Mississippi Bishop Resigns from the Pulpit

[Vanguard]

54 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

Now despite his years of service to his ward family, he is now being shunned by that same ward family.  Instead of reaching out to support him and his family in their time of need, he's getting Crickets.   Sad indeed.

Hmmm... Me thinks you haven't listened to the clips about what he really thinks...

[Diamondhands69]

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

Fourth, imagine if if an ex-Muslim A) stood up during services in his local mosque and renounced his faith, B) thereafter published videos insulting and denigrating Muhammed and the Koran in fairly vile terms, calling Islam "garbage" and "a bottomless pit of hell" from which he has now escaped, and characterizing observant Muslims as being "brainwashed", and C) subsequently expressed confusion and disappointment that the members of his former mosque have "stopped interacting with him."  What happened?  Who knows?  It's a mystery!  Or . . . not.

In many Muslim countries this behavior (denouncing Islam /apostacy) would by punishable by death. 
 

 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Would it be more sad if the community he was trying to withdraw from didn't respect his wishes to withdraw and instead continued to pester him? 

Can't win for losing. Damned if you; damned if you don't. No good deed goes unpunished. No bad deed goes punished. Life is unfair; deal with it.

[Diamondhands69]

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

This seems like sort of a mixed message.  Do you want to interact with Latter-day Saints, or not?

if the interaction is contingent upon people who formerly interacted in a reg basis now putting me on ignore/shun and exchanging them for a couple if missionaries who are assigned to get me paying tithing again.. no

 

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

If you are "PIMO" and irritated at the Latter-day Saints qua Latter-day Saints (which I construe from your comments about you feeling like "a ward project," you being irritated by missionaries "stop{ping} by all the time," etc.), might they not be picking up on those signals, and responding in ways that you seem to be wanting - that is - to be left alone?

Alas, the Latter-day Saints can improve in this.  As can their neighbors.

On the one hand:

• "Ward project."
• "{The missionaries} will be getting an education pretty soon if {their pattern of visiting me} doesn’t stop."

On the other hand

• "You largely get ignored."
• "I was pretty much toxic."
• "I was ... not worth their time."
• "{My bishop} has pretty much stopped communicating with me."

Quite a bit of mixed messaging here.  Do you want to have some association with your Latter-day Saint neighbors, or not?  It looks like you damning if they do, damning them if they don't.  Am I wrong in this assessment?

Thanks,

-Smac

If association is based solely on ward participation despite living next door or across the street then yea I can do without it. It’s ok, was just an observation about how many Mormons treat fellow Mormons who are not buying the whole program. 

[Diamondhands69]

8 hours ago, Amulek said:

 

That hasn't been my experience. In fact, when I was a kid, the majority of my friends were not LDS: Catholic, Methodist, Assembly of God, Seventh Day Adventist, agnostic - never made any difference to me.

where I live, Mormons are a majority at least in my subdivision, the adjacent subdivisions and the high schools. They can afford to only have Mormon friends. The kids are much better at that than the adults from my observation. 

8 hours ago, Amulek said:

Maybe I'm way off base here, but isn't that how most neighbors are? They aren't necessarily the best-est of friends, but, you know, they're all just sort of...neighborly towards each other
 

here we have neighborhood parties, fire pits in the driveway etc all the time. First people invited everyone in the street but as soon as a beer came out the Mormons walked away. Got invited again and the Mormons?? They didn’t show up. Now it’s just the heathens who get together and they do bbq, horseshoes bring their kids etc. no Mormons though cuz there’s beer drinking. 
 

yea neighbors to get together

Edited January 18, 2024 by Diamondhands69

[Craig Speechly]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Have you watched the TikTok’s and heard the things he’s saying about members?

Some

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Now it’s just the heathens who get together and they do bbq, horseshoes bring their kids etc. no Mormons though cuz there’s beer drinking. 

So if the non Mormons are feeling neighborly, why not have some nonalcoholic parties?  Not all of course, but a party doesn’t have to have alcohol. 
 

