Perfectionism and works

[CV75]

23 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Yes.  The threat of never seeing my parents and 5 siblings and extended family after death.  And the threat of if I didn’t excel I would disappoint my parents.  A fate worse than spanking, to me.  I don’t blame them, they loved me and they were very attentive- I had an enviable childhood- but i took the messages to heart that the ONLY way was to CTR. 

These kinds of terrors can certainly affect how we view the Lord, and I believe there is a deeper divinity within you that represents the person (and Person!) He is trying to get you to know. Hang in there!

Edited June 22, 2024 by CV75

[CV75]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I  would like to suggest that we all look at the life of Joseph Smith.

What kind of person was he?  Was he a slave to the rules he was taught as a child?  Was he a perfectionist and always did the right thing?

He did not like what he was learning in church- and yet he obviously had enough chutzpah to actually SEE the errors of the Protestantism in which he was raised.

Did he follow the rules he was taught?

No - he went out into the woods and ASKED GOD which church was true.

God said "none of them".   Imagine doing that today, yourself!

So was he a "rebel"?   Did he follow the rules of his church in a perfectionist manner?

No.

He sought his "own testimony", using today's language.

I would suggest then that finally we are getting back to the church Joseph restored.

Sometimes it seems to me that the "Restoration" needs to be Reconstructed!    None of the doctrines need to be changed- but the way see them need to be adjusted and I think that is exactly what is now happening.

We are the church of Jesus,the Christ not the church of Mormon.   We are encouraged to find our own testimonies, as did Joseph himself!  We need not to be slavish followers of extreme literalism, but to grow up into an adult understanding of who Jesus Christ IS, and emulate his love for all, living and dead.

We are back on the right path, imo, and President Nelson has had much to do with that.   But we have a lot more to do.   A church with an open canon should be a church in constant change and directed by God.

We're getting there!

This is where I think we organize within our minds the way God is based on our personalities and experiences with others. Joseph did it one way, Brigham another, and so forth through to President Nelson. We do it in our way. I think our relationship with God in turn colors our perception of the Church. Over time, our ability to manage our personalities and experiences improve with the companionship of the Holy Ghost. This is where our diversity of personality (and by extension, testimonies of God and the Church) can be an asset (edifying)  rather than a liability (dysfunctional), for God is everywhere. We in turn influence others for the better. As the Restoration moves forward and more and more people become prepared for the Second Coming, this effect will be compounded.

[JVW]

Here's a few of my thoughts in no particular order, hopefully you find it helpful to read them.

My mother is 60 and I describe her as being raised "like a pioneer". She is 1 of 11 children and grew up in abject poverty. Her mother believed that she was a prophetess. My mom "did all the things" for many decades. After two terrible divorces she eventually gave up on the church. It appears to me that she thought "I did everything right but my life went all wrong, so it didn't work."

On the other hand, I was an atheist for many years, lived a very colorful life, and came to the church around the age of 24. I joined the church b/c I live in Utah and it is the predominant religion here, but I don't feel any special connection to this church over any other. I'm associating with it until I find something better, if that ever happens. For me, the Church is a tool, and it provides many tools (like the Book of Mormon), to aid me on my quest to be one with God. I recognize that any time I sin I am breaking my covenants and that the biggest sin I commit is not centering my life on Christ.

Because of being raised by my mother I was a huge perfectionist as a child. I was a huge perfectionist after my conversion and when I went on my mission shortly before my 26th birthday. My mission broke me and brought me back to myself and I've been struggling for about a decade with trying to come unto Christ as a broken person that doesn't "do all the things". I live according to my desires (both good and bad) and am hopeful that one day I can witness the greatest miracle of all, that I can actually receive Christ's mercy.

A few years ago when I was talking with my wife about one of my addictions, God touched my heart and told me "I don't hate you, and I don't want you to hate yourself." With those words He removed my feelings of shame. I have been given a gift to be fully intentional in my life without being swayed by feelings of inadequacy. I mention this to let you know that this is a gift God can give you. He wants you to live a life being honest with him about your desires, intents, and actions. A good relationship is built only by both parties being vulnerable and honestly expressing themselves.

The problem with my mother, as I see it, is that her actions were focused on obtaining Celestial glory, but keeping the commandments is not the vehicle we use to obtain Celestial glory; they are what we do as a result of our relationship with Christ. If I pray or read or attend church for any reason other than a desire to become one with God (or a hope that by holding on I can gain that desire) then my actions are in vain. Another problem (that still exists today) is that members view the Telestial Kingdom as hell when it is not. All degrees of glory are heaven and we are the only religion that believes that God loves people into obedience, not threatens it.

