Perfectionism and works

[MiserereNobis]

On 6/20/2024 at 9:04 AM, MustardSeed said:

I’d like to share some personal thoughts today. I go through waves of feeling spiritually connected and spiritually disconnected. Right now I am spiritually disconnected, mostly because I’ve been traveling a lot and also because I don’t have a calling. 
Or at least that’s what I think. Which is interesting because as I type, I’m linking that assessment to the topic that I wanted to talk about. (wow.)

I grew up in an environment that was supported by church and family that suggested that love is connected to accomplishment, service, and work.  That is ingrained in me and imprinted deeply.

Being in my 50s now, I noticed the church shifting to a place that I could’ve really used a long time ago. More attempts for a relationship with the savior,  less focus on “ doing” all the things.

I did all the things. All of them. I prayed daily, went to all my seminary classes, always attended church, wore dresses on Sunday, never broke. The sabbath never drank never had sex never broke rules without tremendous guilt. I volunteered. Paid all my tithing.

I did all of these things and more because I wanted to go to the celestial kingdom and nothing less was good enough. The amount of guilt carried around for my minor flaws is mind blowing to me today.

So here is what I wanted to share. I am not a quotes girl- as a therapist, I find them shallow and even at times insulting and mostly innacurate anyway lol- but some things clicked for me as I read the following: 

“Perfection is the defense mechanism for children who have had to work hard.”

 

as a therapist, I understand that our defense mechanisms help to keep us “safe” when we are children. But they do not serve us in adulthood- they harm. 
 

So understanding that in my childhood, I was a perfectionist, I examine the messaging I received (whether it was intentional or not) that my acceptability was centered on what I was doing. Not what I was.

I love the new focus of the church- a personal relationship with a savior and less focus on petty rules and harsh consequences. But for me, it comes late. 
The church does not feel like home to me anymore because in spite of all of my efforts, I fall terribly short of the ideal. In my mind, the ideal is the only reward. Period everything else is the consolation prize for “free agency“ (Que the game show ‘wa wa waaaaaaa’

I hope to be the first to play the new hymn as a special musical number Amazing Grace in Sacrament meeting. It is deeply meaningful to me because it represents something that could save me from myself. I’m nowhere near feeling safe with it. But wouldn’t it be grand if I could reverse years of indoctrination. 
 

I know probably most of you have not had the same experience. Sometimes I wonder if we even attended the same church in the 70s and early 80s. But this was my experience.  And I struggle. 
 

 

Catholicism deals with this issue. It's called "scrupulosity." It has been examined and worked with for centuries (the advantage of an old religion). Here's an interesting quote about it:

Quote

Perhaps the best antidote to scrupulosity is the awareness that God’s grace is not easily dislodged by our sinful actions, much less by our smaller imperfections. If we think we can easily lose so great a gift, we are guilty of undue pride, which often masks itself as humility: “I am a horrible sinner and incapable of God’s love.” That is a false humility by which we make ourselves more powerful than we really are and minimize the sovereign power of God and his gift of grace. Our venial sins are no match for God’s grace.

Focusing on grace, letting go, and finding a personal relationship with God that does not involve checking boxes have all been suggested as ways to be free of scruples.

[MustardSeed]

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Catholicism deals with this issue. It's called "scrupulosity." It has been examined and worked with for centuries (the advantage of an old religion). Here's an interesting quote about it:

Focusing on grace, letting go, and finding a personal relationship with God that does not involve checking boxes have all been suggested as ways to be free of scruples.

I’m familiar with the term scrupulosity.  Your three remedies are my goals.  

[Rain]

I've been thinking a lot of doing verses being lately.

Gregory Boyle, in his books talks a lot about God loving you as you are.  Not that he doesn't want better for you (he works with gang members), but truly understanding God's love for you and where you are now.

In Atomic Habits, James Clear talks about goals not being the great things we often think they are.  That we should look at being the person we want to be. Not "someday I'm going to run a marathon", but "I am a runner so I will put my running shoes on" (this is obviously simplified from all he says).

When Gregory Boyle's gang members start to feel God's love for them they naturally stretch and grow.  Boyle and all the people at Homeboy Industries provide ways to help them grow - jobs, tattoo removal, parenting classes etc. No one is forced to take those opportunities. They are not told they need to do them.  They are told God loves them as they are and are invited to participate in those opportunities.  They are invited to be men and women who work.  Be men and women without gang tattoos.  Be good parents.  

As I've thought more and more about being rather than doing or not doing I find I am eating more foods that make me feel good (vegetables usually) or clearing off the counter because I like myself better when it's clear or stay in the pool swimming a little longer because I like how it feels to swim or sitting outside in the morning in the sun pondering and praying because I like that connection with God.  Totally different than a long to do list so I can do all the things that make me more "perfect". 

God's grace isn't there to give us a neverending list of to dos because we failed to attain perfection.  God's grace is there telling us he loves us as we are and giving us opportunities to just put on our running shoes and be like him. 

Edited June 25, 2024 by Rain

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I've been thinking a lot of doing verses being lately.

Gregory Boyle, in his books talks a lot about God loving you as you are.  Not that he doesn't want better for you (he works with gang members), but truly understanding God's love for you and where you are now.

