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Hmmm…The Tithing List Plot Thickens


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Ok, the church has released a statement denying that lists of high income tithing donors have been released to third parties outside of the church  But what if that is both true and false at the same time? What if the tithing list was actually accessed from inside the church for the benefit of an outside third party organization?  Is that any different?

Evidently, according to a FB post by a wealthy member of the church, Elder Ballard himself made a random, out of the blue, call to this wealthy member to solicit a large donation for Tim Ballard and O.U.R.  
 

This member, had no prior relationship with Elder Ballard at that time, 

I wonder how Elder Ballard knew this member was so very wealthy? Was it from a list of wealthy tithe payers or perhaps Elder Ballard has some other means to know who wealthy church member are, but it seems that things are not as cut and dry as the denial would have us think. 

Is any of this , if true, illegal? No  Has the church been completely honest?  I’ll let each of you decide that for yourselves. 
 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.4e9c96b0c8801710a515ff412987e39f.jpeg
 

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1 hour ago, Craig Speechly said:

wonder how Elder Ballard knew this member was so very wealthy? Was it from a list of wealthy tithe payers or perhaps Elder Ballard has some other means to know who wealthy church member are, but it seems that things are not as cut and dry as the denial would have us think. 

 

Or maybe Elder Ballard just asked wealthy donors he knew who they would recommend reaching out to….

Or maybe LDS Philanthropies keeps a list of wealthy donors who have given permission

1 hour ago, Craig Speechly said:

Evidently, according to a FB post by a wealthy member of the church, Elder Ballard himself made a random, out of the blue, call to this wealthy member to solicit a large donation for Tim Ballard and O.U.R.  

CFR…let’s see it.  Not saying it isn’t true. More interested to see if it adds any info. 

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Or maybe Elder Ballard just asked wealthy donors he knew who they would recommend reaching out to….

Or maybe LDS Philanthropies keeps a list of wealthy donors who have given permission

CFR…let’s see it.  Not saying it isn’t true. More interested to see if it adds any info. 

Calm, I can't remember if Elder Ballard is a silent partner in OUR or if that's a rumor. I can't fathom why he went to such great lengths to fund OUR. Aren't there better charities that are more substantiated at this time? When you do the background on OUR they aren't as legitimate as they try to represent themselves to be. 

I believe OUR has a for profit side as well. So maybe they are getting wealthy from all of this while those that know what they're doing are doing the real work out there. Because if OUR is legit where are they in helping those in the USA, for instance currently the FLDS is trafficking young girls, Warren Jeffs is giving commands for it to happen. Are they on that trail?

I haven't seen real facts yet on OUR, where are the thousands that have been saved? Wouldn't Elder Ballard want to make sure about this company? 

Or he is getting in the years that he may have some problems in the discernment of all of this. 

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21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Calm, I can't remember if Elder Ballard is a silent partner in OUR or if that's a rumor. I can't fathom why he went to such great lengths to fund OUR. Aren't there better charities that are more substantiated at this time? When you do the background on OUR they aren't as legitimate as they try to represent themselves to be. 

I believe OUR has a for profit side as well. So maybe they are getting wealthy from all of this while those that know what they're doing are doing the real work out there. Because if OUR is legit where are they in helping those in the USA, for instance currently the FLDS is trafficking young girls, Warren Jeffs is giving commands for it to happen. Are they on that trail?

I haven't seen real facts yet on OUR, where are the thousands that have been saved? Wouldn't Elder Ballard want to make sure about this company? 

Or he is getting in the years that he may have some problems in the discernment of all of this. 

The allegations against Elder Ballard are from before many of the issues around OUR were known yet.  Their mission statement is/was a worthwhile goal and I don't see a problem with Elder Ballard wanting to help them protect trafficked kids.  This recent hullabaloo was caused because Elder Ballard started to distance himself from Tim.  So he has recognized that OUR might not be as good as he thought.

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4 hours ago, Calm said:

Or maybe Elder Ballard just asked wealthy donors he knew who they would recommend reaching out to….

Or maybe LDS Philanthropies keeps a list of wealthy donors who have given permission

CFR…let’s see it.  Not saying it isn’t true. More interested to see if it adds any info. 

Did you read in my post where I said that this wealthy member did not personally know Elder Ballard prior to his random call seeking a donation for O.U.R.?

Your CFR is in the attached article or you’re welcome to check out the wealthy member’s FB page. I have personally listen to his post, but I’m sure my attestation will not satisfy you

Edited by Craig Speechly
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39 minutes ago, webbles said:

Looking at the images you posted, it seems that Russell Brunson, the founder of ClickFunnels and a wealthy person, was contacted by Elder Ballard and asked to donate to OUR.  Russell Brunson apparently was happy to donate and was also involved with the "Operation Toussaint" movie.

I'm not seeing anything saying that Elder Ballard used tithing records to look up Russell Brunson.  It could be just as likely that Elder Ballard learned about Russell Brunson by virtue that he is a founder of a successful SaaS business.  There's probably other ways that Elder Ballard could have learned about Russell Brunson.  I don't see how this proves anything to do with tithing records.

I’m willing to accept all of your assumptions which is why I left that question open in my OP. But other than tithing, what other lists do GA’s have access to of wealthy tithe payers?   I do believe the truth is much less flattering than the church has acknowledged. 

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10 minutes ago, webbles said:

I had some fun reading articles about this and others about the possible lies from the church and Elder Ballard.  And after reading all that, it seems like there is a lot of logic jumps.