Faith and works are like the tree in Alma 32. Faith is planting the seed and attending to it. Works are the fruit of the tree. The fruit is the last thing that the tree produces, it is what we look forward to with an eye of faith. If my tree is bad but I am doing good works, then I am deceiving myself by not acting in line with my faith. The fruit looks good, but it's rotten inside. In my mind, the baptism and temple requirements are a description of what good fruit looks like. I can examine my works, see if my works (and desires) line up with the qualifications, and use what I discover to cut through any self-deception.

The changes in the Church have come late. The LDS Church has had three phases (each phase essentially being a different church). Pre-1890 was childhood, post-1890 was adolescence, post 2018 (Russel M. Nelson) is maturity. It appears to me that God spent a lot of time working on the structure of the Church and He needed people to "do all the things" in order to solidify the administrative side and handle all of the growing pains of a young church. Now that the body has grown, the soul is coming into it. There is not one aspect of the Church that president Nelson hasn't changed, and if there is an area he hasn't touched that I haven't thought of yet, you can rest assured he will not die until he's changed it. I think it is a good idea to view today's church as a new church.

[smac97]

On 6/20/2024 at 9:04 AM, MustardSeed said:

I grew up in an environment that was supported by church and family that suggested that love is connected to accomplishment, service, and work.  That is ingrained in me and imprinted deeply.

Same here.

On 6/20/2024 at 9:04 AM, MustardSeed said:

Being in my 50s now, I noticed the church shifting to a place that I could’ve really used a long time ago. More attempts for a relationship with the savior,  less focus on “ doing” all the things.

I wonder if there can be an "and" in here.

The Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25:14-30 seems to contemplate the "good and faithful servants" becoming such by "'doing' all the things."  This tracks with scriptures like D&C 130:20-21 (blessings being predicated on obedience), John 14:15 (demonstrating love of God through obedience to His commandments), Mosiah 2:17 (service to others is service to God), D&C 58:27-28 (being "anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness" because "the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves"), and so on.

This does not, or should not, make our relationship with the Savior transactional.  Our "quid" is vanishingly small compared to the "quo" the Lord gives us, and in any event He loves us regardless of whether we reciprocate.  Our reciprocity - that is, love through obedience - does not make Him love us any more.  Rather, it - love through obedience - gives us access to greater blessings.  "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."  (1 Cor. 2:9.) "And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save."  (2 Nephi 31:19 (emphasis added).)

Conversely, through disobedience we estrange ourselves from Him.  "21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."  (Matthew 7:21-23.)

On 6/20/2024 at 9:04 AM, MustardSeed said:

I did all the things. All of them. I prayed daily, went to all my seminary classes, always attended church, wore dresses on Sunday, never broke. The sabbath never drank never had sex never broke rules without tremendous guilt. I volunteered. Paid all my tithing.

I did all of these things and more because I wanted to go to the celestial kingdom and nothing less was good enough. The amount of guilt carried around for my minor flaws is mind blowing to me today.

Two thoughts:

First, I think we sometimes (often?) fail to avail ourselves to the gift of repentance, and instead carry around guilt.  

Second, your comments here reminded me of an article I came across:  What 18 years of research tells us about the mental health of Latter-day Saints

I commented at the time:

Quote

Quote

However, Latter-day Saints who have unhealthy perfectionism, have legalistic attitudes about grace, or feel that God has abandoned them are more likely to experience depression.

Perfectionism

Two types of perfectionism are often used in research. The first is adaptive perfectionism, which includes attitudes that lead individuals to excel in healthy ways — that is, striving for one’s best. The second is maladaptive perfectionism which includes attitudes that create fear and anxiety about performance — that is, feeling the need to be perfect lest others look down on you.

Back in 2015 I posted some comments about an article discussing the above-described "adaptive perfectionism" and "maladaptive perfectionism" phenomena:

Quote

“You’re such a perfectionist!” 

It’s a phrase many Latter-day Saints are familiar with. It’s something I’ve been told most of my life. Though it’s often said in a joking way, there’s no denying the negative connotation that comes with the word “perfectionist.” And in a church that strives for perfection and has high expectations, members frequently find themselves coming up short, which can lead to discouragement, dissatisfaction, and stress.