In Atomic Habits, James Clear talks about goals not being the great things we often think they are.  That we should look at being the person we want to be. Not "someday I'm going to run a marathon", but "I am a runner so I will put my running shoes on" (this is obviously simplified from all he says).

When Gregory Boyle's gang members start to feel God's love for them they naturally stretch and grow.  Boyle and all the people at Homeboy Industries provide ways to help them grow - jobs, tattoo removal, parenting classes etc. No one is forced to take those opportunities. They are not told they need to do them.  They are told God loves them as they are and are invited to participate in those opportunities.  They are invited to be men and women who work.  Be men and women without gang tattoos.  Be good parents.  

As I've thought more and more about being rather than doing or not doing I find I am eating more foods that make me feel good (vegetables usually) or clearing off the counter because I like myself better when it's clear or stay in the pool swimming a little longer because I like how it feels to swim or sitting outside in the morning in the sun pondering and praying because I like that connection with God.  Totally different than a long to do list so I can do all the things that make me more "perfect". 

God's grace isn't there to give us a neverending list of to dos because we failed to attain perfection.  God's grace is there telling us he loves us as we are and giving us opportunities to just put on our running shoes and be like him. 

Beautiful 

[Stargazer]

On 6/20/2024 at 8:04 AM, MustardSeed said:

I’d like to share some personal thoughts today. I go through waves of feeling spiritually connected and spiritually disconnected. Right now I am spiritually disconnected, mostly because I’ve been traveling a lot and also because I don’t have a calling. 
Or at least that’s what I think. Which is interesting because as I type, I’m linking that assessment to the topic that I wanted to talk about. (wow.)

I grew up in an environment that was supported by church and family that suggested that love is connected to accomplishment, service, and work.  That is ingrained in me and imprinted deeply.

Being in my 50s now, I noticed the church shifting to a place that I could’ve really used a long time ago. More attempts for a relationship with the savior,  less focus on “ doing” all the things.

I did all the things. All of them. I prayed daily, went to all my seminary classes, always attended church, wore dresses on Sunday, never broke. The sabbath never drank never had sex never broke rules without tremendous guilt. I volunteered. Paid all my tithing.

I did all of these things and more because I wanted to go to the celestial kingdom and nothing less was good enough. The amount of guilt carried around for my minor flaws is mind blowing to me today.

So here is what I wanted to share. I am not a quotes girl- as a therapist, I find them shallow and even at times insulting and mostly innacurate anyway lol- but some things clicked for me as I read the following: 

“Perfection is the defense mechanism for children who have had to work hard.”

 

as a therapist, I understand that our defense mechanisms help to keep us “safe” when we are children. But they do not serve us in adulthood- they harm. 
 

So understanding that in my childhood, I was a perfectionist, I examine the messaging I received (whether it was intentional or not) that my acceptability was centered on what I was doing. Not what I was.

I love the new focus of the church- a personal relationship with a savior and less focus on petty rules and harsh consequences. But for me, it comes late. 
The church does not feel like home to me anymore because in spite of all of my efforts, I fall terribly short of the ideal. In my mind, the ideal is the only reward. Period everything else is the consolation prize for “free agency“ (Que the game show ‘wa wa waaaaaaa’

I hope to be the first to play the new hymn as a special musical number Amazing Grace in Sacrament meeting. It is deeply meaningful to me because it represents something that could save me from myself. I’m nowhere near feeling safe with it. But wouldn’t it be grand if I could reverse years of indoctrination. 
 

I know probably most of you have not had the same experience. Sometimes I wonder if we even attended the same church in the 70s and early 80s. But this was my experience.  And I struggle. 
 

 

I've been a member since 1966, when I joined as a 14 year old, the sole member in my family until my little brother joined me four years later. I've been an active member of the church except for a brief 2.5 years when we lived near Toronto where I had no idea where church was. I understand that many members feel that perfection has been "on demand" in their church lives. But for some reason I never felt that way. It always seemed to me that we had to do the best we could, but knew that perfection was not in the cards. On my mission (to Germany in the mid-70s) I knew a few highly spiritual fellow missionaries, one of whom was my mission president. But I could tell they were not perfect: though they strove to do the best they could. One of my fellow missionaries was eventually called to be a general authority, and I could tell at the time I served with him that he was someone special -- but again, not perfect, just doing his best. He had a lot of gifts, though, including intelligence, humility, and a willingness to work, so perhaps more was expected of him. And he put those gifts to use. One of my companions was a man of some personal quibbles (as was I, of course), and I could see the imperfections in him. But he did the best he could -- together we managed to bring one stellar family into the church. I reconnected with him many years later, when he was near the end of his life, and there he was, still doing his best. After he passed, praises of love and appreciation poured into his Facebook page from all the people to whom he had been a blessing and an example. He had served as a bishop and had evidently done his best, and that best was surely good enough. I am afraid that I am leaving out the many sisters in the gospel whom I have known who have likewise done their best, none of whom were perfect. One of whom was my wife, Waltraut.