First logic jump I saw was that the initial statement from the church on Elder Ballard and Tim Ballard was a lie.  The claim is that the statement says that Elder Ballard didn't help with Tim Ballard and yet we have proof from Russell Brunson that Elder Ballard did help.  Unfortunately, it appears that this claim is from a misreading of the initial statement of the church (https://www.deseret.com/2023/9/15/23875331/tim-ballard-senate-church-of-jesus-christ).  The statement never says that Elder Ballard didn't help.  In fact, it says the opposite.  It wasn't until Elder Ballard learned of a misuse of his name that Elder Ballard stopped helping Tim Ballard.  So the statement and Russell Brunson are not in conflict with each other.  Elder Ballard wanted to help protect children and it appears he felt that OUR was doing that and so he helped out by referring Russell Brunson to Tim Ballard (and probably many other things).

The second logic jump is that Russell Brunson's statement shows that Elder Ballard was using tithing records.  Russell Brunson was known to be wealthy (2020 PR release saying he is a successful author and co-founder of a successful SaaS https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/russell-brunson-best-selling-author-and-100-million-entrepreneur-of-clickfunnels-launches-third-book-traffic-secrets-301068009.html).  You wouldn't need a tithing record to learn that about him.  The only reason why people are thinking that Elder Ballard used tithing records was because of OUR's statement that the Davis County attorney alleged the church did.  Since the attorney, OUR, and the church have publicly denounced that, it seems much more likely that Elder Ballard learned of Russell Brunson through non-tithing means.

 

And I accept that your assumptions could also be true.  But we also don’t know if Elder Ballard learned of Brunson’s wealth from a tithing list either. 
 

I also have firsthand knowledge that Elder Ballard has a history of soliciting funds from wealthy members for a variety of projects, both church related and non.  So nothing about this revelation comes as a surprise to me. 

Edited by Craig Speechly
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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

IMO the church is small.  Connections are made due to 3 degrees of separation all the time. If elder Ballard was highly motivated to support the biz, I could see him getting information either by his minding or by somebody offering it unsolicited and him pursuing that lead personally.  Maybe elder Ballard simply overfunctioned.  Plenty of room here for alternatives to an official list being disseminated. 

And it’s probably a complete unrelated coincidence that out of the hundreds if not thousands of financial advisors available that Elder Ballard’s son in law was chosen to manages all of O.U.R.’s funds too. 

Edited by Craig Speechly
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35 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

And it’s probably a complete unrelated coincidence that Elder Ballard’s son in law is the financial advisor for O.U.R.’s funds too. 

That's probably why Elder Ballard learned about OUR and wanted to support it.  The goal of OUR is a good goal.  The fact that OUR apparently wasn't being forthright or doing things wrong doesn't change the fact that they looked good.  If I had been a position to help OUR years ago, I probably would have as I want to help trafficked children.  I don't see anything wrong with Elder Ballard wanting to help OUR.  I would actually find it amiss if he hadn't wanted to help OUR.

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1 minute ago, webbles said:

That's probably why Elder Ballard learned about OUR and wanted to support it.  The goal of OUR is a good goal.  The fact that OUR apparently wasn't being forthright or doing things wrong doesn't change the fact that they looked good.  If I had been a position to help OUR years ago, I probably would have as I want to help trafficked children.  I don't see anything wrong with Elder Ballard wanting to help OUR.  I would actually find it amiss if he hadn't wanted to help OUR.

The cause of helping save trafficked children is a worthy cause and why shouldn’t Elder Ballards family benefit from it. 

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9 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

Ok, the church has released a statement denying that lists of high income tithing donors have been released to third parties outside of the church  But what if that is both true and false at the same time? What if the tithing list was actually accessed from inside the church for the benefit of an outside third party organization?  Is that any different?

Evidently, according to a FB post by a wealthy member of the church, Elder Ballard himself made a random, out of the blue, call to this wealthy member to solicit a large donation for Tim Ballard and O.U.R.  
 

This member, had no prior relationship with Elder Ballard at that time, 

I wonder how Elder Ballard knew this member was so very wealthy? Was it from a list of wealthy tithe payers or perhaps Elder Ballard has some other means to know who wealthy church member are, but it seems that things are not as cut and dry as the denial would have us think. 

Is any of this , if true, illegal? No  Has the church been completely honest?  I’ll let each of you decide that for yourselves. 
 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.4e9c96b0c8801710a515ff412987e39f.jpeg
 

"Is any of this , if true... Has the church been completely honest?" -- Wow, some folks never learn...

None of this is true because if it were, I would have been on the list.

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32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I live over 500 miles away from where I grew up.  My son is serving a mission thousands of miles away from both places.  He's serving with the nephew of my best friend from the 7th grade (who I haven't seen in decades since we moved away when I was 14).

My daughter ended up sharing a room at the MTC with a cousin of hers.  Don't recall which degree it is right now, but they share the same great-great-grandfather. 

Edited by ksfisher
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1 hour ago, webbles said:

I don't understand this.  Are you saying that Elder Ballard was trying to funnel money to his son-in-law?  Why do you think Elder Ballard wasn't being honest about trying to help trafficked children?  Why do you think he was trying to benefit from it?

I’m only pointing out what I know from the public record. Elder Ballards family has benefited from his association with OUR. 

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4 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

I’m only pointing out what I know from the public record. Elder Ballards family has benefited from his association with OUR. 

Everyone who was ever paid by OUR for working for them has benefited from it.  Does that matter?

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