Another option would be for Saints to host neighborhood parties themselves and request no alcohol. If this is respected, then alternating holding parties seems like it could work.

As someone who should understand both points of view, you could suggest these options to some neighbors. 

Edited January 18, 2024 by Calm

[Diamondhands69]

9 hours ago, smac97 said:

I wonder if the some of the Church's bishops were in something of a "moral panic" for a while about this sort of thing, and if the institutional Church was not as good as it is now in providing training about how to handle such things.

Thanks,

-Smac

I’d say a few Mormon leaders had hang ups about this stuff:

http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/masturbation.htm

[Diamondhands69]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

So if the non Mormons are feeling neighborly, why not have some nonalcoholic parties?  Not all of course, but a party doesn’t have to have alcohol. 

 

there is no reason not to have a beer or two. No one is forcing anyone to have a beer.. the Mormons just leave all of a sudden if a beer comes out. If they can’t be anywhere near a beer then these folks need to quit going to ballgames where there is a ton of drinking. 

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

Another option would be for Saints to host neighborhood parties themselves and request no alcohol. If this is respected, then alternating holding parties seems like it could work.

yea we tried that. Someone had the great idea to invite the missionaries. Now the non members know if Mormons have an event they are gonna get the missionaries showing up. These people are not stupid. 

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

As someone who should understand both points of view, you could suggest these options to some neighbors. 

I don’t need to suggest anything. I’m at the parties myself. Anyone is welcome but if they bail as soon as a beer comes out, why go?

Edited January 18, 2024 by Diamondhands69

[MustardSeed]

12 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

.. the Mormons just leave all of a sudden if a beer comes out. If they can’t be anywhere near a beer then these folks need to quit going to ballgames where there is a ton of drinking. 

I think this is ridiculous.  The Mormons leave? Who are you talking about? 

[Diamondhands69]

22 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I think this is ridiculous.  The Mormons leave? Who are you talking about? 
 

I thought I said “Mormons.” They are the ones who leave when someone breaks out a Modelo. 

[Maestrophil]

4 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

This is a sad story.  This Bishop served for nearly 2.5 years as a faithful bishop.  He was faced with a double-bind.  Serve the church's aims  or serve his conscience.  He went with his conscience.  He was faced with a moral dilemma and decided that he could not compromise his moral compass. 

Now despite his years of service to his ward family, he is now being shunned by that same ward family.  Instead of reaching out to support him and his family in their time of need, he's getting Crickets.   Sad indeed.

Totally not how I see it based on my following of the events. 
 

He said he was stepping down because he was required to do things that went against his conscience. But then, in subsequent videos, he made it about more than just stepping down. He made it about Mormons being brainwashed, and the church not being true. From what I’ve seen in every one of these videos this is someone who has completely lost, their faith, which I sympathize with, and don’t blame them for, but was not transparent about that fact, with the congregation, and then behind their backs implies that they are all brainwashed, because they are members of an immoral church. Which is exactly what bothers me about so many ex members is they can’t seem to  be OK with members who stay without labeling them as either brainwashed, dishonest, or mentally tormented or deficient. 
 

And if the ward did send his ministering brothers over, for instance, what would he say to them? Do you think he would thank them and welcome them in and have a civil conversation, or do you think he would start talking about all the problems he has with the church? In my experience with many people close to me, especially those who have newly left, there is a lot of animosity, and a lot of low blows and mudslinging. Is it any wonder people don’t want to be exposed to that?

no, I admit, I don’t know the situation, and I know not all ex members are like this, especially those who have been out long enough to make peace with themselves and others. But I think it is unfair to lay too much blame at members of his congregation for not knowing exactly what to do yet

 

 

[Maestrophil]

On 1/16/2024 at 7:28 PM, bluebell said:

When I heard that talk about lazy learners, I assumed he was speaking to me, and other members who needed to be reminded that having a relationship with God takes work.  

But yeah, the playing at church thing was horrible and pretty much everyone I talk to about it agreed.