One of characteristics that separate those who will be graded worthy of the Celestial Kingdom is mentioned in one of the negative characteristics that grade those who are worthy of the Terrestrial. It's found in DC 76:79

These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

What makes a person valiant? Perfection in this life is not in the cards, because that cannot come but later. I feel that the defining characteristic of those who are valiant in the testimony of Jesus is this: they give it the best they can. And there's no need for us to walk faster than we can; we are all limited in our various capacities, and when it comes to mercy, one of the people we need to be merciful towards, is ourselves. 

In the end, we have this:

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)

And don't beat yourself up too much!

[MustardSeed]

Thank you- 

 

This idea of doing the best we can- is super confusing to me.  It seems to me as a therapist that EVERYONE is doing the best they can- and EVERYONE could do better.  😩 

 

[Tacenda]

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I've been a member since 1966, when I joined as a 14 year old, the sole member in my family until my little brother joined me four years later. I've been an active member of the church except for a brief 2.5 years when we lived near Toronto where I had no idea where church was. I understand that many members feel that perfection has been "on demand" in their church lives. But for some reason I never felt that way. It always seemed to me that we had to do the best we could, but knew that perfection was not in the cards. On my mission (to Germany in the mid-70s) I knew a few highly spiritual fellow missionaries, one of whom was my mission president. But I could tell they were not perfect: though they strove to do the best they could. One of my fellow missionaries was eventually called to be a general authority, and I could tell at the time I served with him that he was someone special -- but again, not perfect, just doing his best. He had a lot of gifts, though, including intelligence, humility, and a willingness to work, so perhaps more was expected of him. And he put those gifts to use. One of my companions was a man of some personal quibbles (as was I, of course), and I could see the imperfections in him. But he did the best he could -- together we managed to bring one stellar family into the church. I reconnected with him many years later, when he was near the end of his life, and there he was, still doing his best. After he passed, praises of love and appreciation poured into his Facebook page from all the people to whom he had been a blessing and an example. He had served as a bishop and had evidently done his best, and that best was surely good enough. I am afraid that I am leaving out the many sisters in the gospel whom I have known who have likewise done their best, none of whom were perfect. One of whom was my wife, Waltraut.

One of characteristics that separate those who will be graded worthy of the Celestial Kingdom is mentioned in one of the negative characteristics that grade those who are worthy of the Terrestrial. It's found in DC 76:79

These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

What makes a person valiant? Perfection in this life is not in the cards, because that cannot come but later. I feel that the defining characteristic of those who are valiant in the testimony of Jesus is this: they give it the best they can. And there's no need for us to walk faster than we can; we are all limited in our various capacities, and when it comes to mercy, one of the people we need to be merciful towards, is ourselves. 

In the end, we have this:

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)

And don't beat yourself up too much!

And men running the church, so there will be good advice and bad, and a lot of times members sort of just do what they want haha.

 

[JVW]

One thing I've been reminded of as I've followed this conversation is the concept of "then will I make weak things become strong" from the book of Ether in the Book of Mormon. I feel like my perspective on this idea is somewhat unique when I consider thoughts others have shared about this concept over the years. Here are a few examples of weak things becoming strong.

The U.S. Constitutional Conventions lasted 3 days and involved 50 men. It was a very volatile conference with a lot of discussion, debate, and argument. After the convention ended the 50 men celebrated at a nearby tavern. Their alcohol bill, converted to today's currency, was around $30,000, and they drank it all in one night. A man who doesn't drink cannot drink that much alcohol without dying. You have to have a really well-trained liver to handle that much alcohol. So it is easy to infer that there was a lot of drinking during the convention. Yet, the U.S. Constitution is not only remarkable and believed to be a document inspired by God, Elder Dallin H. Oaks dedicated an entire conference talk to the U.S. Constitution and ... bore testimony of it as a divinely authored document. How can I reconcile god-fearing men, who were obviously drinking and in their weakness, authoring such a remarkable document? The answer is "Then will I make weak things become strong".

This second example may be a little controversial because I believe the Dead Sea Scrolls over D&C 132 and believe that King David was forgiven in the case of Uriah and Bath-sheba. But whether he was forgiven or not doesn't change the powerful example of this story. King David was a mighty king and did many wonderful things. But he was caught in a moment of weakness lusting after Bath-sheba and as a result he committed murder. Yet, if that had never happened, Christ wouldn't have been born, because he was related to King David through Bath-sheba. Even if the sin was never forgiven, God chose to come to earth through the bloodline created out of King David's weakest moment.

God works with us -in- our weakness. He doesn't have to heal it, or ignore it, just by living our lives the best we know how He can perform His mightiest works. I had a difficult time for many years in the church, especially on my mission, because I didn't have any KPIs or metrics to compare myself to. I couldn't compare baptismal rate as a missionary. I couldn't compare myself against my companion. There is literally no benchmark that I can use to tell if I'm being a good member. I could think that the temple recommend interview questions are a good benchmark, but Christ said that there will be many who profess to do many works in Christ name but they never knew Him. And there are a lot of tares in the church. Am I one of those people? Only God knows. I live in a very goal-oriented and "scientific method minded" culture and so it's been very difficult to try not to judge myself and compare myself against "what the latest research or polls suggest". I have hope that one day God will let me know whether I will be receiving Celestial glory or not, but until that day I honestly have no idea, and I may not know until the day of judgment.

