Place in the Church for Singles

[The Nehor]

The only prouductive purpose I have found for the Single Adult program is as a place to send people with marriages in danger of ending. Show them what their future holds if the marriage ends and they will be much more eager to fix things. Or they will run away screaming. One of the two.

[MiserereNobis]

On 3/16/2024 at 2:04 PM, Analytics said:

Likewise, you can learn a ton about yourself and humanity as a whole by not getting married at all.

Cloistered monastics talk about this all the time. Living in a monastery in close proximity to other monks for the rest of your life teaches you much about yourself and others and creates a situation where working on improving virtues is almost necessary for survival.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Cloistered monastics talk about this all the time. Living in a monastery in close proximity to other monks for the rest of your life teaches you much about yourself and others and creates a situation where working on improving virtues is almost necessary for survival.

I am pretty sure I would just go on a murdering spree.

[Kenngo1969]

On 3/17/2024 at 1:05 PM, Calm said:

You conveyed it quite well.  I experienced the invisibility as a teen and college student.  Went to a couple of dances, but was never asked to dance.  We were assigned blind dates for one dance, I got all dressed up and saw my roommates go off with theirs one by one…mine never came.

Yeesh!   (At least you lived to tell about it!)

[Kenngo1969]

On 3/18/2024 at 2:41 PM, The Nehor said:

I am pretty sure I would just go on a murdering spree.

Well, it's not as though you lack any experience with that sort of thing, Sir.  After all, you were a full-time missionary once.  Just saying!

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Well, it's not as though you lack any experience with that sort of thing, Sir.  After all, you were a full-time missionary once.  Just saying!

I knew I was doing the whole missionary thing wrong somehow. That was what I left out.

[gopher]

I have great sympathy for the single adults in the church.  Many desperately wish to experience love, marriage, and having children.  Some have circumstances that make it difficult or impossible from them to ever have those experiences.  I got a kick out of some of the divorced dudes that would talk about how horrible it was to be married, yet they were always the first ones to married out of our group.  I was the only never-married so they often felt it was their responsibility to warn me about the red flags in their previous relationships.  One guy got married for the 5th time after complaining about all the problems with his ex-wives.  I think he could have benefited from the counsel from the wise feminist philosopher who once said, "It's me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me (I'm the problem, it's me)".

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

I have great sympathy for the single adults in the church.  Many desperately wish to experience love, marriage, and having children.  Some have circumstances that make it difficult or impossible from them to ever have those experiences.  I got a kick out of some of the divorced dudes that would talk about how horrible it was to be married, yet they were always the first ones to married out of our group.  I was the only never-married so they often felt it was their responsibility to warn me about the red flags in their previous relationships.  One guy got married for the 5th time after complaining about all the problems with his ex-wives.  I think he could have benefited from the counsel from the wise feminist philosopher who once said, "It's me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me (I'm the problem, it's me)".

Ugh, yes, the endless philosophizing and counsel by Single Adults to other Single Adults about relationships is so weird. Except for the odd widow or widower this is the group that has consistently failed to either build a relationship or maintain one. Why do you think you know anything? It is like your perpetually near poverty relative who throws around career success buzzwords and advice.

I have had a lot of dating success but it was very rarely with church members. Also revealing that I am bi ends a lot of potential relationships. With non-members it kills over 50% of them. With members it always ends it.

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, gopher said:

 I think he could have benefited from the counsel from the wise feminist philosopher who once said, "It's me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me (I'm the problem, it's me)".

He is the common denominator in each of those situations. 

Edited March 20, 2024 by bluebell

[Kenngo1969]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I knew I was doing the whole missionary thing wrong somehow. That was what I left out.

I'd never have known if you hadn't told me.  Is there such a thing as too much self-disclosure?

[gopher]

18 hours ago, bluebell said:

He is the common denominator in each of those situations. 

He was actually a decent guy and had a good relationship with several of his ex-wives.  But I was also looking for an excuse to quote Taylor Swift since we don't hear about her much anymore.