But according to Professors G. E. Kawika Allen and Kenneth T. Wang, perfectionism, or striving for high standards, is not the problem. 

In a recent study focusing specifically on Latter-day Saints, Allen and Wang surveyed around 267 highly active members in Utah. In their study, they asked questions about anything from satisfaction with life to inward and outward religious commitment. They ended up identifying three main groups. 

The first group, 22% of people surveyed, were not perfectionists, that is, they don’t believe they hold themselves to high personal standards. The rest were considered perfectionists, but had an interesting split among them – a new type of perfectionism. Of the perfectionist group, 30% were classified as what Allen and Wang labeled maladaptive perfectionism, while 47% were classified as adaptive.

“Adaptive perfectionists are likely to feel acceptance of themselves and their efforts, even when they fail or fall short of the high personal standards they have set for themselves,” their original study release explains. “They were also more inwardly and outwardly committed to their LDS faith, which supports previous peer-reviewed findings that religious commitment plays a role in achieving better psychological health.” That means adaptive perfectionism is actually healthy. 

However, not all types of perfectionism are healthy. “Individuals in the maladaptive group experienced less satisfaction with life, often feeling depressed or anxious. They showed increased scrupulosity, which is the fear of sinful behavior and punishment from God.”

Though Allen admits that circumstances limited their study largely to young adults in their early to mid-20s, it seems an appropriate population to study—it’s a time of life when there is perhaps the most pressure to live up to high “perfectionist” expectations of missions, marriage, and education. 

When asked how the study could help Latter-day Saints who struggle with maladaptive perfectionism, Allen explained that, while he doesn’t have all the answers or solutions, the study can still be helpful. “Maladaptive perfectionists are those folks who have high standards and high expectations for themselves, but when they are unable to meet those expectations, whether it’s school, family, or personal expectations, they struggle a little more with feelings of failure, feelings of not being good enough, disappointment, discouragement, and they feel down about themselves because they’re not able to meet those high standards.” 

On the other hand, adaptive perfectionists know how to strive for the best, but accept if they fail. “The only difference between the maladaptive and adaptive is the fact that, yes, they have high standards, but they don’t beat themselves up if they’re not able to meet every high standard and expectation they have for themselves.” Allen goes on to explain that adaptive perfectionists are more resilient to discouragement and create a “buffer” for themselves if they fail —allowing themselves a chance to simply try again and again and again and do their best. 

This is good stuff to keep in mind.  Back to the first article:

Quote

While studies are yet to be done that compare Latter-day Saint perfectionism to perfectionism in other religious groups, one study of Latter-day Saints categorized 47.2% of those sampled as adaptive perfectionists, with 30.3% as maladaptive perfectionists, and 22.5% nonperfectionists. Unsurprisingly, maladaptive perfectionists had lower self-esteem and higher anxiety about God.

I suspect "maladaptive perfectionism" (having "fear and anxiety about performance — that is, feeling the need to be perfect lest others look down on you" and "struggl{ing} a little more with feelings of failure, feelings of not being good enough, disappointment, discouragement, and {feeling} down about themselves because they’re not able to meet those high standards") is often a contributing factor in estrangement from the Restored Gospel. 

"'The only difference between the maladaptive and adaptive {perfectionists} is the fact that, yes, they have high standards, but they {adaptive perfectionists} don’t beat themselves up if they’re not able to meet every high standard and expectation they have for themselves.'"

This sounds like a healthy approach to obedience, repentance, forgiveness, etc.  So "adaptive perfectionism" seems to be the way to go.  Perhaps it could even be characterized as the means by which we create an "and" between, in your words, "a relationship with the savior" and "'doing' all the things."  We use the latter (essentially, obedience) to strengthen the former.  When we screw up, we repent, adopt an "adaptive perfectionist" attitude, and move on.

This sounds pretty straightforward, but many of us struggle with it (I certainly do).

On 6/20/2024 at 9:04 AM, MustardSeed said:

So understanding that in my childhood, I was a perfectionist, I examine the messaging I received (whether it was intentional or not) that my acceptability was centered on what I was doing. Not what I was.

Do you see any utility in examining perfectionism as being "adaptive" or "maladaptive?"