For me, the greatest miracle of all is that Christ can actually forgive me and heal me. I believe that this is possible and I hope that one day I can experience that and gain a firm witness of Christ's divinity. Until that day I will keep on hoping and trying my best to act on my righteous desires (my best is honestly pretty lousy, I often feel like a turtle and my motto this year is "slow is smooth and smooth is fast")

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, JVW said:

Yet, if that had never happened, Christ wouldn't have been born, because he was related to King David through Bath-sheba.

Just curious here….Do you believe he wouldn’t have been born at all or he wouldn’t have been born with that particular heritage?  If the former, what would stop Christ from just choosing another line to descend from in your view?
 

As a side note….My mother made the observation that Christ’s lineage had pretty much all the possible sins within it (good chance it had examples of all of the categories even if a few specific ones were missed) which she thought as highly appropriate as he was in essence cleansing his genetic/genealogical heritage that he carried within himself, making the burden of sin a very personal thing for him even though he never sinned himself. And of course it is a cleansing that gets expanded to entire human family, not just Jesus’ own blood.

[JVW]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Just curious here….Do you believe he wouldn’t have been born at all or he wouldn’t have been born with that particular heritage?  If the former, what would stop Christ from just choosing another line to descend from in your view?

I don't normally consider hypotheticals like this, they hurt my brain, but I'll take a stab at it.

I think this question ties into the idea that God could have found a replacement for Joseph Smith if Joseph failed at his mission. I don't believe that. I don't believe that God has a plan B. He only has a plan A. I don't believe there are any replacements if people live life the wrong way. This doesn't mean that God requires people to do evil things in order to progress His work. But He certainly can "make all things work together for the good of those that love God". (As a side note, a really interesting question is whether or not the devil is necessary for God's plan. And if God is an infinite being of love and foreknowledge, why did He choose to bring Lucifer into existence knowing everything that would happen as a result of that decision? The only conclusion I can come to is that it's better to exist, have agency, and dwell forever in Outer Darkness than it is to never be brought into existence, but I digress.)

God is not reactionary, he is not acted upon. A quote that I've heard recently that I really like communicates this idea nicely, "There is never a time when someone dies that God responds with "Oh no! I'm surprised to see you, I wasn't expecting you yet!" His omniscience does not overrule agency. I view prophecy not as a prediction, but a declaration of an event that already occurred. I believe that Mary was foreordained to be the mother of God. Christ could not have come from another line because of the hundreds of Old Testament prophecies. If He was going to spring from another line it would have been prophesied and we would now be talking about how impossible it is to consider Jesus being related to King David or Bath-sheba.

So in regards to King David, did God have a plan B if King David didn't murder Uriah? No. Did God's plan require King David to sin? No. Did God do something profoundly powerful and beautiful as a result of David's sin? Yes. I can't imagine I'm making any sense, but God doesn't make any sense to me, He's beyond my comprehension which is why these kind of hypothetical questions are hard for me to answer.

[JVW]

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

As a side note….My mother made the observation that Christ’s lineage had pretty much all the possible sins within it (good chance it had examples of all of the categories even if a few specific ones were missed) which she thought as highly appropriate as he was in essence cleansing his genetic/genealogical heritage that he carried within himself, making the burden of sin a very personal thing for him even though he never sinned himself. And of course it is a cleansing that gets expanded to entire human family, not just Jesus’ own blood.

My favorite story that typifies Christ is the story of Nephi slaying Laban in order to get the brass plates. In that story Laban is the type of Christ. When Jesus suffered in the garden He became regarded by God as the ultimate, eternal sinner despite his perfection. It isn't often that I can see Christ in the villain of the story, up until recently the devil was the type for the villain (now the devil has become the type for the hero in much of modern storytelling) so I really appreciate seeing that correlation in the story of Laban.

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Thank you- 

 

This idea of doing the best we can- is super confusing to me.  It seems to me as a therapist that EVERYONE is doing the best they can- and EVERYONE could do better.  😩 

 

Yes!  This has always been my struggle with those ideas of doing the best we can--because I can always do better.  And if I can always do better then I'm never doing the best I can unless I am doing everything right and practically not sinning at all (because though that's not probably, it does seem very possible)

There's a hard conundrum between this idea that God expects us to make mistakes and learn and grow through opposition and choosing wrong sometimes, and the need to always choose the right, do our best, strive for perfection...

 

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

How can I reconcile god-fearing men, who were obviously drinking and in their weakness, authoring such a remarkable document?

Don’t forget Jesus drank and made some really good wine (and lots of it!). 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

think this question ties into the idea that God could have found a replacement for Joseph Smith if Joseph failed at his mission. I don't believe that. I don't believe that God has a plan B

Well, there was Joseph Knight Sr and Jr nearby….  
 

https://rsc.byu.edu/joseph-smith-prophet-man/close-friends-witnesses-joseph-smith-joseph-knight-families

Quote

God is not reactionary, he is not acted upon.

Not sure what you mean by this.  It sounds like you are saying he is unaffected by anything and I would hope that is untrue because then our love for him would not have value for him.  I like the idea God wants us to love him because it makes him happy.  He may not be crushed if we don’t, more like more happiness experiences added to his all over joyful state.

Edited June 27, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

? Yes. I can't imagine I'm making any sense, but God doesn't make any sense to me, He's beyond my comprehension which is why these kind of hypothetical questions are hard for me to answer.

