Troubling Article Re: Temple in Texas

[california boy]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do we have any recent examples (last 20 years) that started out without a steeple inside the US to compare community reactions?

I think using temples outside the US makes comparing population reactions inappropriate as dynamics could be quite different in that outside the US we are often viewed as an American religion, which can have some pretty intense positive or negative reactions.

I am not familiar enough on where the Church has built temples to answer that question.  But I do know that the resistance towards these temples seems to be centered on light and height of the steeple.  Eliminating the steeple takes away a major argument that is being used against the building of the temples.  The lighting issues seem to be resolved by agreeing to turn the lights off at a reasonable time.  If it is just anti-Mormon attitudes that are causing these communities to become a battleground, you have just taken away their only real valid concerns.  What would be left could only be described as bigotry.

[Peacefully]

I live about 30 miles from Fairview and our ward was asked to send emails of support and to show up for the city council meeting wearing white shirts. The counselor who read the letter in sacrament was almost in tears which seemed a bit overwrought to me once I went home and read what all the fuss was about. There are still some rural areas in the metroplex but they are getting few and far between so I can see why Fairview wants to keep the country feel. There are also objections about the temple being lit up at night, I can understand that, also. However, there could also be some prejudice against “Mormons” at play. I believe it is alive and well here in the Bible Belt along with prejudice against POC and LGBTQ+. 

Edited June 20, 2024 by Peacefully

[Peacefully]

There is another temple being built in the small town of Burleson TX, about 15 miles from me, as we speak. I haven’t heard of any issues there. If Fairview doesn’t want the temple built there, for whatever reason, I’m pretty sure another location can be found. 

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

There is another temple being built in the small town of Burleson TX, about 15 miles from me, as we speak. I haven’t heard of any issues there. If Fairview doesn’t want the temple built there, for whatever reason, I’m pretty sure another location can be found. 

There are two temples in Texas being built within 50 miles of each other?  Wow! (Fort Worth, Texas temple…so confusing when they don’t use the actual location’s name https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/fort-worth-texas-temple/ )

 

 

Looking at the two of them, it would seem the steeple is a significant difference and if one is causing an uproar and the other not…

Edited June 20, 2024 by Calm

[Peacefully]

Just now, Calm said:

There are two temples in Texas being built within 50 miles of each other?  Wow!

Yes, and the Dallas temple is about 40 miles from me so I’ll be spoiled for choice:) 

[Peacefully]

L

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

There are two temples in Texas being built within 50 miles of each other?  Wow! (Fort Worth, Texas temple…so confusing when they don’t use the actual location’s name https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/fort-worth-texas-temple/ )

Oops, wrong Fairview. I should have known 30 miles wasn’t right because McKinney is further than that. So it is about 70 miles from me. Burleson is 15 and Dallas is 40. Still not bad:) 

[ZealouslyStriving]

31 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

If Fairview doesn’t want the temple built there, for whatever reason, I’m pretty sure another location can be found. 

Once the Church backs completely down and relocates because some of the neighbors don't like it- well, you know what will happen.

"Well, if they moved away from Fairview they can do the same for us."- then the new location, "We don't want you here either. Be neighborly and move elsewhere." ad infinitum.

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

L

Oops, wrong Fairview. I should have known 30 miles wasn’t right because McKinney is further than that. So it is about 70 miles from me. Burleson is 15 and Dallas is 40. Still not bad:) 

Are the neighborhoods pretty similar?  Would you feel comfortable enough to assume difference in reaction is likely the architecture?   Seems unlikely that Fort Worth/Burleson is crammed with LDS and Fairview has a handful.

Edited June 20, 2024 by Calm

[Peacefully]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are the neighborhoods pretty similar?  Would you feel comfortable enough to assume difference in reaction is likely the architecture?   Seems unlikely that Fort Worth/Burleson is crammed with LDS and Fairview has a handful.

Right, I haven’t been to Fairview proper but I’ve been in the area. I would assume many similarities, but I would think Burleson would be more conservative because of its proximity to Ft. Worth and Fairview’s proximity to Dallas but I have only a gut feeling that the Ft Worth área is more conservative than Dallas. 

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Right, I haven’t been to Fairview proper but I’ve been in the area. I would assume many similarities, but I would think Burleson would be more conservative because of its proximity to Ft. Worth and Fairview’s proximity to Dallas but I have only a gut feeling that the Ft Worth área is more conservative than Dallas. 

More conservative could play either way…more pro religion and religious freedom, but possibly if it’s more fundamentalist, more antimormons around and just Christians who don’t see us as fellow Christians and are uncomfortable around us.

I wonder if the proximity of the two temples makes leaders want them to have substantially different looks from each other?

Edited June 20, 2024 by Calm

[Peacefully]

7 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Right, I haven’t been to Fairview proper but I’ve been in the area. I would assume many similarities, but I would think Burleson would be more conservative because of its proximity to Ft. Worth and Fairview’s proximity to Dallas but I have only a gut feeling that the Ft Worth área is more conservative than Dallas. 