It just bugs me when some ex members want to be treated better than they have treated others. If it’s bad for somebody to say it about you and your beliefs then it’s equally bad for you to say it about another person and their beliefs. Don’t say horrible things about the church that you’ve left and then wine when you hear members say horrible things about you.  And vice versa (using you in the general sense, and not speaking about you specifically ).

I’ve always struggled with people who want mercy for themselves but justice for everyone they disagree with, regardless of what side of the aisle they’re on.  Hypocrites and double standards are annoying.

Totally agree. If you don’t think you qualify as a lazy learner, then the statement wasn’t for you and you can move on. My attitude was the same. To ask “is it me Lord?”

and yes, the Wilcox quote is disrespectful imo

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

there is no reason not to have a beer or two

Sure there is. Same reason not to serve pork  if you are inviting a number of observant Jews, Muslims, or Adbentists to a neighborhood party.  Same reason not to invite the missionaries if the nonmembers feel awkward around them.

Plus I have been around beer and it stunk (it was on a river rafting trip, so you would think the smell would be lost in the vastness of the great outdoors, it wasn’t; that experience is the number one reason I have never ever been tempted to try beer; I just had a taste of wine a month ago as we were cooking with it and it tastes way too much like vinegar to be enjoyable tastewise, so really not tempted for any alcohol now…though I do like the warmth in the belly that I expect was the alcohol in NyQuil the once—alcohol plus antihistamine equals one of the worst nights of my life bouncing off walls to try and subdue the rls sensations—I took it as well as with a few herbal tinctures I have used over the years)

It is just being a gracious host to recognize idiosyncrasies of your guests if you really want them there. I have a relative who hates the smell of roses, which I love.  She is not allergic to them.  We never have them in the house and don’t even plant them by the front door as she visits quite often. 

Edited January 18, 2024 by Calm

[Diamondhands69]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

Sure there is. Same reason not to serve pork  if you are inviting a number of observant Jews, Muslims, or Adbentists to a neighborhood party. 
 

the day this becomes a melting pot of any number of the above you described I’ll eat my hat. This is Lilly white Mormon ville with a Hispanic or two thrown in for good measure. 
 

that said, I wouldn’t go to a Muslim country and demand they serve pulled pork to make me feel comfortable. Same here. Get invited to a party and you can’t handle a beer or two or three being consumed don’t go. I’ll keep their offended sensibilities in mind when I hear from the same person about the last nfl game or mlb game they went to which are overflowing with drunk people. They are just virtue signaling. 

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

Plus I have been around beer and it stunk (it was on a river rafting trip, so you would think the smell would be lost in the vastness of the great outdoors, it wasn’t; that experience is the number one reason I have never ever been tempted to try beer; I just had a taste of wine a month ago as we were cooking with it and it tastes way too much like vinegar to be enjoyable tastewise, so really not tempted for any alcohol now…though I do like the warmth in the belly that I expect was the alcohol in NyQuil the once—alcohol plus antihistamine equals one of the worst nights of my life bouncing off walls to try and subdue the rls sensations—I took it as well as with a few herbal tinctures I have used over the years)

It is just being a gracious host to recognize idiosyncrasies of your guests if you really want them there. I have a relative who hates the smell of roses, which I love.  She is not allergic to them.  We never have them in the house and don’t even plant them by the front door as she visits quite often. 

The effect of NyQuil is quite different than just a beer, a shot or glass of wine. Its effects last longer and has more alcohol than your standard beer. It is about 10% alcohol which is on par with a weak glass of wine or maybe a shot of hard liquor. 

Edited January 18, 2024 by Diamondhands69

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

there is no reason not to have a beer or two. No one is forcing anyone to have a beer.. the Mormons just leave all of a sudden if a beer comes out. If they can’t be anywhere near a beer then these folks need to quit going to ballgames where there is a ton of drinking. 

yea we tried that. Someone had the great idea to invite the missionaries. Now the non members know if Mormons have an event they are gonna get the missionaries showing up. These people are not stupid. 

I don’t need to suggest anything. I’m at the parties myself. Anyone is welcome but if they bail as soon as a beer comes out, why go?

I get it, maybe if they attend they worry about it looking like they condone it in front of their kids. I like Calm's suggestion as well.