The only problem I see with your paradigm is it makes us determined, how do we have choice if my our natures we will always make the same choice?

It is not a unique issue, it’s been a question I have had since I first encountered it eons ago due to discussions in my philosophy of psychology classes.

One can resolve it some by saying we are given freedom to be ourselves by God, not to randomly behave.

Edited June 27, 2024 by Calm

[JVW]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not sure what you mean by this.  It sounds like you are saying he is unaffected by anything and I would hope that is untrue because then our love for him would not have value for him.  I like the idea God wants us to love him because it makes him happy.  He may not be crushed if we don’t, more like more happiness experiences added to his all over joyful state.

A lot of people frame events that have happened throughout Biblical history as God reacting. For example, God didn't plan for the Great Flood to happen, His hand was forced to flood the Earth because of how wicked the world became. And that wickedness may have been a result of God allowing people to live too long so He shortened everyone's average lifespan. I've heard a lot of people express this general sentiment. That something happens and God wasn't planning on doing what He was going to do and He reacts to the thing that happens. But I don't believe that God is ever surprised.

Here is another way for me to try and explain my view reconciling agency and God's foreknowledge. Let's say that you record a home video of an event that occurs in your life, like a family member graduating from High School. You can watch that recording and note every detail of the event that happened, and you can communicate this to people. Everyone that's in that video is there of their own volition as a consequence of their own decision making, and everyone involved experienced warm feelings together and you may still get warm feelings every time you watch it. If you tell someone about this event, you are recollecting an event that has already occurred. Nobody is questioning whether your knowledge of this event is infringing on anyone's agency or your ability to have relationships. So picture this, but with God, and to us the event hasn't happened yet, but to Him it has. That is how I envision this sort of thing.

So God saw the end from the beginning. He's all-powerful, all-knowing, all-benevolent, and perfect. So He makes a plan and includes the results of everything He's witnessed, and it's perfect so no backup plan is needed. Then every once in awhile He tells someone about something He saw and we record that as prophecy. It inevitably occurs, not because we are being controlled, not because God is pulling strings to make it happen, but because God observed it and is simply stating what He saw.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, JVW said:

A lot of people frame events that have happened throughout Biblical history as God reacting. For example, God didn't plan for the Great Flood to happen, His hand was forced to flood the Earth because of how wicked the world became. And that wickedness may have been a result of God allowing people to live too long so He shortened everyone's average lifespan. I've heard a lot of people express this general sentiment. That something happens and God wasn't planning on doing what He was going to do and He reacts to the thing that happens. But I don't believe that God is ever surprised.

Here is another way for me to try and explain my view reconciling agency and God's foreknowledge. Let's say that you record a home video of an event that occurs in your life, like a family member graduating from High School. You can watch that recording and note every detail of the event that happened, and you can communicate this to people. Everyone that's in that video is there of their own volition as a consequence of their own decision making, and everyone involved experienced warm feelings together and you may still get warm feelings every time you watch it. If you tell someone about this event, you are recollecting an event that has already occurred. Nobody is questioning whether your knowledge of this event is infringing on anyone's agency or your ability to have relationships. So picture this, but with God, and to us the event hasn't happened yet, but to Him it has. That is how I envision this sort of thing.

So God saw the end from the beginning. He's all-powerful, all-knowing, all-benevolent, and perfect. So He makes a plan and includes the results of everything He's witnessed, and it's perfect so no backup plan is needed. Then every once in awhile He tells someone about something He saw and we record that as prophecy. It inevitably occurs, not because we are being controlled, not because God is pulling strings to make it happen, but because God observed it and is simply stating what He saw.

This idea meshes with the notion that the past, present, and future is continually before God.  It doesn't make any sense to us but if time works differently in God's sphere and with His knowledge, then it's a reasonable idea.

I still don't know if I agree with the concept of no plan B's though.  On one hand, it's a very comforting idea but on the other hand, the existence of patriarchal blessings would seem to counter it.

For example, my blessing promises me certain things, if I'm obedient to God's direction and follow His commandments (etc., etc.), but if I decide not to live that kind of life and don't receive those blessings, wouldn't God's actions in the life I do chose to live be a "plan B"?  I have a friend who went way off the rails after high school and made some destructive choices (some that hurt others and that can't be taken back or fixed).  Her blessing promised amazing things in her life that did not happen because of the choices she made.  She's doing good now and has many blessings but some that were promised are just not possible now.  That sounds like a Plan B situation to me.  

Wouldn't inheriting the telestial or terrestial kingdom be a bit of a Plan B as well?  It's not what was offered or possible but still good stuff.

Maybe I'm not understanding the idea of no plan B's correctly though.

[JVW]

@bluebell
I don't know much about Patriarchal Blessings beyond these two things: your lineage is declared and you're told that you'll go to heaven if you are righteous. Outside of that, I don't know what the rest of the content is. Is it fortune telling? Is it a motivational tool? Is it prophecy? I don't know. I know there are many members that view them as fortune telling, but they'll never say as much or admit that that is how they view them.

The Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms are both part of heaven. Everyone who chose to participate in God's plan will receive a resurrected body and abide in God's glory (excepting perdition). They are part of plan A. It's difficult to explain unless you've experienced it, but the Telestial Glory is beyond comprehension in love, joy, and peace. Nobody there will feel like they got the short end of the stick from God. The hard part about going to the Telestial Kingdom is the 1000 year period in which one will suffer the consequences of their own sins because they didn't allow Christ to do it on their behalf.

A friend of mine, we'll call them Angel, grew up without a father. Her dad worked for the FBI and passed away when her mom was pregnant with her. There were so many days growing up that Angel would pray and wish to have just 1 minute with her dad to say, "hi". She would open the door on the way back from school and eagerly peer inside hoping that he would be sitting in a chair reading the newspaper. After she hit puberty she decided that to get closer to her dad she should get closer to law enforcement, so she broke the law and got arrested. The arresting officer asked her where her dad was, and she explained that he was dead. He responded, "He must be really disappointed in you." It shattered her heart to hear that and she spiraled into drugs and all sorts of things as a way to cope. It wasn't until many years later that she would return to the church.

Angel is fully aware that if God didn't take her dad when He did, and let him live to raise his daughter, that she would have had an entirely different life. Maybe if her dad didn't die she would have become a general authority. Maybe she would have participated in the salvation of thousands of more souls than she currently has. We can never know. But she is also fully aware that God knows this and was walking with her every breath she has taken her entire life. Perhaps we do miss out on blessings declared in our PB if we spend some time in rebellion against God. Perhaps the Patriarch was having a bad day and just said some crap that he felt like saying that was never intended to come to pass. No matter what, God makes His decisions and some of them can seem awful and impact our lives in a huge way which we respond rebelliously to. But He is keenly aware of us, and always gives us more than we deserve.



 

[Rain]

26 minutes ago, JVW said:

@bluebell
I don't know much about Patriarchal Blessings beyond these two things: your lineage is declared and you're told that you'll go to heaven if you are righteous. Outside of that, I don't know what the rest of the content is. Is it fortune telling? Is it a motivational tool? Is it prophecy? I don't know. I know there are many members that view them as fortune telling, but they'll never say as much or admit that that is how they view them.

The Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms are both part of heaven. Everyone who chose to participate in God's plan will receive a resurrected body and abide in God's glory (excepting perdition). They are part of plan A. It's difficult to explain unless you've experienced it, but the Telestial Glory is beyond comprehension in love, joy, and peace. Nobody there will feel like they got the short end of the stick from God. The hard part about going to the Telestial Kingdom is the 1000 year period in which one will suffer the consequences of their own sins because they didn't allow Christ to do it on their behalf.

 

The hard part of the Telestial kingdom is you don't get to be with your family because you didn't choose to be with them in the Celestial kingdom as President Nelson said.  

"Thus, if we unwisely choose to live telestial laws now, we are choosing to be resurrected with a telestial body. We are choosing not to live with our families forever."

 

26 minutes ago, JVW said:

A friend of mine, we'll call them Angel, grew up without a father. Her dad worked for the FBI and passed away when her mom was pregnant with her. There were so many days growing up that Angel would pray and wish to have just 1 minute with her dad to say, "hi". She would open the door on the way back from school and eagerly peer inside hoping that he would be sitting in a chair reading the newspaper. After she hit puberty she decided that to get closer to her dad she should get closer to law enforcement, so she broke the law and got arrested. The arresting officer asked her where her dad was, and she explained that he was dead. He responded, "He must be really disappointed in you." It shattered her heart to hear that and she spiraled into drugs and all sorts of things as a way to cope. It wasn't until many years later that she would return to the church.

Angel is fully aware that if God didn't take her dad when He did, and let him live to raise his daughter, that she would have had an entirely different life. Maybe if her dad didn't die she would have become a general authority. Maybe she would have participated in the salvation of thousands of more souls than she currently has. We can never know. But she is also fully aware that God knows this and was walking with her every breath she has taken her entire life. Perhaps we do miss out on blessings declared in our PB if we spend some time in rebellion against God. Perhaps the Patriarch was having a bad day and just said some crap that he felt like saying that was never intended to come to pass. No matter what, God makes His decisions and some of them can seem awful and impact our lives in a huge way which we respond rebelliously to. But He is keenly aware of us, and always gives us more than we deserve.



 

 

[bluebell]

37 minutes ago, JVW said:

@bluebell
I don't know much about Patriarchal Blessings beyond these two things: your lineage is declared and you're told that you'll go to heaven if you are righteous. Outside of that, I don't know what the rest of the content is. Is it fortune telling? Is it a motivational tool? Is it prophecy? I don't know. I know there are many members that view them as fortune telling, but they'll never say as much or admit that that is how they view them.

The Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms are both part of heaven. Everyone who chose to participate in God's plan will receive a resurrected body and abide in God's glory (excepting perdition). They are part of plan A. It's difficult to explain unless you've experienced it, but the Telestial Glory is beyond comprehension in love, joy, and peace. Nobody there will feel like they got the short end of the stick from God. The hard part about going to the Telestial Kingdom is the 1000 year period in which one will suffer the consequences of their own sins because they didn't allow Christ to do it on their behalf.