When the McKinney temple was first announced it was supposed to be in Prosper Texas. Apparently, the mayor there was for it (per Reddit, lol) so I’m not sure why the location changed. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

There are two temples in Texas being built within 50 miles of each other?  Wow! (Fort Worth, Texas temple…so confusing when they don’t use the actual location’s name https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/fort-worth-texas-temple/ )

 

 

Looking at the two of them, it would seem the steeple is a significant difference and if one is causing an uproar and the other not…

Not just the steeple. The Fairview Temple is two stories versus one story. It looks to me to be twice the height. At least. Steeple notwithstanding. 

[Peacefully]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

More conservative could play either way…more pro religion and religious freedom, but possibly if it’s more fundamentalist, more antimormons around and just Christians who don’t see us as fellow Christians and are uncomfortable around us.

You are right! I was equating conservative with anti-Mormon, but many (most) members of the church are on the conservative side so that doesn’t really work. It’s kind of an interesting thing down here where members are happy to throw in with people who probably have a bias towards them. 

[Calm]

Thought some might find this interesting….yellow are the temples, notice 3 in the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

Change of plan as it won’t paste for some reason…here’s the link and you can zoom in on Texas to see how dense the LDS are in this area.  There are 20 stakes in the immediate area and another half dozen in the circle around them (I placed the circle at midway between the FW/D complex and the Austin and Oklahoma City temples which is about a 100 mile radius with FW/D in the center).

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/maps/units/

There are 20 stakes between the two temples of Denver and Fort Collins.  Colorado Springs had 5 stakes nearby plus one at a distance south near Pueblo.

The three temples in the Phoenix area have about 40 stakes (eyeballed).

The two temples in Las Vegas area have about 30 stakes.  Same with the two temples in the St George area.  Cedar City has about 10.  Manti and Ephraim are oddballs with 1 stake at Manti and 3 at Ephraim, but Manti probably gets a lot of tourist traffic and there are stakes scattered about the small towns at a distance from them.  The Payson temple may have 30 or 35 depending on if Springville is assigned to it or Provo Center temple.  Going up Utah Valley, it appears if one matches stake numbers per temple, Utah Valleyites deserve quite few more here and there rather than just the 8 we have, lol.

Edited June 20, 2024 by Calm

[Peacefully]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Thought some might find this interesting….yellow are the temples, notice 3 in the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

Change of plan as it won’t paste for some reason…here’s the link and you can zoom in on Texas to see how dense the LDS are in this area.

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/maps/units/

Cool! The red dot next to Wedgwood just north of the Burleson temple is our stake. 

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Not just the steeple. The Fairview Temple is two stories versus one story. It looks to me to be twice the height. At least. Steeple notwithstanding. 

Here is the Dallas one as well.  Three very different looks…

 

the website does 3 D modeling with trees so you get a better impression of size if you want to check them out…oops McKinney doesn’t have it yet.

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/fort-worth-texas-temple/model/

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/dallas-texas-temple/model/

This has square footage of all temples and heights.  Dallas and McKinney have the same at 44,000 where Fort Worh is 30,000.

https://church-of-jesus-christ-facts.net/temple5/

Under construction temples don’t have heights yet, but Dallas is 95 ft.  Quite beautiful imo.

Edited June 20, 2024 by Calm

[2BizE]

 

This is worth the listen. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

Here is the Dallas one as well.  Three very different looks…

 

the website does 3 D modeling with trees so you get a better impression of size if you want to check them out…oops McKinney doesn’t have it yet.

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/fort-worth-texas-temple/model/

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/dallas-texas-temple/model/

This has square footage of all temples and heights.  Dallas and McKinney have the same at 44,000 where Fort Worh is 30,000.

https://church-of-jesus-christ-facts.net/temple5/

Under construction temples don’t have heights yet, but Dallas is 95 ft.  Quite beautiful imo.

My understanding is that the Fairfield temple building (not steeple) is 65 ft. So 2/3 of the way up the steeple. So quite a bit taller. And steeple nearly double the Dallas Temple.

 

https://fairviewtexas.org/images/McKinney_LDS_Temple_May_2024.pdf

Edited June 20, 2024 by SeekingUnderstanding

[MrShorty]

@SeekingUnderstanding That was part of the document I had seen earlier. I think it shows that the city's main concern is the building/steeple height. I still don't understand what happened with the UMC (I assume this is United Methodist) starting at 150 feet, but getting redesigned to 50 feet. I'm still not sure why we are being stubborn about this particular temple design, when we have plenty of examples of other temples that would be easier to fit within Fairview's height restrictions.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

@SeekingUnderstanding That was part of the document I had seen earlier. I think it shows that the city's main concern is the building/steeple height. I still don't understand what happened with the UMC (I assume this is United Methodist) starting at 150 feet, but getting redesigned to 50 feet. I'm still not sure why we are being stubborn about this particular temple design, when we have plenty of examples of other temples that would be easier to fit within Fairview's height restrictions.