On 6/20/2024 at 9:04 AM, MustardSeed said:

I love the new focus of the church- a personal relationship with a savior and less focus on petty rules and harsh consequences. But for me, it comes late. 
The church does not feel like home to me anymore because in spite of all of my efforts, I fall terribly short of the ideal. In my mind, the ideal is the only reward. Period everything else is the consolation prize for “free agency“ (Que the game show ‘wa wa waaaaaaa’

I am sorry you feel this way.  I hope you have a change of heart.

On 6/20/2024 at 9:04 AM, MustardSeed said:

I hope to be the first to play the new hymn as a special musical number Amazing Grace in Sacrament meeting. It is deeply meaningful to me because it represents something that could save me from myself. I’m nowhere near feeling safe with it. But wouldn’t it be grand if I could reverse years of indoctrination. 

I know probably most of you have not had the same experience. Sometimes I wonder if we even attended the same church in the 70s and early 80s. But this was my experience.  And I struggle. 

I think most of us struggle with perfectionism.  I believe that developing daily habits and perspectives borne of faith, repentance and obedience, guided by attitudes of "adaptive perfectionism," is the way to go.

I suppose that the leaders of the Church back then could have done a better job of articulating a healthy (that is, "adaptive") approach to obedience, repentance, etc.  

I am reminded of this excerpt from chapter 14 of Jane Eyre:

Quote

"I know it well; therefore I proceed almost as freely as if I were writing my thoughts in a diary.  You would say, I should have been superior to circumstances; so I should--so I should; but you see I was not.  When fate wronged me, I had not the wisdom to remain cool: I turned desperate; then I degenerated.  Now, when any vicious simpleton excites my disgust by his paltry ribaldry, I cannot flatter myself that I am better than he:  I am forced to confess that he and I are on a level.  I wish I had stood firm--God knows I do!  Dread remorse when you are tempted to err, Miss Eyre; remorse is the poison of life."

"Repentance is said to be its cure, sir."

"It is not its cure.  Reformation may be its cure; and I could reform--I have strength yet for that--if--but where is the use of thinking of it, hampered, burdened, cursed as I am?  Besides, since happiness is irrevocably denied me, I have a right to get pleasure out of life:  and I WILL get it, cost what it may."

"Then you will degenerate still more, sir."

"Possibly:  yet why should I, if I can get sweet, fresh pleasure?  And I may get it as sweet and fresh as the wild honey the bee gathers on the moor."

"It will sting--it will taste bitter, sir."

"How do you know?--you never tried it.  How very serious--how very solemn you look:  and you are as ignorant of the matter as this cameo head" (taking one from the mantelpiece).  "You have no right to preach to me, you neophyte, that have not passed the porch of life, and are absolutely unacquainted with its mysteries."

"I only remind you of your own words, sir:  you said error brought remorse, and you pronounced remorse the poison of existence."

I think Brontë does an excellent job here in examining themes of degeneracy and disobedience, of repentance and reform, and of maladaptive remorse/guilt being "the poison of life."  After all, "men are, that they might have joy."  (2 Nephi 2:25.)  As Joseph Smith put it: “Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God.”

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 21, 2024 by smac97

[smac97]

On 6/20/2024 at 10:14 AM, 2BizE said:

I understand your struggle Mustard Seed. Many/most members have been shaped into rule followers.

That is, in the main, a very good thing.

On 6/20/2024 at 10:14 AM, 2BizE said:

When we cannot be exactly obedient to the church teaching (Christ’s teachings are different from the church’s teachings) we feel guilt and shame.  It was pressured into us during those growing years in the 70s and 80s.

I think the emphasis in the past on "exactness" in obedience has led to some difficulties, but I think the Church has improved its messaging a lot.

Obedience to God is still a vital component of discipleship, as are repentance and forgiveness.

On 6/20/2024 at 10:14 AM, 2BizE said:

A similar tactic is used today with the “covenant path”.  

I respectfully disagree.  I think the leaders of the Church have done very well in emphasizing the value and power of daily repentance.  From 2022:

Quote

In the April 2022 general conference, President Russell M. Nelson invited us to “discover the joy of daily repentance.” He added:

“Repenting is the key to progress. Pure faith keeps us moving forward on the covenant path.

“Please do not fear or delay repenting. Satan delights in your misery. Cut it short. Cast his influence out of your life! Start today to experience the joy of putting off the natural man. The Savior loves us always but especially when we repent.”

This is hopeful, healthy stuff.

