Hmmm…The Tithing List Plot Thickens

[Craig Speechly]

Ok, the church has released a statement denying that lists of high income tithing donors have been released to third parties outside of the church  But what if that is both true and false at the same time? What if the tithing list was actually accessed from inside the church for the benefit of an outside third party organization?  Is that any different?

Evidently, according to a FB post by a wealthy member of the church, Elder Ballard himself made a random, out of the blue, call to this wealthy member to solicit a large donation for Tim Ballard and O.U.R.  
 

This member, had no prior relationship with Elder Ballard at that time, 

I wonder how Elder Ballard knew this member was so very wealthy? Was it from a list of wealthy tithe payers or perhaps Elder Ballard has some other means to know who wealthy church member are, but it seems that things are not as cut and dry as the denial would have us think. 

Is any of this , if true, illegal? No  Has the church been completely honest?  I’ll let each of you decide that for yourselves. 
 

 

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Craig Speechly said:

wonder how Elder Ballard knew this member was so very wealthy? Was it from a list of wealthy tithe payers or perhaps Elder Ballard has some other means to know who wealthy church member are, but it seems that things are not as cut and dry as the denial would have us think. 

 

Or maybe Elder Ballard just asked wealthy donors he knew who they would recommend reaching out to….

Or maybe LDS Philanthropies keeps a list of wealthy donors who have given permission

1 hour ago, Craig Speechly said:

Evidently, according to a FB post by a wealthy member of the church, Elder Ballard himself made a random, out of the blue, call to this wealthy member to solicit a large donation for Tim Ballard and O.U.R.  

CFR…let’s see it.  Not saying it isn’t true. More interested to see if it adds any info. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

The Tim Ballard thread is already discussing this and in Smac’s update.  Do we really need a third thread on the same topic?

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Or maybe Elder Ballard just asked wealthy donors he knew who they would recommend reaching out to….

Or maybe LDS Philanthropies keeps a list of wealthy donors who have given permission

CFR…let’s see it.  Not saying it isn’t true. More interested to see if it adds any info. 

Calm, I can't remember if Elder Ballard is a silent partner in OUR or if that's a rumor. I can't fathom why he went to such great lengths to fund OUR. Aren't there better charities that are more substantiated at this time? When you do the background on OUR they aren't as legitimate as they try to represent themselves to be. 

I believe OUR has a for profit side as well. So maybe they are getting wealthy from all of this while those that know what they're doing are doing the real work out there. Because if OUR is legit where are they in helping those in the USA, for instance currently the FLDS is trafficking young girls, Warren Jeffs is giving commands for it to happen. Are they on that trail?

I haven't seen real facts yet on OUR, where are the thousands that have been saved? Wouldn't Elder Ballard want to make sure about this company? 

Or he is getting in the years that he may have some problems in the discernment of all of this. 

[webbles]

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Calm, I can't remember if Elder Ballard is a silent partner in OUR or if that's a rumor. I can't fathom why he went to such great lengths to fund OUR. Aren't there better charities that are more substantiated at this time? When you do the background on OUR they aren't as legitimate as they try to represent themselves to be. 

I believe OUR has a for profit side as well. So maybe they are getting wealthy from all of this while those that know what they're doing are doing the real work out there. Because if OUR is legit where are they in helping those in the USA, for instance currently the FLDS is trafficking young girls, Warren Jeffs is giving commands for it to happen. Are they on that trail?

I haven't seen real facts yet on OUR, where are the thousands that have been saved? Wouldn't Elder Ballard want to make sure about this company? 

Or he is getting in the years that he may have some problems in the discernment of all of this. 

The allegations against Elder Ballard are from before many of the issues around OUR were known yet.  Their mission statement is/was a worthwhile goal and I don't see a problem with Elder Ballard wanting to help them protect trafficked kids.  This recent hullabaloo was caused because Elder Ballard started to distance himself from Tim.  So he has recognized that OUR might not be as good as he thought.

[Craig Speechly]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Or maybe Elder Ballard just asked wealthy donors he knew who they would recommend reaching out to….

Or maybe LDS Philanthropies keeps a list of wealthy donors who have given permission

CFR…let’s see it.  Not saying it isn’t true. More interested to see if it adds any info. 

Did you read in my post where I said that this wealthy member did not personally know Elder Ballard prior to his random call seeking a donation for O.U.R.?

