Hmmm…The Tithing List Plot Thickens

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

I’m not going to go through the report or Find Brunsons FB post for you, honestly don’t have time so just don’t believe me. 

I won’t, because I have watched his entire video when he first posted it as well as now and nowhere in that post does he state he hadn’t met Elder Ballard before.

You post a lot of material, but it often doesn’t say what you are claiming it says, like the chart that says nothing about OUR and features a defunct investment company that appears to have been inactive at least since 2016 so if OUR ever used it as an adviser, it was for a short time in the beginning only.  And as far as being in the Davis County report, a search did not come up with TBB investments, so not in there either.

Since watching the FB takes only a few minutes, I suggest others watch it and see how accurate your claim is.  That you chose to post a partial clip to John Dehlin’s show rather than the actual FB post that took me maybe 2 minutes to find once I knew for sure who you were referring to suggests to me that is where you watched it instead of the whole video on Brunson’s page since if you knew where it was you could have found the link and posted it in the amount of time you took to write the above post.  Those who do more work to avoid posting references than it takes to post them (and you have wasted a lot of time and effort being vague in your claims) have rarely been able to back up their claims in my experience.

If this claim is wrong, it seems quite likely you are wrong about other things you have failed to support.  If you are wrong on things that don’t matter, I don’t see any reason to believe you on things that do.

https://www.facebook.com/RussellBrunsonLIVE/posts/pfbid02REZrjJAQanEt3tNh4x6Rx83gfLX82FuqvX7EJZX1BjmR9MfCQZZ9TuNyhKcz5jXfl

He speaks about Elder Ballard personally calling him at about 55 sec. And at about 6:30 he states that Tim Ballard did not come to him with a story, it was the opposite. The rest of the video is pretty much about how the media does a crappy job of reporting these days and how Tim Ballard is a great man.

PS:  took me approximately 20 minutes to write this post and that includes watching the entire 7ish minute long video again to find the time stamps.

Below are the relevant parts of the FB video in a screenshot of the screenshot in the OP if you don’t want to watch it on FB or find it elsewhere.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

21 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

OMGoodness….you’re husband’s an Aussie? From where?

This is another example of poor comprehension and jumping to conclusions, which indicates to me this is likely a habit of Craig’s  

He interprets my comment** to mean my husband is Australian when what I actually said is my husband’s mother immigrated from Australia.  But I did not say anything about her husband (who happens to be from Panguitch, Utah iirc) or her son (Utah born and bred) being with her at that time and likely would have at least mentioned if my husband had also lived with this woman he was home teaching 50, 60 years later rather than just commenting it being remarkable he had connected with a woman who had taken in his mom.

I decided to ignore the misinterpretation originally, but now he is refusing to answer the CFRs, I think it reasonable to point out why he might be doing so….because he can’t actually find the support he claimed was there, likely because he often misreads comments or makes assumptions about what people mean that don’t actually align with what they said.

I would urge caution accepting anything Craig reports on that is not his own experience as accurate and to double-check any claims you want to use to confirm the information actually exists.  You really should do this for everyone, but some people you have to do it for and it is my opinion Craig is one of them based on how he reads and responds here on the board as well as claims he has failed to support.

**

Quote

The woman who took in my husband’s mother when she immigrated from Australia was home taught by my husband when we were in Canada. 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Calm

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I won’t, because I have watched his entire video when he first posted it as well as now and nowhere in that post does he state he hadn’t met Elder Ballard before.

You post a lot of material, but it often doesn’t say what you are claiming it says, like the chart that says nothing about OUR and features a defunct investment company that appears to have been inactive at least since 2016 so if OUR ever used it as an adviser, it was for a short time in the beginning only.  And as far as being in the Davis County report, a search did not come up with TBB investments, so not in there either.

Since watching the FB takes only a few minutes, I suggest others watch it and see how accurate your claim is.  That you chose to post a clip to John Dehlin’s show rather than the actual FB post that took me maybe 2 minutes to find once I knew for sure who you were referring to suggests to me that is where you watched it instead of the whole video on Brunson’s page since if you knew where it was you could have found the link and posted it in the amount of time you took to write the above post.  Those who do more work to avoid posting references than it takes to post them (and you have wasted a lot of time and effort being vague in your claims) have rarely been able to back up their claims in my experience.

If this claim is wrong, it seems quite likely you are wrong about other things you have failed to support.  If you are wrong on things that don’t matter, I don’t see any reason to believe you on things that do.

https://www.facebook.com/RussellBrunsonLIVE/posts/pfbid02REZrjJAQanEt3tNh4x6Rx83gfLX82FuqvX7EJZX1BjmR9MfCQZZ9TuNyhKcz5jXfl

He speaks about Elder Ballard personally calling him at about 55 sec. And at about 6:30 he states that Tim Ballard did not come to him with a story, it was the opposite. The rest of the video is pretty much about how the media does a crappy job of reporting these days and how Tim Ballard is a great man.