On 6/20/2024 at 10:14 AM, 2BizE said:

It is meant to enforce fear and shame of not being with loved ones in the future if not following the “covenant path”. (Insert RMN talk from conference a few years ago).

I think the Brethren are doing a pretty good job these days in saying what they mean, and meaning what they say.  There is seldom a need to impute motives and meanings.

On 6/20/2024 at 10:14 AM, 2BizE said:

And in this life journey, sometimes one pauses to reflect on the past and look to the future and realizes the path they are on is not the path they want to be on….not the path to happiness but rather only a path to conformity…

There are many paths to many types of conformity. 

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 21, 2024 by smac97

[ZealouslyStriving]

I grew up in the 80'-90's, I have lived a life where I could easily call it quits saying I've sinned too much and will never measure up, but as I study the words of our Prophet and Apostles, I don't get the threatening "be perfect or lose your family" message some have apparently been getting. The message I've consistently gotten is:

"Yes, you'll mess up, but don't ever give up! Sincerely give the best effort YOU can give, and all will work out. Effort is what the Lord wants. Rebellion, not weakness, is what will disqualify us from Celestial blessings."

I have more hope than I've ever had in the past.

Edited June 21, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

The message I've consistently gotten is:

"Yes, you'll mess up, but don't ever give up! Sincerely give the best effort YOU can give, and all will work out. Effort is what the Lord wants. Rebellion, not weakness, is what will disqualify us from Celestial blessings."

I have more hope than I've ever had in the past.

What a lovely synopsis.  Thank you for sharing.

Thanks,

-Smac

[mfbukowski]

52 minutes ago, JVW said:

Here's a few of my thoughts in no particular order, hopefully you find it helpful to read them.

My mother is 60 and I describe her as being raised "like a pioneer". She is 1 of 11 children and grew up in abject poverty. Her mother believed that she was a prophetess. My mom "did all the things" for many decades. After two terrible divorces she eventually gave up on the church. It appears to me that she thought "I did everything right but my life went all wrong, so it didn't work."

On the other hand, I was an atheist for many years, lived a very colorful life, and came to the church around the age of 24. I joined the church b/c I live in Utah and it is the predominant religion here, but I don't feel any special connection to this church over any other. I'm associating with it until I find something better, if that ever happens. For me, the Church is a tool, and it provides many tools (like the Book of Mormon), to aid me on my quest to be one with God. I recognize that any time I sin I am breaking my covenants and that the biggest sin I commit is not centering my life on Christ.

Because of being raised by my mother I was a huge perfectionist as a child. I was a huge perfectionist after my conversion and when I went on my mission shortly before my 26th birthday. My mission broke me and brought me back to myself and I've been struggling for about a decade with trying to come unto Christ as a broken person that doesn't "do all the things". I live according to my desires (both good and bad) and am hopeful that one day I can witness the greatest miracle of all, that I can actually receive Christ's mercy.

A few years ago when I was talking with my wife about one of my addictions, God touched my heart and told me "I don't hate you, and I don't want you to hate yourself." With those words He removed my feelings of shame. I have been given a gift to be fully intentional in my life without being swayed by feelings of inadequacy. I mention this to let you know that this is a gift God can give you. He wants you to live a life being honest with him about your desires, intents, and actions. A good relationship is built only by both parties being vulnerable and honestly expressing themselves.

The problem with my mother, as I see it, is that her actions were focused on obtaining Celestial glory, but keeping the commandments is not the vehicle we use to obtain Celestial glory; they are what we do as a result of our relationship with Christ. If I pray or read or attend church for any reason other than a desire to become one with God (or a hope that by holding on I can gain that desire) then my actions are in vain. Another problem (that still exists today) is that members view the Telestial Kingdom as hell when it is not. All degrees of glory are heaven and we are the only religion that believes that God loves people into obedience, not threatens it.

Faith and works are like the tree in Alma 32. Faith is planting the seed and attending to it. Works are the fruit of the tree. The fruit is the last thing that the tree produces, it is what we look forward to with an eye of faith. If my tree is bad but I am doing good works, then I am deceiving myself by not acting in line with my faith. The fruit looks good, but it's rotten inside. In my mind, the baptism and temple requirements are a description of what good fruit looks like. I can examine my works, see if my works (and desires) line up with the qualifications, and use what I discover to cut through any self-deception.

