Hmmm…The Tithing List Plot Thickens

[Craig Speechly]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

We met in Moscow and became good friends with a couple who included the woman who was my husband’s first crush.  At the time we were residents of Canada (on sabbatical to teach in Moscow on a grant).  The woman who took in my husband’s mother when she immigrated from Australia was home taught by my husband when we were in Canada.  My husband has run into a few people at UVU who knew my dad because he helped them out when we lived in San Francisco.  I still don’t know how my dad’s name came up (maybe they mentioned where they used to live).  My son’s first job in Provo was with the brother in law of one of his best friends in Canada, which led to some nicely providing jobs for my son and possible massive wealth generators if they ever get going.

OMGoodness….you’re husband’s an Aussie? From where?

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

So it’s a completely random isolated occurrence that Elder Ballards son in law  became the financial advisor for OUR’s funds?  Ok 

I can easily see Elder Ballard mentioning OUR’s efforts at the dinner table or other family event and his son in law getting interested and checking it out on his own.  
 

Please provide the info that his son in law became financial advisor for OUR.  I have not seen actual documentation this is so, just claims.  This is a CFR btw.

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Every non profit organization ever has the same need to contact big donors and solicit funds. None of them have access to an LDS database. There are tons of tools and best practices to do this.

Why do you think the only option OUR had here was a church database?

Why is it so far outside the realm of credibility that OUR and its allies did the same things that every other non-profit in the history of the world has done to identify major donors and get themselves off the ground?

No doubt. When I was in Utah working with charitable organizations it was pretty easy to know/know of some who were pretty wealthy.  I no longer could tell you many of their names because it has been more than a decade and my memory is bad.  Now that I am in Arizona I know/know of some of the people down here. 

But that's not the only way I know.  There is one many I knew from another stake through my stake calling.  There are people I might have known through my visiting teachees job. There are some I have met through government connections. 

And here's the thing - as far as people who know people I am a nobody.  I don't have any big titles.  I would assume that a man who has been a general authority in Utah since 1976 and an apostle since 1985 would have a ton more contacts than I do! Weirdly, I even met him and sat and talked with him in his office in high school through one of his contacts. And even more weirdly through a completely different way, I could have had a contact through OUR if things had gone a little differently.   So it's so weird that someone thinks this would not be an easy thing to connect them.

Edited November 11 by Rain

[Craig Speechly]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

I know tons and can easily find out more.

Fair enough and I accept that you feel Elder Ballard use some means other than his access to tithe payer lists to gather name/names to solicit funds for third party organizations and I haven’t said he didn’t also. It’s definitely one of the possibilities. 

Edited November 10 by Craig Speechly

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

Actually the Davis County DA investigation does list other witnesses David Lopez, a former Navy Seal and OUR rescue member also corroborated Elder Ballards business involvement in the Slave Stealer LLC project but I’ve seen nothing in the form of written proof to back up his accusation.   He has since had a falling out with Tim Ballard. 

CFR he knew it personally and not that they got this info from Tim Ballard.  Every claim I looked at in the investigation (I believe I looked at them all that were provided publicly) got it from Tim Ballard or did not say how they knew it and I am pretty sure that included Lopez.

Since “Tim Ballard is a massive liar” (I should trademark this), I like to see actual claims vs what people report about the claims.

You have three outstanding CFRs now.

One that Russell Brunson said he had never met or known Elder Ballard before.  Two that the son in law (Brad Brower) is the actual financial advisor and this is not just claimed by someone who may or may not actually know.  (Brad Brower is a manager for Indulgent Foods according to Lynn Packer, seems unlikely he would be a financial advisor.) And three, the above request.

I am not disputing them, I just want to know what is actually known, so I know whether to include it in my analysis or to repeat it.

Edited November 11 by Calm

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

Fair enough and I accept that you feel Elder Ballard use some means other than his access to tithe payer lists to gather name/names to solicit funds for third party organizations and I haven’t said he didn’t also. It’s definitely one of the possibilities. 

That you stated something that amounts to “doesn’t pass the smell test” for you suggests you and I have a very different view of the implications of what we do know.

Quote

If you feel any of this passes the smell  test  then you and I just have very different senses of smell  and I wonder if this matter involved anyone other than a prominent GA and his family if you’d feel the same way.

 

Edited November 10 by Calm

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

OMGoodness….you’re husband’s an Aussie? From where?

My husband’s mother.  Brisbane, I believe.  He was born after she immigrated.  Most of her family immigrated to Utah eventually, her by way of Canada as she was an adult and for some reason the US took its time accepting her while her mom and dad and younger siblings were accepted quickly.  One brother stayed in Australia.  I got the impression he wasn’t as committed to the Church as the rest.  His current location is likely somewhere in the middle of the Pacific Ocean as he was sadly lost on one of his many sailing trips (another good reason not to immigrate to Utah).  Family romance says pirates got him.

Edited November 11 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

As a Catholic, I’m just tossing out there that the etymology of nepotism is pretty interesting. Look it up!
 