A friend of mine, we'll call them Angel, grew up without a father. Her dad worked for the FBI and passed away when her mom was pregnant with her. There were so many days growing up that Angel would pray and wish to have just 1 minute with her dad to say, "hi". She would open the door on the way back from school and eagerly peer inside hoping that he would be sitting in a chair reading the newspaper. After she hit puberty she decided that to get closer to her dad she should get closer to law enforcement, so she broke the law and got arrested. The arresting officer asked her where her dad was, and she explained that he was dead. He responded, "He must be really disappointed in you." It shattered her heart to hear that and she spiraled into drugs and all sorts of things as a way to cope. It wasn't until many years later that she would return to the church.

Angel is fully aware that if God didn't take her dad when He did, and let him live to raise his daughter, that she would have had an entirely different life. Maybe if her dad didn't die she would have become a general authority. Maybe she would have participated in the salvation of thousands of more souls than she currently has. We can never know. But she is also fully aware that God knows this and was walking with her every breath she has taken her entire life. Perhaps we do miss out on blessings declared in our PB if we spend some time in rebellion against God. Perhaps the Patriarch was having a bad day and just said some crap that he felt like saying that was never intended to come to pass. No matter what, God makes His decisions and some of them can seem awful and impact our lives in a huge way which we respond rebelliously to. But He is keenly aware of us, and always gives us more than we deserve.



 

I agree, but none of that really deals with my point.

I've heard this "there is no plan B.  Whatever happens was always Plan A" before but the idea that everything always goes exactly how God would want/choose for it to go, when there is such a thing as agency, doesn't make that much sense to me.

I agree that just because something hard happens in our life, that doesn't automatically mean that it wasn't Plan A all along; it's the concept of it never being Plan B that I guess I'm pushing back against.  "Never" and "always" are big promises/claims to make.   

Was it always God's plan that your friend Angel get arrested and spiral into drugs, for example?  Was that Plan A?  Or is the life that she is pursuing after overcoming that a Plan B?

(I should clarify that just because something is a Plan B doesn't, from my perspective, make it less than Plan A, it just makes it different than Plan A)

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, Rain said:

The hard part of the Telestial kingdom is you don't get to be with your family because you didn't choose to be with them in the Celestial kingdom as President Nelson said.  

"Thus, if we unwisely choose to live telestial laws now, we are choosing to be resurrected with a telestial body. We are choosing not to live with our families forever."

 

 

And choosing not to live with your family doesn't sound very "God's Plan A" to me.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, JVW said:

One thing I've been reminded of as I've followed this conversation is the concept of "then will I make weak things become strong" from the book of Ether in the Book of Mormon. I feel like my perspective on this idea is somewhat unique when I consider thoughts others have shared about this concept over the years. Here are a few examples of weak things becoming strong.

The U.S. Constitutional Conventions lasted 3 days and involved 50 men. It was a very volatile conference with a lot of discussion, debate, and argument. After the convention ended the 50 men celebrated at a nearby tavern. Their alcohol bill, converted to today's currency, was around $30,000, and they drank it all in one night. A man who doesn't drink cannot drink that much alcohol without dying. You have to have a really well-trained liver to handle that much alcohol. So it is easy to infer that there was a lot of drinking during the convention. Yet, the U.S. Constitution is not only remarkable and believed to be a document inspired by God, Elder Dallin H. Oaks dedicated an entire conference talk to the U.S. Constitution and ... bore testimony of it as a divinely authored document. How can I reconcile god-fearing men, who were obviously drinking and in their weakness, authoring such a remarkable document? The answer is "Then will I make weak things become strong".

Drinking alcohol has not been a sin through most of history. The Word of Wisdom is a temporary commandment. It could be rescinded tomorrow in whole or in part with no doctrinal difficulty.

6 hours ago, JVW said:

This second example may be a little controversial because I believe the Dead Sea Scrolls over D&C 132 and believe that King David was forgiven in the case of Uriah and Bath-sheba. But whether he was forgiven or not doesn't change the powerful example of this story. King David was a mighty king and did many wonderful things. But he was caught in a moment of weakness lusting after Bath-sheba and as a result he committed murder. Yet, if that had never happened, Christ wouldn't have been born, because he was related to King David through Bath-sheba. Even if the sin was never forgiven, God chose to come to earth through the bloodline created out of King David's weakest moment.

God’s plan would have been thwarted if David hadn’t murdered a loyal solider to cover up his adultery is a hell of a take and is based on the idea that God has no contingency plans or that God saw the end from the beginning and just worked with the sin.

Arguing the sin was necessary and therefore not a big deal is a dangerous road to go down particularly when trying to minimize deliberate murder and betrayal. Also it wasn’t a moment of weakness. The adultery was a moment of weakness but more likely minutes of weakness. The cover up involved a deception that failed due to the loyalty of the person being betrayed and then murder was arrived at as the only solution. Hardly a moment of weakness.

[JVW]

Quote

God is not reactionary, he is not acted upon. A quote that I've heard recently that I really like communicates this idea nicely, "There is never a time when someone dies that God responds with "Oh no! I'm surprised to see you, I wasn't expecting you yet!" His omniscience does not overrule agency. I view prophecy not as a prediction, but a declaration of an event that already occurred. I believe that Mary was foreordained to be the mother of God. Christ could not have come from another line because of the hundreds of Old Testament prophecies. If He was going to spring from another line it would have been prophesied and we would now be talking about how impossible it is to consider Jesus being related to King David or Bath-sheba.