Your CFR is in the attached article or you’re welcome to check out the wealthy member’s FB page. I have personally listen to his post, but I’m sure my attestation will not satisfy you

Edited November 10, 2023 by Craig Speechly

[webbles]

3 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

Did you read in my post where I said that this wealthy member did not personally know Elder Ballard prior to his random call seeking a donation for O.U.R.?

Looking at the images you posted, it seems that Russell Brunson, the founder of ClickFunnels and a wealthy person, was contacted by Elder Ballard and asked to donate to OUR.  Russell Brunson apparently was happy to donate and was also involved with the "Operation Toussaint" movie.

I'm not seeing anything saying that Elder Ballard used tithing records to look up Russell Brunson.  It could be just as likely that Elder Ballard learned about Russell Brunson by virtue that he is a founder of a successful SaaS business.  There's probably other ways that Elder Ballard could have learned about Russell Brunson.  I don't see how this proves anything to do with tithing records.

[smac97]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Calm, I can't remember if Elder Ballard is a silent partner in OUR or if that's a rumor.

I believe the story is that Tim Ballard characterized Pres. Ballard as a "silent partner" in "Slave Stealers, LLC" (see here).

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I can't fathom why he went to such great lengths to fund OUR.
...
I haven't seen real facts yet on OUR, where are the thousands that have been saved? Wouldn't Elder Ballard want to make sure about this company? 

Or he is getting in the years that he may have some problems in the discernment of all of this. 

Let's first get some clarity on the "lengths" he went to, preferably based more on substantive evidence, and less on gossip, hearsay and innuendo.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 10, 2023 by smac97

[webbles]

I had some fun reading articles about this and others about the possible lies from the church and Elder Ballard.  And after reading all that, it seems like there is a lot of logic jumps.

First logic jump I saw was that the initial statement from the church on Elder Ballard and Tim Ballard was a lie.  The claim is that the statement says that Elder Ballard didn't help with Tim Ballard and yet we have proof from Russell Brunson that Elder Ballard did help.  Unfortunately, it appears that this claim is from a misreading of the initial statement of the church (https://www.deseret.com/2023/9/15/23875331/tim-ballard-senate-church-of-jesus-christ).  The statement never says that Elder Ballard didn't help.  In fact, it says the opposite.  It wasn't until Elder Ballard learned of a misuse of his name that Elder Ballard stopped helping Tim Ballard.  So the statement and Russell Brunson are not in conflict with each other.  Elder Ballard wanted to help protect children and it appears he felt that OUR was doing that and so he helped out by referring Russell Brunson to Tim Ballard (and probably many other things).

The second logic jump is that Russell Brunson's statement shows that Elder Ballard was using tithing records.  Russell Brunson was known to be wealthy (2020 PR release saying he is a successful author and co-founder of a successful SaaS https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/russell-brunson-best-selling-author-and-100-million-entrepreneur-of-clickfunnels-launches-third-book-traffic-secrets-301068009.html).  You wouldn't need a tithing record to learn that about him.  The only reason why people are thinking that Elder Ballard used tithing records was because of OUR's statement that the Davis County attorney alleged the church did.  Since the attorney, OUR, and the church have publicly denounced that, it seems much more likely that Elder Ballard learned of Russell Brunson through non-tithing means.

 

[Craig Speechly]

39 minutes ago, webbles said:

Looking at the images you posted, it seems that Russell Brunson, the founder of ClickFunnels and a wealthy person, was contacted by Elder Ballard and asked to donate to OUR.  Russell Brunson apparently was happy to donate and was also involved with the "Operation Toussaint" movie.

I'm not seeing anything saying that Elder Ballard used tithing records to look up Russell Brunson.  It could be just as likely that Elder Ballard learned about Russell Brunson by virtue that he is a founder of a successful SaaS business.  There's probably other ways that Elder Ballard could have learned about Russell Brunson.  I don't see how this proves anything to do with tithing records.

I’m willing to accept all of your assumptions which is why I left that question open in my OP. But other than tithing, what other lists do GA’s have access to of wealthy tithe payers?   I do believe the truth is much less flattering than the church has acknowledged. 

[Craig Speechly]

10 minutes ago, webbles said:

I had some fun reading articles about this and others about the possible lies from the church and Elder Ballard.  And after reading all that, it seems like there is a lot of logic jumps.