(as a word nerd, I love all etymologies)

[Craig Speechly]

32 minutes ago, Calm said:

CFR he knew it personally and not that they got this info from Tim Ballard.  Every claim I looked at in the investigation (I believe I looked at them all that were provided publicly) got it from Tim Ballard or did not say how they knew it and I am pretty sure that included Lopez.

Since “Tim Ballard is a massive liar” (I should trademark this), I like to see actual claims vs what people report about the claims.

You have three outstanding CFRs now.

One that Russell Brunson said he had never met or known Elder Ballard before.  Two that the son in law (Brad Bower iirc) is the actual financial advisor and this is not just claimed by someone who may or may not actually know.  And three, the above request.

I am not disputing them, I just want to know what is actually known, so I know whether to include it in my analysis or to repeat it.

Lopez also provided investigators with a text message from Brian Norton, the head of Slave Stealers, that referred to President Ballard as a “key equity holder” and a “silent partner” in Slave Stealers.  

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

As a Catholic, I’m just tossing out there that the etymology of nepotism is pretty interesting. Look it up!
 

(as a word nerd, I love all etymologies)

Oh my!

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

Lopez also provided investigators with a text message from Brian Norton, the head of Slave Stealers, that referred to President Ballard as a “key equity holder” and a “silent partner” in Slave Stealers.  

Thank you.  Unfortunately that doesn’t say where Brian Norton learned that info, but does raise the likelihood. 
Please provide the link as well where you got this from so I can read if there is more info (this is required as part of CFRs).

The hyperlink provides nothing.

[Craig Speechly]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Thank you.  Unfortunately that doesn’t say where Brian Norton learned that info, but does raise the likelihood. 
Please provide the link as well where you got this from so I can read if there is more info (this is required as part of CFRs).

The hyperlink provides nothing.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23993377-marion-records

Eat your heart out…heres the full report. Check out page 20-21. But the entire report is interesting 

Edited November 11 by Craig Speechly

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Craig Speechly said:

Who ever said it was nefarious? It was an insider business arrangement nothing nefarious about it. 

So why bring it up if it means nothing?

[Calm]

39 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23993377-marion-records

Eat your heart out…heres the full report. Check out page 20-21. But the entire report is interesting 

Thank you.  Hoping to see other CFRs as well soon.

So Dave would have to give 5% each of his company to both Tim Ballard and Brian Norton for the privilege of investing in Slave Stealers.  Isn’t that unethical? Not typical business practice I hope.

If so, not seeing Brian Norton as the most reliable source there.

Edited November 11 by Calm

[webbles]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

CFR, please.  Per the archived story:

• "'I found out about Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad was actually from Elder Ballard,' Brunson said. 'He personally called me and asked me to help Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad."
• "'Elder Ballard’s the one that introduced me.'"
• "'Tim never came to me and like told me some big story, and like tried to get me in. It was the opposite way around.'"
• "Brunson has made no further statement on social media about the Tim Ballard situation, and he had not responded to requests for comment from ABC4.com prior to this piece being published."

References, please for your statement here: "Russell Brunson, a wealthy member, has said that Elder Ballard solicited him to provide financial support to OUR."

Thanks,

-Smac

In his video (which is on facebook and I don't have a link to it but mormonstories has a video that includes the video starting at 31:04 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2meOuCzf1Q), Russell Brunson says that he has been supporting Tim Ballard for the last few years (31:13), he has been donating to OUR (31:28), and that Elder Ballard personally called him to help Tim Ballard (32:05).

After listening to Russell Brunson, the help that Elder Ballard requested sounds just like money donation and/or time donation.  And time donation is a form of financial support.  How would you explain what Brunson says in a way that isn't providing financial support?

[Craig Speechly]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

So why bring it up if it means nothing?

I never said it was nothing. I mentioned it because it’s cronyism. I scratch your back you scratch mine, quid pro quo cronyism. 

Edited November 11 by Craig Speechly

[Craig Speechly]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Thank you.  Hoping to see other CFRs as well soon.

So Dave would have to give 5% each of his company to both Tim Ballard and Brian Norton for the privilege of investing in Slave Stealers.  Isn’t that unethical? Not typical business practice I hope.

If so, not seeing Brian Norton as the most reliable source there.

Let’s be honest. You wouldn’t accept any source unless it supported your POV. Why would Norton lie? What’s his motivation? He was in a position to know, why lie?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

Let’s be honest. You wouldn’t accept any source unless it supported your POV. Why would Norton lie? What’s his motivation? He was in a position to know, why lie?

Quite to the contrary. You obviously don’t read all my posts on the board as I have come out critical of the Church on several things, including leaders’ ultimate responsibility for whomever instructed signing managers to lie on reporting forms that they knew the info contained and it was correct.  Finding that distasteful fact out was highly disturbing to me and my POV.

I never grew up idol worshipping leaders or thinking they were unlikely to be human.  I pretty much treat any accusation this way unless I have already established enough for myself that someone is a liar (cough “Tim Ballard” cough) or a cheat or an abuser, etc.