PS:  took me approximately 20 minutes to write this post and that includes watching the entire 7ish minute long video again to find the time stamps.

It is possible Craig doesn't have a facebook account and so linked to a more public video that embedded it.  You can't view that facebook video without a facebook account.  That's the reason why I also linked to a youtube video that has it embedded.  I don't use facebook and so can't view the original.

[Calm]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:36 PM, webbles said:

It is possible Craig doesn't have a facebook account and so linked to a more public video that embedded it.  You can't view that facebook video without a facebook account.  That's the reason why I also linked to a youtube video that has it embedded.  I don't use facebook and so can't view the original.

My daughter refuses to get an account and cannot view links I send her when I forget, so I understand that some people just don’t want to hook up with FB.  I limit my following to a handful of profiles and it feels like most of my feed is ads and stuff I never asked for and am not interested in.

Apparently you don’t have to be signed in, but you still need an account to view it, because I used google to find it and never signed in, just ignored the demand to do so.  Forgot about the no Access again.

Odd that Craig would tell me to go to FB if he won’t though.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Calm

[Nemesis]

On 11/11/2023 at 9:49 AM, Craig Speechly said:

Mrs. Calm. Today is football day. Won’t be doing any more cfr’s   Disregard anything I’ve said that you don’t find believable but each of the 3 items you’ve requested a cfr on have been reported on or are in the Davis county report I’ve already provided. I’m not going to go through the report or Find Brunsons FB post for you, honestly don’t have time so just don’t believe me. 
 

Go Utes!  

So I have a problem with your responses to cfr.   A response of a random go find it here is not really how it works.  Provide the reference and where to find it, just like a proper citations is used in a paper.   You make such wild accusations but wax and wane when it comes to backing them up.  Do better.  

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

So I have a problem with your responses to cfr.   A response of a random go find it here is not really how it works.  Provide the reference and where to find it, just like a proper citations is used in a paper.   You make such wild accusations but wax and wane when it comes to backing them up.  Do better.  

Thank you.  I think it is very important to try and not to make judgments on partial or interpreted information when we don’t have to*** and therefore seeing the original source material is best practice. 
 

***By partial, I mean of what is available, we never have all the information about anything even if we are right there in the middle of something, of course. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Calm

[Craig Speechly]

On 11/11/2023 at 12:30 PM, Calm said:

I won’t, because I have watched his entire video when he first posted it as well as now and nowhere in that post does he state he hadn’t met Elder Ballard before.

You post a lot of material, but it often doesn’t say what you are claiming it says, like the chart that says nothing about OUR and features a defunct investment company that appears to have been inactive at least since 2016 so if OUR ever used it as an adviser, it was for a short time in the beginning only.  And as far as being in the Davis County report, a search did not come up with TBB investments, so not in there either.

Since watching the FB takes only a few minutes, I suggest others watch it and see how accurate your claim is.  That you chose to post a partial clip to John Dehlin’s show rather than the actual FB post that took me maybe 2 minutes to find once I knew for sure who you were referring to suggests to me that is where you watched it instead of the whole video on Brunson’s page since if you knew where it was you could have found the link and posted it in the amount of time you took to write the above post.  Those who do more work to avoid posting references than it takes to post them (and you have wasted a lot of time and effort being vague in your claims) have rarely been able to back up their claims in my experience.

If this claim is wrong, it seems quite likely you are wrong about other things you have failed to support.  If you are wrong on things that don’t matter, I don’t see any reason to believe you on things that do.

https://www.facebook.com/RussellBrunsonLIVE/posts/pfbid02REZrjJAQanEt3tNh4x6Rx83gfLX82FuqvX7EJZX1BjmR9MfCQZZ9TuNyhKcz5jXfl

He speaks about Elder Ballard personally calling him at about 55 sec. And at about 6:30 he states that Tim Ballard did not come to him with a story, it was the opposite. The rest of the video is pretty much about how the media does a crappy job of reporting these days and how Tim Ballard is a great man.

PS:  took me approximately 20 minutes to write this post and that includes watching the entire 7ish minute long video again to find the time stamps.