 

[Rain]

15 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

the day this becomes a melting pot of any number of the above you described I’ll eat my hat. This is Lilly white Mormon like with a Hispanic or two thrown in for good measure. 
 

that said, I wouldn’t go to a Muslim country and demand they serve pulled pork to make me feel comfortable. Same here. Get invited to a party and you can’t handle a beer or two or three being consumed don’t go.

Are you sure this isn't more of why they all leave?  I can handle others drinking a beer. I hate alcohol because of what it did to my brother,  but I can handle it.  But a beer is different than "a beer or two or three" and with 2 or 3 beers it isn't always just a drink, it's a change in actions. There's a reason people drink beer and it is rarely only for the taste. 

So are members leaving because they can't handle beer being present or are they leaving because the behavior of their neighbors have changed? I suspect that there will definitely be some of the first, but probably a lot more of the second than those drinking assume.

15 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

I’ll keep their offended sensibilities in mind when I hear from the same person about the last nfl game or mlb game they went to which are overflowing with drunk people. They are just virtue signaling. 

The effect of NyQuil is quite different than just a beer, a shot or glass of wine. It is longer lasting and far more intoxicating. 

 

[Diamondhands69]

18 minutes ago, Rain said:

So are members leaving because they can't handle beer being present or are they leaving because the behavior of their neighbors have changed? I suspect that there will definitely be some of the first, but probably a lot more of the second than those drinking assume.

 

The first street party we had all the Mormons bailed within 15 min of the first beer being opened. It was a sat night. I was wondering why it was clearing out so fast and I noticed all sudden literally all my ward members there had to go and they all cleared out really fast. My wife and I were there for another couple hours or so. Nothing spectacular happened. The party started with about 40 people and dwindled down to less than half shortly after it began. Several were talking about it at church the next day. Several were like omg you guys stayed for another two hours?! A few mentioned that once people started drinking they were out. 
 

follow on parties Mormons got invited again but very few showed up. Now I’m the only Mormon invited because I do show up and bring good food. Funeral taters one time lol. 

Edited January 18, 2024 by Diamondhands69

[Calm]

50 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

The effect of NyQuil is quite different than just a beer

Who implied they were similar?  You missed the reason I included the personal note.

I have heard people describing how alcohol (primarily the stronger stuff) gives a sense of warmth in the body, I am assuming that feeling when I drank the NyQuil was caused by the alcohol (I certainly never got it with nonalcoholic NyQuil).  I was simply mentioning there was something I had found enjoyable with alcohol, which I used to imply I had no doubts there were other valid reasons besides taste that people enjoy alcohol.  

Taste can be affected by other factors, so it shouldn’t be surprising to anyone that alcoholic drinks are appealing to many even if it takes sometime retraining tastebuds, just like smoking can be even though with the initial effect of nausea one would think most would be scared off….and yet very popular prior to health issues becoming well publicized and still popular in many communities.

Edited January 18, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

the day this becomes a melting pot of any number of the above you described I’ll eat my hat. This is Lilly white Mormon ville with a Hispanic or two thrown in for good measure. 

So who is drinking the beer?

Quote

Get invited to a party and you can’t handle a beer or two or three being consumed don’t go.

Do you feel the same way about those who couldn’t handle the missionaries (whose presence btw I added to the list in my post of what an gracious host would avoid having at a party they really wanted nonmembers to come to if they noticed the presence of missionaries drove them away)?

What does it say to you about the hosts and whether they actually want those who choose not to drink when they basically ignore the lack of their presence?  Since it is Mormonville, whoever is bringing and drinking the beer obviously knows many Saints are uncomfortable around alcohol and yet chooses to include it.

A lot of people don’t go to parties unless they feel wanted and not just in a generic “everyone’s welcomed (but we won’t miss you if you don’t show)” kind of way…they don’t particularly enjoy crowds.  Parties are most likely an investment in a long term relationship for them.  Count me as one of them.  