As for Norton, if what Lopez is reported as saying about him is accurate, he has the same motivation as Ballard in this case…money.  It makes the company he is trying to get people to invest on look more appealing , safer. He was telling the guy to give him 5% of his equity and then he would allow Lopez to invest in the company, which sounds highly unethical…unless it means something else. I am open to interpretation. 

Do you tend to believe what people say who take bribes, kickbacks, or whatever you would call that in order to get people to give them that money or to invest other money?  I don’t, but maybe I am prejudiced against immoral business practices and am incorrect for assuming if you are willing to in essence steal, you are willing to lie. 

Edited November 11 by Calm

[Craig Speechly]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

You have three outstanding CFRs now.

One that Russell Brunson said he had never met or known Elder Ballard before.

 

3 hours ago, Calm said:

 

I’ve already told you that Brunson said so in his FB post. Google it

Its at the 31:04 mark (copied from above)

Two that the son in law (Brad Bower iirc) is the actual financial advisor and this is not just claimed by someone who may or may not actually know.  And three, the above request.

note his investment company 

3 hours ago, Calm said:

 

Edited November 11 by Craig Speechly

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

 

note his investment company 

 

So? (Not a challenging “so”, a not following “so”)

Btw, the chart has a “Bradford J Brower” associated with TBB Investments, Ltd and a “Brad Brower” connected with Indulgent Foods.  Does anyone know for sure it is the same person?  There appears to be at least a father and son sharing those names.***
 
And as far as Ivy Properties and TBB Investments, ltd, they appear to be defunct for a number of years***, possibly prior to when Slave Stealers was set up….so the connection is even more cloudy to me.

***I know this because I did research for myself.  And not only that, I am willing to share my source without being asked.

https://www.corporationwiki.com/Utah/Salt-Lake-City/bradford-j-brower/119172111.aspx

***oh look, sharing sources without being asked again…

https://www.whitepages.com/name/Brad-Brower/UT?fs=1&searchedName=Brad brower&searchedLocation=Utah

One in his 30s, one in his 60s and it looks like father and son only sharing names as grandfather does not…or rather did not.

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/thespectrum/name/leslie-brower-obituary?id=24399709

Edited November 11 by Calm

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

 

note his investment company 

 

Are you responding to me in the quotes I am allegedly commenting in?  If you are, please correct formatting as I tend to ignore quotes as already read or my own completely. Plus it is dang confusing for anyone else reading. 
 

BTW, “Google it” is not acceptable according to board rules.

Nor is not giving a time stamp for a video or page numbers (just an fyi for anyone reading).

Links or citations for all work product of others are required as well. If you quote someone online, you need to provide a link as well as use quotes to signify, otherwise it’s plagiarism. If you use someone else’s chart, same thing. 

Edited November 11 by Calm

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

Its at the 31:04 mark (copied from above)

No, it’s not. There is a reference to Elder Ballard calling him about a minute later to refer Tim Ballard, who he did not know before that (he says nothing about how he does or does not know Elder Ballard prior to this), to him, but your additional detail of Brunson not knowing Elder Ballard before this is not there. 
 

Quote

Did you read in my post where I said that this wealthy member did not personally know Elder Ballard prior to his random call seeking a donation for O.U.R.?

 

Edited November 11 by Calm

[rpn]

10 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

I’m willing to accept all of your assumptions which is why I left that question open in my OP. But other than tithing, what other lists do GA’s have access to of wealthy tithe payers?   I do believe the truth is much less flattering than the church has acknowledged. 

No one needs a list.  Anyone who reads the news or follows economic development or goes to charity events or belongs to a philanthropic cause or attended the same university or ________ knows the names of lots of people who donate to causes and/or has access to funds that they might want to spend on charitable causes for tax purposes.  

[Craig Speechly]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

CFR he knew it personally and not that they got this info from Tim Ballard.  Every claim I looked at in the investigation (I believe I looked at them all that were provided publicly) got it from Tim Ballard or did not say how they knew it and I am pretty sure that included Lopez.

Since “Tim Ballard is a massive liar” (I should trademark this), I like to see actual claims vs what people report about the claims.

You have three outstanding CFRs now.

One that Russell Brunson said he had never met or known Elder Ballard before.  Two that the son in law (Brad Brower) is the actual financial advisor and this is not just claimed by someone who may or may not actually know.  (Brad Brower is a manager for Indulgent Foods according to Lynn Packer, seems unlikely he would be a financial advisor.) And three, the above request.

I am not disputing them, I just want to know what is actually known, so I know whether to include it in my analysis or to repeat it.

Mrs. Calm. Today is football day. Won’t be doing any more cfr’s   Disregard anything I’ve said that you don’t find believable but each of the 3 items you’ve requested a cfr on have been reported on or are in the Davis county report I’ve already provided. I’m not going to go through the report or Find Brunsons FB post for you, honestly don’t have time so just don’t believe me. 
 

Go Utes!  

Edited November 11 by Craig Speechly

[bluebell]

16 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

I never said it was nothing. I mentioned it because it’s cronyism. I scratch your back you scratch mine, quid pro quo cronyism. 

It’s not cronyism.