First logic jump I saw was that the initial statement from the church on Elder Ballard and Tim Ballard was a lie.  The claim is that the statement says that Elder Ballard didn't help with Tim Ballard and yet we have proof from Russell Brunson that Elder Ballard did help.  Unfortunately, it appears that this claim is from a misreading of the initial statement of the church (https://www.deseret.com/2023/9/15/23875331/tim-ballard-senate-church-of-jesus-christ).  The statement never says that Elder Ballard didn't help.  In fact, it says the opposite.  It wasn't until Elder Ballard learned of a misuse of his name that Elder Ballard stopped helping Tim Ballard.  So the statement and Russell Brunson are not in conflict with each other.  Elder Ballard wanted to help protect children and it appears he felt that OUR was doing that and so he helped out by referring Russell Brunson to Tim Ballard (and probably many other things).

The second logic jump is that Russell Brunson's statement shows that Elder Ballard was using tithing records.  Russell Brunson was known to be wealthy (2020 PR release saying he is a successful author and co-founder of a successful SaaS https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/russell-brunson-best-selling-author-and-100-million-entrepreneur-of-clickfunnels-launches-third-book-traffic-secrets-301068009.html).  You wouldn't need a tithing record to learn that about him.  The only reason why people are thinking that Elder Ballard used tithing records was because of OUR's statement that the Davis County attorney alleged the church did.  Since the attorney, OUR, and the church have publicly denounced that, it seems much more likely that Elder Ballard learned of Russell Brunson through non-tithing means.

 

And I accept that your assumptions could also be true.  But we also don’t know if Elder Ballard learned of Brunson’s wealth from a tithing list either. 
 

I also have firsthand knowledge that Elder Ballard has a history of soliciting funds from wealthy members for a variety of projects, both church related and non.  So nothing about this revelation comes as a surprise to me. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Craig Speechly

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

I’m willing to accept all of your assumptions which is why I left that question open in my OP. But other than tithing, what other lists do GA’s have access to of wealthy tithe payers?   I do believe the truth is much less flattering than the church has acknowledged. 

I don't have any lists of wealthy tithe payers and yet I do know of some people who appear wealthy, most just by the lifestyle they lead.  Others it's because I know someone who knows them personally.

A lot of the world manages to find wealthy people without needing a list of tithe payers to do so.  I'm not sure why Elder Ballard would be different.

[MustardSeed]

IMO the church is small.  Connections are made due to 3 degrees of separation all the time. If elder Ballard was highly motivated to support the biz, I could see him getting information either by his own mining or by somebody offering it unsolicited and him pursuing that lead personally.  Maybe elder Ballard simply overfunctioned.  Plenty of room here for alternatives to an official list being disseminated. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by MustardSeed

[The Nehor]

Honestly I don’t trust Russell Brunson after news organizations pulled his last story. They wouldn’t do that just for fun.

Plus he is the type of person that I distrust in general.

[Craig Speechly]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

IMO the church is small.  Connections are made due to 3 degrees of separation all the time. If elder Ballard was highly motivated to support the biz, I could see him getting information either by his minding or by somebody offering it unsolicited and him pursuing that lead personally.  Maybe elder Ballard simply overfunctioned.  Plenty of room here for alternatives to an official list being disseminated. 

And it’s probably a complete unrelated coincidence that out of the hundreds if not thousands of financial advisors available that Elder Ballard’s son in law was chosen to manages all of O.U.R.’s funds too. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Craig Speechly

[webbles]

35 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

And it’s probably a complete unrelated coincidence that Elder Ballard’s son in law is the financial advisor for O.U.R.’s funds too. 

That's probably why Elder Ballard learned about OUR and wanted to support it.  The goal of OUR is a good goal.  The fact that OUR apparently wasn't being forthright or doing things wrong doesn't change the fact that they looked good.  If I had been a position to help OUR years ago, I probably would have as I want to help trafficked children.  I don't see anything wrong with Elder Ballard wanting to help OUR.  I would actually find it amiss if he hadn't wanted to help OUR.

[Craig Speechly]

1 minute ago, webbles said:

That's probably why Elder Ballard learned about OUR and wanted to support it.  The goal of OUR is a good goal.  The fact that OUR apparently wasn't being forthright or doing things wrong doesn't change the fact that they looked good.  If I had been a position to help OUR years ago, I probably would have as I want to help trafficked children.  I don't see anything wrong with Elder Ballard wanting to help OUR.  I would actually find it amiss if he hadn't wanted to help OUR.