The changes in the Church have come late. The LDS Church has had three phases (each phase essentially being a different church). Pre-1890 was childhood, post-1890 was adolescence, post 2018 (Russel M. Nelson) is maturity. It appears to me that God spent a lot of time working on the structure of the Church and He needed people to "do all the things" in order to solidify the administrative side and handle all of the growing pains of a young church. Now that the body has grown, the soul is coming into it. There is not one aspect of the Church that president Nelson hasn't changed, and if there is an area he hasn't touched that I haven't thought of yet, you can rest assured he will not die until he's changed it. I think it is a good idea to view today's church as a new church.

Welcome to the board, and all I have to say is that, despite massive differences in our lives, of course, your life was my life.

I am a great fan of the philosophy of Pragmatism, which says that ALL ideas and philosophies are TOOLS.   (Look up Functionalism if you want to pursue that idea; aka "Pragmatism")

Looking forward to reading more of your stuff!

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/functionalism/

Quote

Functionalism in the philosophy of mind is the doctrine that what makes something a mental state of a particular type does not depend on its internal constitution, but rather on the way it functions, or the role it plays, in the system of which it is a part. This doctrine is rooted in Aristotle’s conception of the soul, and has antecedents in Hobbes’s conception of the mind as a “calculating machine”, but it has become fully articulated (and popularly endorsed) only in the last third of the 20th century. Though the term ‘functionalism’ is used to designate a variety of positions in a variety of other disciplines, including psychology, sociology, economics, and architecture, this entry focuses exclusively on functionalism as a philosophical thesis about the nature of mental states.

 

Edited June 21, 2024 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

 I think our relationship with God in turn colors our perception of the Church.

Great sentence - just as, imo,  "color" is a quale, - which I think I point out daily at least two or three times - I believe that what we see as the "Holy Ghost" or "The Light of Christ" is a perception built into us- just as our perception of color is.

Another way of saying this is that "The Universe"  / "God" has built into us a SENSE, DESIGNED for communication with "a greater force beyond ourselves" (God).  As I also have said many times before, I think that these inbuilt qualia are something like what allows many types of animals to travel thousands of miles, to, let's say, the place of their birth, to mate etc.   Whales have the largest brains on the planet, and birds have brains quite a bit smaller- "bird brain!"  but still both species share this ability.

We also have such a "Liahona" or internal compass which leads us to God

But I really loved that usage of the word "color"!  Thanks!

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia-knowledge/

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2024 by mfbukowski

[MustardSeed]

Im grateful for alternative points of view. It to some degree leaves me feeling alone in my experience but I understand the intention. Thank you. 

[Senator]

That was meek a gracious response.

I was forming an entirely different retort.

You have mentored me....

[Calm]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

This paradigm is so foreign to my indoctrinated brain in the context of my religion that I can’t seem to reconcile it.  You and I have discussed this before, thanks for your patience with my continual processing.  

 

I hope you get there in time.  I have other perfectionist issues outside of Church or thinking about the afterlife, but having this paradigm of hope of security in God (security is the most precise word for my sense, I do not mean to reference any theological concepts, this is purely an emotional one) that almost feels fulfilled already helps me deal with those, with what would likely cripple me to a great extent otherwise (it still does in a few minor ways with the extra stuff). I consider having this view a real blessing when I see others like you and my in-laws and so many others struggling with this.

 In some ways it wasn’t easy getting there because it was the example of my mother the perfectionist not being able to carry her practically perfect wife and mother, practically perfect den mother, practically perfect church member roles once her health tanked and watching how she adapted and learned better ways over the years first when I was a child (she withdrew from everything almost to start from scratch when I was 9) and then my own health issues getting serious once I had my first kid at 24.  I sometimes think of it as getting my head held under water until I gave up.  Giving up bad ideas happens pretty quickly when it’s survival on the line, lol.  In that way it was quite easy.  But I wouldn’t want others to have the same sort of ‘benefits’ I did.   
 

I am sure there are more effective, gentler ways of rewriting really embedded perfectionist scripts out there.  

Edited June 21, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

wonder if this is a good case for EMDR? Can I see my earlier experience as having been “traumatic” without needing to toss the entire baby out with the bath water? Hmmm

Sounds like a good idea.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s very helpful to know im not making things up. 

One of the most popular, if not the most popular Mormon book ever, was written because the author saw his wife and many others in the same situation you are.  Its popularity speaks to how rampant this view is in the Church.  I wish we could have this book and its follow-up, Following Christ, as lesson manuals for Sunday School (it’s got some stuff in it I wish was better formulated, but it’s great for pointing out the issue and the mistaken ideas that get us there imo).