So in regards to King David, did God have a plan B if King David didn't murder Uriah? No. Did God's plan require King David to sin? No. Did God do something profoundly powerful and beautiful as a result of David's sin? Yes. I can't imagine I'm making any sense, but God doesn't make any sense to me, He's beyond my comprehension which is why these kind of hypothetical questions are hard for me to answer.

@The Nehor Earlier in the thread I specifically stated that God's plan did not require David to sin (see bolded quote), and shortly after that declared that I probably wasn't making any sense. God does see the end from the beginning, this is declared multiple times across all of the standard works AFAIK. "Moment of weakness" was a bad term to use in my writing, you are right, David was just weak, period. And God made his weakness strong in Christ. Whether or not drinking alcohol is a sin, or getting smashed is a sin, or getting into heated yelling arguments is a sin isn't the point. The point is that these men were not acting like they were in a temple, saying opening and closing prayers, singing hymns, and dedicating the Constitutional Convention to God. They were just being weak men and God performed one of his greatest miracles through them. It's a miracle in David's case and in America's case.

[JVW]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

I agree, but none of that really deals with my point.

I've heard this "there is no plan B.  Whatever happens was always Plan A" before but the idea that everything always goes exactly how God would want/choose for it to go, when there is such a thing as agency, doesn't make that much sense to me.

I agree that just because something hard happens in our life, that doesn't automatically mean that it wasn't Plan A all along; it's the concept of it never being Plan B that I guess I'm pushing back against.  "Never" and "always" are big promises/claims to make.   

Was it always God's plan that your friend Angel get arrested and spiral into drugs, for example?  Was that Plan A?  Or is the life that she is pursuing after overcoming that a Plan B?

(I should clarify that just because something is a Plan B doesn't, from my perspective, make it less than Plan A, it just makes it different than Plan A)

And choosing not to live with your family doesn't sound very "God's Plan A" to me.

@bluebell @Rain
God's plan was to give us agency and let us forge our own paths. If His plan was to exalt everyone, He would have only created the spirit children that would have chosen exaltation and left the rest alone. To God, agency is the most important thing. It is why there is so much pain, hell, and suffering in the world. It is why the devil exists. It is why there are degrees of glory. It is why He eternally sacrificed His only Son. So "choosing" is God's plan A.

I will also note here that nobody knows what "living with your family forever" even means. What does it mean? That I get to have my kids as my next door neighbors and share a house with my wife? If I'm not sealed, then I'll never get to cross paths with my wife or kids over the course of an eternal timeline even if we are all in the same kingdom? What are the odds of that happening? Sealing may be our capstone doctrine and central to God's purposes in creating the Earth, but it is also the doctrine that has had the least amount revealed about it and we ultimately know nothing about it. The prospect of living with my family forever does next to nothing in making my life on Earth better.

Let's approach this from a different angle. Pretend that you know everything. The past, present, and future are constantly before you. You have numbered all of the stars in the sky, all of the sands of the sea, and all of the hair and feathers on every planet with life. Your attention to detail is astounding, and your ability to create and bend reality to your will is without bounds. You can cause anything to happen or not happen. You have total control, and with that control you gave agency to your children and allowed corruption to enter the world.

Now let's say you want to make a plan to go on a vacation trip. So you plan each day, what you want to do, where you want to go. Would you make any plan Bs, or Cs just in case the weather is bad or someone comes down with the flu? If it were me, I would create my plan to include my foreknowledge of all of those events because there is no other way that the vacation could unfold. And I would create that plan to provide the best possible vacation experience considering all of the variables that I'm allowing to happen because I gave up my control in order to give agency. I could cause the weather to be perfect, no one to come down with an illness, the car to not breakdown, etc. But I chose to allow agency and corruption to be part of the experience, because it is necessary to experience the bad to know the good.

Was it God's plan for Angel to experience drug addiction? No. It was His plan to give her agency, and also His will to take her father from her before she was born. She chose the drugs, and He allowed her to make that choice.

[MustardSeed]

22 minutes ago, JVW said:

Was it God's plan for Angel to experience drug addiction? No. It was His plan to give her agency, and also His will to take her father from her before she was born. She chose the drugs, and He allowed her to make that choice.

And yet it’s not that simple either, is it. There are so many factors that contribute to somebody making choices like that.  we are not all equal, but maybe we are? If you were given my exact set of circumstances, would you choose the same things that I choose? It seems impossible to make a judgment when there are zillions of factors to consider.
 

I like to imagine that in the end, we will all understand that we are all exactly alike and while we will all have to say our sorries to each other, (and that will be easy to do because we will have all the information) - God will in the end say that we all will have everything we could possibly want and nobody will be above the other.  
 

But I understand that there are many, who are the prodigal sons brothers who need to know that they will be rewarded above the rest of us for their hard efforts.  
 

I just can’t help but believe that some people really don’t have to put forth as much effort as others do to meet Gods expectations.  I look at my sisters, for example, and they have it (exaltation) in the bag.  But they also have much easier circumstances.  And they would agree.  

Edited June 28, 2024 by MustardSeed