The cause of helping save trafficked children is a worthy cause and why shouldn’t Elder Ballards family benefit from it. 

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Craig Speechly said:

And I accept that your assumptions could also be true.  But we also don’t know if Elder Ballard learned of Brunson’s wealth from a tithing list either. 
 

I also have firsthand knowledge that Elder Ballard has a history of soliciting funds from wealthy members for a variety of projects, both church related and non.  So nothing about this revelation comes as a surprise to me. 

We have 3 separate organizations/people who have stated publicly that no tithing list was used or that there was insubstantial evidence.  The church, OUR, and the Davis County attorney general.  It feels like a stretch at this point to say a tithing list was used.

The fact that you have firsthand knowledge of Elder Ballard soliciting funds from wealthy members isn't evidence of a tithing list either.  I think it is an extreme stretch to say that tithing lists were used when the only evidence we had to it turned out be insubstantial.

[webbles]

2 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

The cause of helping save trafficked children is a worthy cause and why shouldn’t Elder Ballards family benefit from it. 

I don't understand this.  Are you saying that Elder Ballard was trying to funnel money to his son-in-law?  Why do you think Elder Ballard wasn't being honest about trying to help trafficked children?  Why do you think he was trying to benefit from it?

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

Ok, the church has released a statement denying that lists of high income tithing donors have been released to third parties outside of the church  But what if that is both true and false at the same time? What if the tithing list was actually accessed from inside the church for the benefit of an outside third party organization?  Is that any different?

Evidently, according to a FB post by a wealthy member of the church, Elder Ballard himself made a random, out of the blue, call to this wealthy member to solicit a large donation for Tim Ballard and O.U.R.  
 

This member, had no prior relationship with Elder Ballard at that time, 

I wonder how Elder Ballard knew this member was so very wealthy? Was it from a list of wealthy tithe payers or perhaps Elder Ballard has some other means to know who wealthy church member are, but it seems that things are not as cut and dry as the denial would have us think. 

Is any of this , if true, illegal? No  Has the church been completely honest?  I’ll let each of you decide that for yourselves. 
 

 

 

"Is any of this , if true... Has the church been completely honest?" -- Wow, some folks never learn...

None of this is true because if it were, I would have been on the list.

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, webbles said:

I had some fun reading articles about this and others about the possible lies from the church and Elder Ballard.  And after reading all that, it seems like there is a lot of logic jumps.

First logic jump I saw was that the initial statement from the church on Elder Ballard and Tim Ballard was a lie.  The claim is that the statement says that Elder Ballard didn't help with Tim Ballard and yet we have proof from Russell Brunson that Elder Ballard did help.  Unfortunately, it appears that this claim is from a misreading of the initial statement of the church (https://www.deseret.com/2023/9/15/23875331/tim-ballard-senate-church-of-jesus-christ).  The statement never says that Elder Ballard didn't help.  In fact, it says the opposite.  It wasn't until Elder Ballard learned of a misuse of his name that Elder Ballard stopped helping Tim Ballard.  So the statement and Russell Brunson are not in conflict with each other.  Elder Ballard wanted to help protect children and it appears he felt that OUR was doing that and so he helped out by referring Russell Brunson to Tim Ballard (and probably many other things).

The second logic jump is that Russell Brunson's statement shows that Elder Ballard was using tithing records.  Russell Brunson was known to be wealthy (2020 PR release saying he is a successful author and co-founder of a successful SaaS https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/russell-brunson-best-selling-author-and-100-million-entrepreneur-of-clickfunnels-launches-third-book-traffic-secrets-301068009.html).  You wouldn't need a tithing record to learn that about him.  The only reason why people are thinking that Elder Ballard used tithing records was because of OUR's statement that the Davis County attorney alleged the church did.  Since the attorney, OUR, and the church have publicly denounced that, it seems much more likely that Elder Ballard learned of Russell Brunson through non-tithing means.

Three thoughts:

First, I concur with your assessment and appreciate your clarifying remarks.

Second, even with your clarifications in place, I am (mildly) troubled at the prospect of Pres. Ballard, or any other General Authority, calling members of the Church and asking them to consider donating financially to a "pet cause."