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/stephen-e-robinson/believing-christ-practical-approach-atonement/

Quote

Finally, after about two weeks, one night I made her mad and it came out. She said, “All right. You want to know what’s wrong? I’ll tell you what’s wrong. I can’t do it anymore. I can’t lift it. I can’t get up at 5:30 in the morning and bake bread and sew clothes and help my kids with their homework and do my own homework and do my Relief Society stuff and get my genealogy done and write the congressman and go to the PTA meetings and write the missionaries . . .” And she just started naming one brick after another that had been laid on her, explaining all the things she could not do. She said, “I don’t have the talent that Sister Morrell has. I can’t do what Sister Childs does. I try not to yell at the kids, but I lose control, and I do. I’m just not perfect, and I’m not ever going to be perfect. I’m not going to make it to the celestial kingdom, and I’ve finally admitted that to myself. You and the kids can go, but I can’t lift it. I’m not ‘Molly Mormon,’ and I’m not ever going to be perfect, so I’ve given up. Why break my back?”

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

I pray or read or attend church for any reason other than a desire to become one with God (or a hope that by holding on I can gain that desire) then my actions are in vain.

I don’t think it’s in vain, that is too all or nothing for me, another trap of perfectionism I tend to fall into (why bother if I can’t do it the right way?).  I do think desires that are less than wanting to become one with God get us only so far, just as wanting to please the teacher at school only takes us so far in learning a subject where wanting to be able to teach like our teacher will keep us learning and trying even more when we leave that class and no longer have the teacher pushing us.

The desire to be one with God is the desire that will take us all the way there.

Quote

post 2018 (Russel M. Nelson) is maturity

It would be nice if so, I think it’s more likely young adulthood.

Love your post even if I must modify it a bit due to my perfectionist drive to be precise.

Edited June 21, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Sincerely give the best effort YOU can give, and all will work out.

But don’t you think you can always do better, so few things are really your best effort?

Not criticizing here, just trying to explore how you make that work for you as I have seen it work for others in very good ways, but can’t get it to work for me.

My mantra these days is “good enough and done is so much better than best effort and not done”.  And my reasoning is if God wanted my best effort he would not have allowed me to inherit my sleep disorder and get fibromyalgia (among several other things) so he must be okay with good enough.

Edited June 21, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

Thinking about a current project that is getting delayed because of perfectionism, it occurred to me that I have been able to move past it with God because I am certain he understands me and has no misconceptions about me, so how can I disappoint him?  With people that’s not true and fearing others will be disappointed in me is one of my biggest hangups and reasons for not even trying.

Got to go swimming, so just dropping the thought here so I won’t forget it later.  God’s understanding is a massive anchor for me.  Maybe that is what is different for me in being able to not fear the loss of all that is important to me.

[The Nehor]

The “exact obedience” drive seems to have driven a lot of church members into timidity.

[JVW]

@mfbukowski Thank you for the warm welcome. I'll look into pragmatism and functionalism. I feel like the LDS general sentiment of "our doctrine is Truth and we want to know as much of it as possible regardless of the source" is my MO. Truth is discovered and reinforced in patterns, and truths contained in any source, religious or otherwise, can help reveal patterns and teach me new things. That is why I regard different organizations and texts as tools. Truth is important because if I live my life with expectations based off of truth then I have less cognitive dissonance (pain, sorrow, frustration, anger) because my expectations are met. I feel like most, if not all, of the problems I face in my life are a result of my faith and belief in falsehoods.

You wrote a post earlier about being more like Joseph Smith and it made me chuckle because from what I understand Joseph Smith was a very anxious, perfectionistic individual. I think that type of personality would lend itself well to the mission that he was given. I learned in a church history class many years ago that his teeth were examined several years after his death and indicated severe grinding due to stress and anxiety. His dad was Laisse Faire in his approach to religion, but his mother was very **** about it. She got that disposition from her dad who literally was whacked on the head on 2 or 3 different occasions which resulted in him becoming a religious nut and doing door-to-door proselytizing.