[gopher]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Ugh, yes, the endless philosophizing and counsel by Single Adults to other Single Adults about relationships is so weird. Except for the odd widow or widower this is the group that has consistently failed to either build a relationship or maintain one. Why do you think you know anything? It is like your perpetually near poverty relative who throws around career success buzzwords and advice.

I have had a lot of dating success but it was very rarely with church members. Also revealing that I am bi ends a lot of potential relationships. With non-members it kills over 50% of them. With members it always ends it.

Yeah, I didn't take much of their advice seriously.  But married people aren't much better with their advice.  I probably shared this before but I once went in for a TR recommend where the counselor thought he would give me some helpful advice.  He said when he'd been home from his mission for about a year he decided it was time to get married.  He prayed about it and the next day a girl in his BYU class smiled at him and they were married 2 months later.  That's a nice story to tell your kids and grandkids, but not very helpful for someone who has struggled for many years prayerfully seeking to find a spouse.  (To be clear, I'm not mocking his experience or doubting the power of prayer).  It kinda stinks when it's so difficult to keep a commandment that you actually want to obey.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, gopher said:

Yeah, I didn't take much of their advice seriously.  But married people aren't much better with their advice.  I probably shared this before but I once went in for a TR recommend where the counselor thought he would give me some helpful advice.  He said when he'd been home from his mission for about a year he decided it was time to get married.  He prayed about it and the next day a girl in his BYU class smiled at him and they were married 2 months later.  That's a nice story to tell your kids and grandkids, but not very helpful for someone who has struggled for many years prayerfully seeking to find a spouse.  (To be clear, I'm not mocking his experience or doubting the power of prayer).  It kinda stinks when it's so difficult to keep a commandment that you actually want to obey.

That is also true. People who got lucky/blessed/whatever and found a spouse quickly generally don’t have a deep insight into finding a spouse either.

[morgan.deane]

5 hours ago, gopher said:

Yeah, I didn't take much of their advice seriously.  But married people aren't much better with their advice.  I probably shared this before but I once went in for a TR recommend where the counselor thought he would give me some helpful advice.  He said when he'd been home from his mission for about a year he decided it was time to get married.  He prayed about it and the next day a girl in his BYU class smiled at him and they were married 2 months later.  That's a nice story to tell your kids and grandkids, but not very helpful for someone who has struggled for many years prayerfully seeking to find a spouse.  (To be clear, I'm not mocking his experience or doubting the power of prayer).  It kinda stinks when it's so difficult to keep a commandment that you actually want to obey.

A story like that is actually really painful for someone who has prayed unceasingly for decades without success. 

[gopher]

On 3/21/2024 at 2:08 PM, morgan.deane said:

A story like that is actually really painful for someone who has prayed unceasingly for decades without success. 

Sure, but at least there are plenty of examples in the scriptures and church history of people who didn't get answers to prayers when they wanted.  I refused to let myself become angry or bitter since I didn't want to become like that.  I also refused to let myself feel like a second class member as a single adult.  Sometimes it's helpful to be stubborn.  And my story eventually had a happy ending.

[morgan.deane]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

Sure, but at least there are plenty of examples in the scriptures and church history of people who didn't get answers to prayers when they wanted.  I refused to let myself become angry or bitter since I didn't want to become like that.  I also refused to let myself feel like a second class member as a single adult.  Sometimes it's helpful to be stubborn.  And my story eventually had a happy ending.

Saying "yes but" to someone's pain is also unhelpful. Would it have killed you to say, "thats tough" or just say nothing at all? (It had been a few days so I thought the thread was dead and I was okay with that.) Honestly, your post is more of the same that makes church so miserable. Just another married person invalidating the feelings of a single person and talking down to them with unhelpful advice. You should know better since you were single for awhile but apparently don't. I'm glad you got married. But you "refused" a bunch of things which just sounds like toxic positivity. I'm positive if you were single for longer that attitude wouldn't have helped. Your advice for the rest of us apparently is to be like Abraham or Sarah and wait until we're ridiculously old, at best, before getting married. I have been single almost as long as it took the pioneers to built the Salt Lake Temple, and outside of an ironic chuckle, it doesn't help me feel better. I talked about that in my first post, the advice to look to things like that in scripture is the Mormon equivalent of life sucks and then you die.