Third, I think this story may actually end up as a cautionary tale for both leaders and members of the Church, a reminder of the wisdom of the Church's cautious approach to partnering or otherwise working with or donating to charitable/humanitarian organizations.  These days the Church is being hectored for not donating enough of its wealth to such causes, yet here we see the need for the Church to carefully evaluate and "vet" any such organization prior to working with or donating to them.  See, e.g., here:

Quote

In addition to responding to disasters across the globe, Church humanitarian funds have been used to provide food programs, vision care, maternal and newborn care, clean water and sanitation, immunizations, wheelchairs, and help for refugees.

However, reaching out and helping those in need is “a very complex endeavor,” he said.

The Church can’t just send out cash and checks to people, he said. “It has to be done in an organized way, and with follow up, with training, a lot of expertise and good partners. Otherwise, you just don’t get any results.”

Bishop Davies said the Church is careful to select humanitarian projects and partners that will make the best use of the Church’s funds. “We are very careful with the widow’s mite,” referring to the biblical parable by the Savior.

“We recognize that this comes from the faith of Church members and we want to make certain that they have the trust and confidence that their donations are being managed in a careful and thoughtful and very safe way for them and for the Church,” said Bishop Davies.

Leaders often ask themselves “what else can we do, where else can we go, who else can we work with,” said Bishop Waddell.  

Every time the Church reaches out, the objective is to bless both the giver and the receiver, added Bishop Caussé. So in addition to selecting good humanitarian projects, Church leaders are always mindful of providing service opportunities for Church members. “It’s not just a matter of money,” he said. It’s also done as members “devote time and resources and efforts to help others.”
...
As to the question, is the Church doing enough, Bishop Caussé said, “We hope we can do more and more in the future, and as the Church grows, there will be more opportunities for doing good.”

• "Latter-day Saint Charities carefully and thoroughly assesses each partner. 'The last thing you want to do is just give them money and then you really don’t know where it goes,' Bishop Davies said. 'So we have both missionaries and area staff on the ground, feet on the ground, who actually are there, they can see that food’s being distributed, or equipment, or schools are being built as part of our program.'"
• "Reaching out and helping those in need is 'a very complex endeavor.'"
• "The Church can’t just send out cash and checks to people, he said. 'It has to be done in an organized way, and with follow up, with training, a lot of expertise and good partners. Otherwise, you just don’t get any results.'"
• "Bishop Davies said the Church is careful to select humanitarian projects and partners that will make the best use of the Church’s funds. 'We are very careful with the widow’s mite.'"
• "We recognize that this comes from the faith of Church members and we want to make certain that they have the trust and confidence that their donations are being managed in a careful and thoughtful and very safe way for them and for the Church."
• “We hope we can do more and more in the future, and as the Church grows, there will be more opportunities for doing good.”

See also here:

Quote

“The people who say we’re not doing our part, that is just not true,” Bishop Waddell said. “We’re talking close to $1 billion in that welfare/humanitarian area on an annual basis. Yes, we are using our resources to bless the poor and the needy as well as all of the other responsibilities we have as a church.”

The figure includes all humanitarian and welfare expenditures, including fast offering aid.

The budget for humanitarian work “has gone up dramatically,” Bishop Waddell said.

In fact, Bishop Caussé added, humanitarian expenditures have doubled in the past five years.

“And we believe they are going to increase fast,” he said.

Increases in humanitarian and welfare spending are driven first by the contributions and volunteerism of church members, the bishops said. The other major factor is how quickly the church can ensure new avenues for precise giving. For example, Latter-day Saint Charities carefully and thoroughly assesses each partner. “The last thing you want to do is just give them money and then you really don’t know where it goes,” Bishop Davies said. “So we have both missionaries and area staff on the ground, feet on the ground, who actually are there, they can see that food’s being distributed, or equipment, or schools are being built as part of our program.”

I don't know if Pres. Ballard solicited members of the Church to provide financial support to OUR.  If he did, I would find that troubling.  I would not have had qualms regarding most other people, though, since they are not in positions of ecclesiastical power/influence.  My sense is that the General Authorities work hard to avoid what is being alleged / speculated about here.

In any event, if we assume that Pres. Ballard did in fact make such solicitations in relation to OUR, he likely would have done so without having "vetted" OUR in ways similar to how the Church "vets" the organizations it works with on philanthropic/humanitarian projects.