Below are the relevant parts of the FB video in a screenshot of the screenshot in the OP if you don’t want to watch it on FB or find it elsewhere.

ince watching the FB takes only a few minutes, I suggest others watch it and see how accurate your claim is.  That you chose to post a partial clip to John Dehlin’s showrather than the actual FB post …

 

I merely copied and pasted a link another poster had already posted in this thread. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 11/10/2023 at 3:38 AM, Craig Speechly said:

This member, had no prior relationship with Elder Ballard at that time, 

As an exmormon critic, I have no qualms criticizing Ballard (either one), or the church. But if I do so I’d like to do it accurately without overstating. I watched a video in which he states he received a call from Elder Ballard. No where in that video or post did he say he’d never met Elder Ballard before. It’s ok to be wrong. 
 

I think there is plenty there to criticize (the apparent ease that rich and famous Latter-day Saints have in accessing the brethren for one). I think there are also a lot of questions - like who is soliciting relationships with who. 
 

It’s a bit frustrating to see you take Calm to task on this one. She more than pretty much any poster here cares about getting the facts right, understanding people’s motivations etc. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Craig Speechly]

On 11/10/2023 at 4:54 PM, Calm said:

CFR he knew it personally and not that they got this info from Tim Ballard.  Every claim I looked at in the investigation (I believe I looked at them all that were provided publicly) got it from Tim Ballard or did not say how they knew it and I am pretty sure that included Lopez.

Since “Tim Ballard is a massive liar” (I should trademark this), I like to see actual claims vs what people report about the claims.

You have three outstanding CFRs now.

One that Russell Brunson said he had never met or known Elder Ballard before.  Two that the son in law (Brad Brower) is the actual financial advisor and this is not just claimed by someone who may or may not actually know.  (Brad Brower is a manager for Indulgent Foods according to Lynn Packer, seems unlikely he would be a financial advisor.) And three, the above request.

I am not disputing them, I just want to know what is actually known, so I know whether to include it in my analysis or to repeat it.

I’ve already responded to your CFR #1. Asked and answered 

CFR #2 

 

 

Note both Slave Stealers, LLC & Bradford Brower , the son in law, share same office. Slave Stealers, LLC no longer uses this address as it was recently changed to a St George address.   This does not prove Brower was the finance advisor. Knowing something and proving it are two different matters. I’ll try to lock this down. Can you explain why they shared an office? Huge coincidence but I accept your point it’s not proof Brower was their financial advisor. I need to nail that down. But I read it somewhere just can’t remember where 
 
CFR #3. I can not prove they had no prior relationship nor can you prove they did have one. I can only prove Elder Ballard made the initial contact with Brunson to aid OUR & Tim Ballard

Be patient  I’m doing thus from my iPhone 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Craig Speechly

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

ince watching the FB takes only a few minutes, I suggest others watch it and see how accurate your claim is.  That you chose to post a partial clip to John Dehlin’s showrather than the actual FB post …

 

I merely copied and pasted a link another poster had already posted in this thread. 

Which did not satisfy my CFR

[Calm]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It’s a bit frustrating to see you take Calm to task on this one. She more than pretty much any poster here cares about getting the facts right, understanding people’s motivations etc. 

I appreciate that you say this.  Sometimes I feel like it’s nitpicking and I get that it is annoying for many, but there has been enough times that it has turned up something important, something that changes things ( at least for me) that I don’t see myself changing this habit anytime soon.

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

I’ve already responded to your CFR #1. Asked and answered 

Edited:  it appears you assumed the CFR I made in that post was #1, it was #3 as referenced in my post since I made it last.

From the investigation report:  Dave Lopez said Brian Norton told him, but we don’t know if Brian Norton knew Elder Ballard was a silent partner from a personal exchange with Elder Ballard, if he had been told by Tim Ballard only (and Tim Ballard is a massive liar, so probability goes way down if so), or Brian Norton knowingly went along with a lie that Elder Ballard was a silent partner because it was going to put a lot of money in his pocket and in his hands.

I don’t see this as advancing the probability of Elder Ballard being a silent partner any further than the claims Tim Ballard made.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Craig Speechly said:

I’ll try to lock this down. Can you explain why they shared an office? Huge coincidence but I accept your point it’s not proof Brower was their financial advisor. I need to nail that down. But I read it somewhere just can’t remember where 

Thank you, I would appreciate the effort.  Smac and Cacheman posted this info back in September, btw.  I will try and find the post*** just in case you or anyone else is interested in the discussion about it.  I have been trying to find more reliable information on Brad Brower since then without much luck…haven’t tried that hard, it’s true.

I am curious as to why they shared at least the mailing address.  I am less sure they actually shared the office in anything but an address for contact info (Tim Ballard lists the office as a PO Box…kind of hard to make an office out of that).  Indulgent Foods appears to have their main offices there along with an outlet? of Stephen’s Chocolate (one of their big sellers), a nail salon, and a preschool.  It seems very unprofessional to me to move another company into the space you will have visitors come to show off the quality of your work, etc.  I wonder if there was an empty office space in the building and Tim Ballard was considering taking it over, but decided on St. George instead.