But the most frustrating is that singles aren't allowed to feel anything negative about it because we'll be accused of being bitter or angry. And "refusing to feel like a second class member" sure makes it sound like you were a second class member but you just worked hard to pretend otherwise. Having to constantly conform and spout happy nonsense they don't feel is part of why singles feel like they are being ripped apart. They experience feelings, and those feelings are valid even and, sometimes especially, if they are negative. Its why they go to places where they don't have to deny their feelings of frustration to repeat unhelpful mantras like God doesn't answer some prayers, or he answers them by denying the thing you seek. They go to places where their feelings matter instead of being something to "refuse." 

I especially dislike the rhetoric about prayers because there are plenty of places in the scriptures and in church culture where blessings are directly related to prayers and obedience. The Book of Mormon repeats a dozen times how following commandments will let you prosper in the land. And obedience on your mission brought baptisms. Jesus taught the parable of the unjust judge to teach us that even a corrupt magistrate will grant the answers of just, heartfelt requests. So how much more will your Father in Heaven want to bless you (Luke 18:1-8). I'd say blessing flowing from obedience is probably the dominant message of scriptures. Its so ubiquitous in church culture you often hear about the "I prayed about it and the next day a girl in class smiled at me" stories as you discussed. But when it comes time to get married suddenly God isn't a vending machine. Those teachings ring false and don't help. 

So thanks for sharing but no thanks. 

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, morgan.deane said:

But the most frustrating is that singles aren't allowed to feel anything negative about it because we'll be accused of being bitter or angry. And "refusing to feel like a second class member" sure makes it sound like you were a second class member but you just worked hard to pretend otherwise. Having to constantly conform and spout happy nonsense they don't feel is part of why singles feel like they are being ripped apart. They experience feelings, and those feelings are valid even and, sometimes especially, if they are negative. Its why they go to places where they don't have to deny their feelings of frustration to repeat unhelpful mantras like God doesn't answer some prayers, or he answers them by denying the thing you seek. They go to places where their feelings matter instead of being something to "refuse." 

I think one of the difficulties of church culture is while we have a strong desire to mourn with those who mourn, the usual approach to comfort is to try and help them to stop mourning rather than to create a safe place for them to express grief…whether for the loss of a loved one or the loss of a dream.  Trying to problem solve for someone else when we have no actual ability to control the situation leads to less helpful or even harmful comments that try to help by changing perspective since that is all that is possible in most cases for us to help change.

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I think one of the difficulties of church culture is while we have a strong desire to mourn with those who mourn, the usual approach to comfort is to try and help them to stop mourning rather than to create a safe place for them to express grief…whether for the loss of a loved one or the loss of a dream.  Trying to problem solve for someone else when we have no actual ability to control the situation leads to less helpful or even harmful comments that try to help by changing perspective since that is all that is possible in most cases for us to help change.

I think sometimes too, posters are focused on the discussion aspect of this forum and it doesn’t always occur that someone is seeking support and comfort rather than discussing a topic from different perspectives. 

[Peacefully]

On 3/20/2024 at 12:41 PM, The Nehor said:

Ugh, yes, the endless philosophizing and counsel by Single Adults to other Single Adults about relationships is so weird. Except for the odd widow or widower this is the group that has consistently failed to either build a relationship or maintain one. Why do you think you know anything? It is like your perpetually near poverty relative who throws around career success buzzwords and advice.

I have had a lot of dating success but it was very rarely with church members. Also revealing that I am bi ends a lot of potential relationships. With non-members it kills over 50% of them. With members it always ends it.

Who are you calling odd, lol? 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Who are you calling odd, lol? 

Pretty sure I mean a different definition of the word “odd” but I am not sure. I’ve slept since then.

[Peacefully]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Pretty sure I mean a different definition of the word “odd” but I am not sure. I’ve slept since then.

I couldn’t help myself, lol! 

[manol]

I'm not comfortable with the idea of heaven (i.e. the Celestial Kingdom) having a two-class social structure, a person's status and happiness being dependent on their ability to attract at least one mate (of the correct gender).