As I have noted previously, there are substantial practical and logistical challenges the Church has in administering humanitarian work.  It needs to partner with other groups to scale out such efforts, which means that these groups must be vetted, even heavily so (as I have previously mentioned, the "humanitarian" sector has all sorts of problems with corruption, mismanagement, etc.).  I think this challenges are often overlooked by people who are criticizing the Church's humanitarian efforts.  I commented on this back in January:

Quote

Prudence in Charitable Giving: There seems to be, in the minds of some, the notion that solving most or all social ills involves just mindlessly throwing money at them, typically money forcibly taken by the government and diverted to politically-connected and -privileged programs and groups, and regardless of the actual effectiveness of such programs/groups. 

I recently saw this video clip of Joe Rogan in which he raises some pretty interesting points {about how California is spending, and wasting, many billions of dollars on "homelessness" because they are not properly vetting or managing the private groups receiving funding}:
...
I raise this in light of this comment from the 2020 D-News article quoted above:

Quote

Increases in humanitarian and welfare spending are driven first by the contributions and volunteerism of church members, the bishops said. The other major factor is how quickly the church can ensure new avenues for precise giving. For example, Latter-day Saint Charities carefully and thoroughly assesses each partner. “The last thing you want to do is just give them money and then you really don’t know where it goes,” Bishop Davies said. “So we have both missionaries and area staff on the ground, feet on the ground, who actually are there, they can see that food’s being distributed, or equipment, or schools are being built as part of our program.”

“We have an obligation to the members of the church who pay their tithes and offerings to make sure that is going to organizations or areas that will actually meet a need,” Bishop Waddell said. “The members of the church have a right to trust that it’s going to be managed and handled well and not just thrown at issues.”

I think that makes a lot of sense.  The Church's funds are sacred, and ought not to be thrown around willy-nilly like the huge-and-hugely-wasteful "Hey, let's just throw more money at it" approach taken in California.
...

The Church could donate billions of dollars of its accumulated funds to any and every and any social program, regardless of how actually effective such programs are, regardless of whether such programs - as Bishop Waddell so aptly put it - "will actually meet a need."

The Church does not do this.  Instead, it carefully vets philanthropic partners, and also keeps sufficient reserves for "rainy day" events like COVID, the war in Ukraine, and so on.
...
Bishop Waddell was quite correct.  The Church does have "an obligation to the members of the church who pay their tithes and offerings to make sure that is going to organizations or areas that will actually meet a need."  

If OUR had been "vetted," I suspect it would not have passed.

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

IMO the church is small.  Connections are made due to 3 degrees of separation all the time. If elder Ballard was highly motivated to support the biz, I could see him getting information either by his minding or by somebody offering it unsolicited and him pursuing that lead personally.  Maybe elder Ballard simply overfunctioned.  Plenty of room here for alternatives to an official list being disseminated. 

I live over 500 miles away from where I grew up.  My son is serving a mission thousands of miles away from both places.  He's serving with the nephew of my best friend from the 7th grade (who I haven't seen in decades since we moved away when I was 14). 

I went to highschool with a girl from Wyoming who now lives in Tooele.  I served a mission with a girl in California who now lives in Tooele.  My husband served a mission with a girl from South Africa in England who now lives in Tooele.  All three of those women are friends with each other because they are in the same ward (which I discovered via Facebook).

The church is weirdly small.

[ksfisher]

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I live over 500 miles away from where I grew up.  My son is serving a mission thousands of miles away from both places.  He's serving with the nephew of my best friend from the 7th grade (who I haven't seen in decades since we moved away when I was 14).

My daughter ended up sharing a room at the MTC with a cousin of hers.  Don't recall which degree it is right now, but they share the same great-great-grandfather. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by ksfisher

[Craig Speechly]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

I don't understand this.  Are you saying that Elder Ballard was trying to funnel money to his son-in-law?  Why do you think Elder Ballard wasn't being honest about trying to help trafficked children?  Why do you think he was trying to benefit from it?

I’m only pointing out what I know from the public record. Elder Ballards family has benefited from his association with OUR. 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

I’m only pointing out what I know from the public record. Elder Ballards family has benefited from his association with OUR. 

Everyone who was ever paid by OUR for working for them has benefited from it.  Does that matter?