My guess is there are at least two criteria that are narrowing options (but have no clue how narrow they are getting if I am right).

One is it needs to be a design with square footage of 44,000 and the other is it is wanted to be significantly different in design to the other two.

Anyone know of a website that has collected and categorized the various designs?  Not interested in doing that work as easy (simply print off pictures of all the temples and put like with like into piles), but too time consuming.

Added:  Lol, just needed to wander around that site more.  Not the best designed website, though tons of info.  It would also take more work than I am willing to single out possible options.

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/library/designs/

What would be ideal is to see those “core plans”.

Quote

 

With a large number of temples under construction “we have some beautiful plans that have been authorized by the First Presidency that we refer to as ‘core plans’ that vary in square footage,” explained Bishop Waddell.

“Because of those core plans, the design time to construct a temple has been shortened from about 18 months down to about six or seven months. And so it’s much faster to get a temple into the construction process, which saves money and time,” he said.

 

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/inside-church-headquarters-presiding-bishopric-location-design-construction-latter-day-saint-temples

Edited June 20, 2024 by Calm

[morgan.deane]

12 hours ago, Vanguard said:

"...rural areas across America..."?! Lone Mountain?! From Google Maps Lone Mountain looks about as ugly a packed suburban greater Las Vegas community as one can get. Urban center? - no. But rural? Good grief... ;o

Good point. Me and a few other people talked about this in the other thread. The temple site is right next to a "rural preservation zone" but it is not in the rural preservation zone. That means the lots are bigger but as you said, its not exactly rural. In the thread dedicated to the Lone Mountain temple I posted satellite images that show the suburban sprawl all around the area. I was going to post this but I've been busy with edits on my latest book. There is also a new development not far from the Lone Mountain area that is adding 3,000 homes! https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/housing/more-than-3k-homes-with-trail-network-coming-near-red-rock-canyon-3068604/  The link includes a map and you can see Lone Mountain right there. So you're entirely correct. This area is not rural. Its so crowded I stopped visiting Lone Mountain. Like every piece of empty land in the valley its seeing lots of development. Someone should write a letter to the editor correcting the "destroying rural character" talking point. I can't speak for the other temples, but its not true for Lone Mountain. 

[Tacenda]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

There are two temples in Texas being built within 50 miles of each other?  Wow! (Fort Worth, Texas temple…so confusing when they don’t use the actual location’s name https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/fort-worth-texas-temple/ )

 

 

Looking at the two of them, it would seem the steeple is a significant difference and if one is causing an uproar and the other not…

I believe the church needs to rethink their position on the steeple. And just go by the wishes in the neighborhood that it's being built in. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I believe the church needs to rethink their position on the steeple. And just go by the wishes in the neighborhood that it's being built in. 

I hope there is adjustment, but I can see why some feel the steeple is esthetically necessary for the best appearance with that design…though to be honest I am not much into steeples and would be happy if they changed to the top windows to an arch to match the front window below and then had some sort of dome repeating the arch shape to top it off rather than the needle piercing the sky look.

Edited June 20, 2024 by Calm

[LoudmouthMormon]

So, as the decades pass, I've been interested in watching my local humans manage their affairs.  HOA boards, town councils, city boards, that sort of thing.  Dues and zoning and building type and density and road improvement and water rights and "look and feel" arguments about how a neighborhood should look.  I've lost track of all the various meetings and events I've attended, where people got together to discuss plans.

Other than my tiny HOA board meetings, every single one of them has folks show up who are opposed to whatever is being proposed.  (And half of my HOA board meetings have opposers too.)

- When the low income housing was going in, folks showed up to complain about crime and drugs and prostitution.
- Every single road improvement project has people opposed to the construction, the noise, the increased traffic that will result. 
- Every new housing development meeting is always brimming with people mad about increased population density, environmental destruction, "losing our way of life".
- The small town that had a business burn down, met to discuss replacing the building.  People showed up mad because it would be used for business.
- Building that school would result in children deaths, because they'd all have to cross a dangerous road.

Here are the recurring themes I've personally witnessed, in 3 different states, across 3 decades of paying attention:
- We don't want "them" around "us".
- I won't be able to enjoy my property like I do now. (Traffic, views, building height, or just the 'ick' factor of having undesirable people around).
- This will ruin the wildlife, the deer or bunnies will all die.
- "We moved here specifically because of the lack of [whatever is being proposed], and now I'll have to live next to it!"
- This will [wreck our home values/boost our home values].  (Yes, no matter what the impact to home values, someone will be mad.)
- We'll run out of water. 
- Bunch of rich developers don't care about us, just the big bucks.
- If there's a disaster, the roads will all be blocked and we won't be able to escape. 
- Power lines/cell towers/gas lines cause cancer/autism/alzheimers.

You will see most of these in the anti-temple playbook, for every temple construction project in the US.  Every time.  It'll either be covered by the media or it won't, but there will always be at least some of it.  (The power line/autism one I've only heard once.)

Edited June 20, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[LoudmouthMormon]