I don't see how heaven can be heaven if anyone we really care about – which presumably would include everyone – is in their own private hell to any degree. If heaven isn't heaven for everyone, then it really isn't heaven for anyone.

Likewise down here. If the paradigm isn't working for everyone, then it really isn't working for anyone.

Maybe the problem does not lie within those for whom the current paradigm doesn't work. Maybe the problem lies with the current paradigm. I realize that may be a disturbing thought for most members of the LDS Church, but if the Church is still a work in progress, then some basic paradigms may be still be incomplete or incorrect.

Rather than waiting around for the leadership of the LDS Church to come up with a better paradigm, my unoriginal suggestion is this: “Seek, and ye shall find.”

 

Edited March 24, 2024 by manol

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, manol said:

I'm not comfortable with the idea of heaven (i.e. the Celestial Kingdom) having a two-class social structure, a person's status and happiness being dependent on their ability to attract at least one mate (of the correct gender).

I don't see how heaven can be heaven if anyone we really care about – which presumably would include everyone – is in their own private hell to any degree. If heaven isn't heaven for everyone, then it really isn't heaven for anyone.

Likewise down here. If the paradigm isn't working for everyone, then it really isn't working for anyone.

Maybe the problem does not lie within those for whom the current paradigm doesn't work. Maybe the problem lies with the current paradigm. I realize that may be a disturbing thought for most members of the LDS Church, but if the Church is still a work in progress, then some basic paradigms may be still be incomplete or incorrect.

Rather than waiting around for the leadership of the LDS Church to come up with a better paradigm, my unoriginal suggestion is this: “Seek, and ye shall find.”

 

So, is your paradigm that everyone must be saved (hell cannot exist, etc.) because that's the way this "plan" can work for everyone?  

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying.

[gopher]

On 3/23/2024 at 12:57 PM, morgan.deane said:

Saying "yes but" to someone's pain is also unhelpful. Would it have killed you to say, "thats tough" or just say nothing at all? (It had been a few days so I thought the thread was dead and I was okay with that.) Honestly, your post is more of the same that makes church so miserable. Just another married person invalidating the feelings of a single person and talking down to them with unhelpful advice. You should know better since you were single for awhile but apparently don't. I'm glad you got married. But you "refused" a bunch of things which just sounds like toxic positivity. I'm positive if you were single for longer that attitude wouldn't have helped. Your advice for the rest of us apparently is to be like Abraham or Sarah and wait until we're ridiculously old, at best, before getting married. I have been single almost as long as it took the pioneers to built the Salt Lake Temple, and outside of an ironic chuckle, it doesn't help me feel better. I talked about that in my first post, the advice to look to things like that in scripture is the Mormon equivalent of life sucks and then you die.

My bad, I didn't realize who I was replying to.  I went back and read your earlier post so I know where you are coming from.  My purpose was to explain that one way I dealt with the loneliness and misery of being single was to not take offense at comments from others, even those that weren't intended to be malicious.  I realize that doesn't work for everyone.  But it even helps me today to not take offense at your cynical and sarcastic comments directed towards me.

You clearly have found a way to deal with it all that works for you.  Good luck!

 

[manol]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

So, is your paradigm that everyone must be saved (hell cannot exist, etc.) because that's the way this "plan" can work for everyone?  

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying.

Thanks for asking for clarification!

Regarding hells, I think they are temporary (D&C 19:6-12). 

I think the Good Shepherd coerces no one, nor does he give up on anyone.  I think he has a job that is inclusive of everyone (Moses 1:39), and that he will succeed (D&C 3:1). 

I think the worth of souls is great (D&C 18:10).

I think our role is more participatory than we realize; I think he is the vine and we are the branches (John 15:5). 

I also think he was absolutely serious when he said, "What manner of men [and women] ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am" (3 Nephi 27:27).

So I'm not saying that "hell[s] cannot exist."  They do!  Two men can be standing in a field, the one is in heaven and the other is in hell.  Imo hell is more a state of mind, or a very low spiritual energy level, rather than a geographical location.  By way of example:  "You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by your anger" (Buddha). 

Edited March 25, 2024 by manol