Edited January 18, 2024 by Calm

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Are you sure this isn't more of why they all leave?  I can handle others drinking a beer. I hate alcohol because of what it did to my brother,  but I can handle it.  But a beer is different than "a beer or two or three" and with 2 or 3 beers it isn't always just a drink, it's a change in actions. There's a reason people drink beer and it is rarely only for the taste. 

So are members leaving because they can't handle beer being present or are they leaving because the behavior of their neighbors have changed? I suspect that there will definitely be some of the first, but probably a lot more of the second than those drinking assume.

 

We have brothers in common. I have two alcoholic brothers and it is sad. And totally agree about the change in some people that drink. I like the non alcohol party every time.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

In many Muslim countries this behavior (denouncing Islam /apostacy) would by punishable by death. 
 

 

Not many, only a few. Other punishments for apostasy are more common such as being legally disinherited or imprisoned. Extrajudicial killings for apostasy are more common.

[Diamondhands69]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

So who is drinking the beer?

the non Mormons.. there are some here but over half the houses in each street are Mormon families. Everyone not Mormon is a minority in terms of religion. 

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you feel the same way about those who couldn’t handle the missionaries (whose presence btw I added to the list in my post of what an gracious host would avoid having at a party they really wanted nonmembers to come to if they noticed the presence of missionaries drove them away)?

the missionaries tract fairly often in here. The only thing they have to do is re-activate people and bug the non members. When they start knocking the neighborhood FB page lights up with a heads up they’re coming round again. No one wants to talk to them. The entire time I have lived here (>5yrs) there have been zero convert baptisms by the missionaries… last thing people want is to show up at a party and get ambushed by the elders. 

7 hours ago, Calm said:

What does it say to you about the hosts and whether they actually want those who choose not to drink when they basically ignore the lack of their presence?  Since it is Mormonville, whoever is bringing and drinking the beer obviously knows many Saints are uncomfortable around alcohol and yet chooses to include it.

we are all neighbors. The non members are bringing it. We are densely populated with Mormons but not everyone is. 

7 hours ago, Calm said:

A lot of people don’t go to parties unless they feel wanted and not just in a generic “everyone’s welcomed (but we won’t miss you if you don’t show)” kind of way…they don’t particularly enjoy crowds.  Parties are most likely an investment in a long term relationship for them.  Count me as one of them.  

Yea I guess they must not feel wanted. I dunno. I’m not drinking and we r fine. They have their opportunity so it’s their choice. My parents would have done the same. In their old age in a neighborhood with no Mormons they had no friends there. They were not introverts they just chose to stay away from “heathens” as they call people and associate with Mormons only. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

the non Mormons.. there are some here but over half the houses in each street are Mormon families. Everyone not Mormon is a minority in terms of religion. 

the missionaries tract fairly often in here. The only thing they have to do is re-activate people and bug the non members. When they start knocking the neighborhood FB page lights up with a heads up they’re coming round again. No one wants to talk to them. The entire time I have lived here (>5yrs) there have been zero convert baptisms by the missionaries… last thing people want is to show up at a party and get ambushed by the elders. 

we are all neighbors. The non members are bringing it. We are densely populated with Mormons but not everyone is. 

Yea I guess they must not feel wanted. I dunno. I’m not drinking and we r fine. They have their opportunity so it’s their choice. My parents would have done the same. In their old age in a neighborhood with no Mormons they had no friends there. They were not introverts they just chose to stay away from “heathens” as they call people and associate with Mormons only. 

Both sides (non Mormon ex Mormon and all in Mormon) you mention take it far too serious. BTW, you should look out for the missionaries and show them some empathy. I may not be active at the time, and not too sure I believe the majority of it, but the LDS are my tribe and I can't get them out of my system I guess. I think I'd be less lonely if I were able to and then I'd reach out to the secular crowd more, but can't seem to get over the fence. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

last thing people want is to show up at a party and get ambushed by the elders. 

And maybe the last thing some members want is to show up to a party and have to deal with the consequences of people drinking.  You are giving a pass to personal biases against missionaries without a thought it seems while coming down hard on members who don’t want to get ambushed by drinking.