@Calm I can see your point on my "all or nothing" phrasing about doing religious activities with the desire to be one with God or the desire to gain that desire. However, I don't think that being aware of the many vain attempts I've made in religious activity is bad. To the contrary, I think it's important to be aware of it. When I haven't wanted to go to church and I spent the entire time playing games on my phone was my church attendance in vain? Probably. Was it helpful? Maybe. Was it harmful? Who knows? This applies in a lot of other areas in my life though. I waste my time and attention in all sorts of ways. That is why it is such a great miracle when God tells me He loves me.

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

My mantra these days is “good enough and done is so much better than best effort and not done”.  And my reasoning is if God wanted my best effort he would not have allowed me to inherit my sleep disorder and get fibromyalgia (among several other things) so he must be okay with good enough.

There's semantic arguments to be had, but at the end of the day, that's substantively my motto too.   It's just that I see no difference between "good enough and done" and "best effort".  Those are the same things.  Unless you've decided to adopt someone else's definition of "best effort" that is more than you have to give.  

As I think about the difference between me (who doesn't suffer in the ways being discussed), and the folks in this thread who do, I wonder why.  What's different?  I reflect about how decades ago, I made an intentional choice to give only a fraction of a crap about what other people think about me.   I wonder - folks who suffer in the ways described in the OP, how much do you care about what other people think should be your best effort?

Or, perhaps another difference:  When you try or push yourself and do not produce the success or results you hoped for, do you consider that a failure of some sort?  I don't.  I often think of "Tried and failed" as a success.  If nothing else, I've learned more about my limits of that day.  Often, I'll gain visibility into gaps between me and a desired goal, and sometimes I'll discover a new path to where I want to be.  But just as often, I'll say "cool - now I know my limits, and I never need to try that again."  

What do you folks think?

Edited June 21, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

There's semantic arguments to be had, but at the end of the day, that's substantively my motto too.   It's just that I see no difference between "good enough and done" and "best effort".  Those are the same things.  Unless you've decided to adopt someone else's definition of "best effort" that is more than you have to give.  

As I think about the difference between me (who doesn't suffer in the ways being discussed), and the folks in this thread who do, I wonder why.  What's different?  I reflect about how decades ago, I made an intentional choice to give only a fraction of a crap about what other people think about me.   I wonder - folks who suffer in the ways described in the OP, how much do you care about what other people think should be your best effort?

 

The critical voice is more often internal.

“Welp, I achieved some of my goals. Did my best.”
Inner Voice: “Really, here are five things you could have done better. Also why are you slacking off now? This is wasted time. Is it your best effort when you could still be working on this right now?”

[smac97]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Im grateful for alternative points of view. It to some degree leaves me feeling alone in my experience but I understand the intention. Thank you. 

We each express ourselves in different ways, I guess.  For myself, I am generally not prone to effusive expressions.  

Many of us can and do empathize where you have been and where you are.  I suspect most of us share the perspectives to some extent.  I think the intention has been to offer encouragement, not judgment or condemnation, nor to isolate you or make you feel so.

Thanks,

-Smac

[MustardSeed]

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

We each express ourselves in different ways, I guess.  For myself, I am generally not prone to effusive expressions.  

Many of us can and do empathize where you have been and where you are.  I suspect most of us share the perspectives to some extent.  I think the intention has been to offer encouragement, not judgment or condemnation, nor to isolate you or make you feel so.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thank you. It’s a sensitive journey and I appreciate your understanding enough to circle back. 
 

[ZealouslyStriving]

46 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

There's semantic arguments to be had, but at the end of the day, that's substantively my motto too.   It's just that I see no difference between "good enough and done" and "best effort".  Those are the same things.  Unless you've decided to adopt someone else's definition of "best effort" that is more than you have to give.  

As I think about the difference between me (who doesn't suffer in the ways being discussed), and the folks in this thread who do, I wonder why.  What's different?  I reflect about how decades ago, I made an intentional choice to give only a fraction of a crap about what other people think about me.   I wonder - folks who suffer in the ways described in the OP, how much do you care about what other people think should be your best effort?

Or, perhaps another difference:  When you try or push yourself and do not produce the success or results you hoped for, do you consider that a failure of some sort?  I don't.  I often think of "Tried and failed" as a success.  If nothing else, I've learned more about my limits of that day.  Often, I'll gain visibility into gaps between me and a desired goal, and sometimes I'll discover a new path to where I want to be.  But just as often, I'll say "cool - now I know my limits, and I never need to try that again."  

What do you folks think?

Couldn't have said it better myself- so I won't.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The “exact obedience” drive seems to have driven a lot of church members into timidity.

Could you expand on that please?