If they had the same mother the birthright would've passed to the first obedient son - Sam. 

But if they had different mothers the birthright would've passed from the firstborn of the first wife to the firstborn of the second wife.

Perhaps the mother of Laman, Lemuel, and Sam died giving birth to Sam, and Sariah became Lehi's second wife and raised the youngsters as her own?

Thoughts?

1 Nephi 5 seems to show that Sariah considered them all "my sons".

[GoCeltics]

On 8/13/2024 at 9:50 AM, The Nehor said:

Lehi should have read his Torah and known that you are not supposed to skip birthright sons for iniquity or any reason really.

Did the firstborn of all the Jacobite tribes have the birthright or was it unavailable to Lehi because he did originate from Manasseh?

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

1 Nephi 5 seems to show that Sariah considered them all "my sons".

Not all stepmother's are wicked.

🧹🧙

[CV75]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Not all stepmother's are wicked.

🧹🧙

Yes, and in the same vein, since there is no record of her death, she must have been translated into the serifotic realm as a type or the actual shekhinah embodiment of the Malkhut hypostasis of God.  

Tradition has it that any woman who raised a son or sons is considered the mother; at the same time, "yichud" would prevent her from being alone with these step/adopted sons after the age of nine (although there has been leniency in some cases where the she began raising them well before the age of nine). Since there is no text that Sariah was ever alone with any of her children (and the record begins with the sons being older than nine), a very noteworthy event under the religious observance tensions within the family, it is likely she bore as well as raised them all. I don't think Nephi would have let the infraction go unmentioned to protect his mother's image, even though it would have bolstered her favored-wife position for his inheritance.

[The Nehor]

On 8/13/2024 at 5:37 PM, ksfisher said:

Is there historical evidence of Israelite males living in Jerusalem at the time of Lehi having more than one (living) wife?

Yes, but as far as we can tell it was an aristocratic thing indulged in by the very wealthy. Lehi probably wasn’t that high up in the pecking order. It is possible though.

The counterargument is that if Lehi had multiple wives or some concubines it probably would have come up in Jacob’s sermon on not having multiple wives. Jacob even says that the law given to the people not to have multiple wives came from Lehi.

Edited August 15, 2024 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

On 8/13/2024 at 1:03 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Sam is a good guy in any universe.

Mr. Gamgee went down in history as just baaaaaarely qualifying as "one of the ringbearers".  And honestly, he never really wanted the recognition.  He was just happy to be him.    Maybe Sam-adopted-Nephite was the same way.   We LDS can easily get hung up on dominions and principalities and being judges in Israel and all that, but humility is a virtue, ya know...

#MakeAmericaSamAgain

Also a bisexual icon what with Frodo and Rose.

*duck and cover*

[LoudmouthMormon]

"What would their kids look like?"

[firepatch36]

Was there a kind of Levirate marriage but the other way around? As in, if Sariah's sister married Lehi, had three sons then died, would Sariah if still single then marry Lehi? This would make Laman, Lemuel, and Sam not just stepchildren of Sariah but also nephews that she would have presumably known since birth. The fact they are referred to as her children even if not biologically speaking wouldn't then be a problem, I'd think, if she knew them since birth, adopted them and biologically related to them.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, firepatch36 said:

Was there a kind of Levirate marriage but the other way around? As in, if Sariah's sister married Lehi, had three sons then died, would Sariah if still single then marry Lehi? This would make Laman, Lemuel, and Sam not just stepchildren of Sariah but also nephews that she would have presumably known since birth. The fact they are referred to as her children even if not biologically speaking wouldn't then be a problem, I'd think, if she knew them since birth, adopted them and biologically related to them.

I was thinking there might be some blood relationship that made it easy for Sariah to categorize all of Lehi’s children as “her sons”.  Something similar to how grandsons and other male relatives are lumped under “son” in the Bible.   Then there is how Leah and Rachel saw themselves as the mothers of the sons of their handmaids.  Maybe Laman and Lemuel were sons of a concubine or lesser wife, who was married first but of lesser status.  That would really explain the emnity.  But there is the vibe that Lehi didn’t approve of polygamy, so I see this as unlikely though I suppose this could be a result of experience.  

Edited August 19, 2024 by Calm

[manol]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

I was thinking there might be some blood relationship that made it easy for Sariah to categorize all of Lego’s children as “her sons”. 

Lego was my favorite too.

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, manol said:

Lego was my favorite too.

I corrected it twice and it still insisted, lol.

I guess I spend too much time writing about Lego elsewhere.