Where does Tim Ballard live? Just curious about the city and if it is convenient to Farmington.

My guess is the use of the address was more a temporary (3 months) accommodation address, needed to be able to be registered as a company and to get mail, but not much else, until they had more permanent offices, apparently in St. George.

I don’t think it is a coincidence, I do think it establishes there was a high probability of an ongoing relationship with Brad Brower as well as Elder Ballard (enough I am assuming that is the case), but what the relationship was is unknown as there are too many possibilities…including the smaller, imo, possibility someone else in Indulgent Foods got involved with TB (I understand from my husband, the business prof, that Indulgent Foods is doing quite well, so TB could have gone fishing for donors/investors there).

It seems weird to me that Brad Brower on the one hand manages the local setup of Indulgent Foods…seems it would be an administrative, maybe sales or distribution job (I need to talk to my husband more about the company, iirc he said they own certain foods you can see on their site, but they don’t produce or distribute the products themselves) and yet would also be financial advisor of what became a massive charity.  Seems like two very different career paths.  It also appears that his TBB Investments owned a building (and now I should go try and find out where I came across that tidbit, it didn’t seem important enough to note, but since I mentioned it, I should document it), but I can’t find anything else it did…and it doesn’t appear to have done anything for the last 7 years.

***https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75552-tim-ballard/?do=findComment&comment=1210162032

HTTPS://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75552-tim-ballard/?do=findComment&comment=1210162796

**https://indulgentfoods.com/pages/contact-us. You can see others share the address by doing a search on it.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

Do you have a link for the two? letters?  I can’t read them as they are too blurry no matter how I adjust my screen.

I am thinking they are likely the letter Smac posted back in September as I can at least read Expedite and it is in the same place.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nDpx8bPC49G08dCgVY7X4UtJ4LMVITuU/view

Edited November 13, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

Do we have any info on what Tim Ballard’s Slave Stealers company was actually involved in?  Not just what was planned or pitched on the whiteboard, but actual documented business?

https://www.bizapedia.com/ut/slave-stealers-llc.html

Did Timballard.com ever got off the ground? (I can just see a “coming soon” apparently archived through ACJ, if accessed directly, nothing happens)

Looks like it ended as timothyballard.com and timballard.net  (except that redirects to the first)

https://www.timothyballard.com  says coming soon, but links to FB, etc active Seems to be pushing The SPEAR Fund now.

The only thing I can think of is maybe the movie, Sound of Freedom.  Iirc, one of the subsidiaries of SS was Liberty and Light maybe, which maybe was one of the exec producers of the movie (from memory, need to double check as it doesn’t match whiteboard outline and wiki just has Angel Studios as distributors? and a number of individuals as producers, not including TB and Goya Cares identifies as one of the executive producers, but is not listed on wiki)***

But I can’t find any documentation he was involved on the finance side or gets a cut.  Anyone have info on this?

———

Smac mentioned before that while Brian Norton was added as a manager or something to the registration papers of the business, Slave Stealers, Elder Ballard is not listed besides him and Tim Ballard.

I only know about silent partners based on this page, but it appears to me even silent partners are put on the business registration if I am reading this correctly.  Is this true or not?

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/silentpartner.asp

***https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/sound-of-freedom-executive-produced-by-goya-cares-soars-in-theaters-301873053.html

Done enough digging for tonight….

Edited November 13, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Thank you, I would appreciate the effort.  Smac and Cacheman posted this info back in September, btw.  I will try and find the post*** just in case you or anyone else is interested in the discussion about it.  I have been trying to find more reliable information on Brad Brower since then without much luck…haven’t tried that hard, it’s true.

I am curious as to why they shared at least the mailing address.  I am less sure they actually shared the office in anything but an address for contact info (Tim Ballard lists the office as a PO Box…kind of hard to make an office out of that).  Indulgent Foods appears to have their main offices there along with an outlet? of Stephen’s Chocolate (one of their big sellers), a nail salon, and a preschool.  It seems very unprofessional to me to move another company into the space you will have visitors come to show off the quality of your work, etc.  I wonder if there was an empty office space in the building and Tim Ballard was considering taking it over, but decided on St. George instead.

Where does Tim Ballard live? Just curious about the city and if it is convenient to Farmington.

My guess is the use of the address was more a temporary (3 months) accommodation address, needed to be able to be registered as a company and to get mail, but not much else, until they had more permanent offices, apparently in St. George.

I don’t think it is a coincidence, I do think it establishes there was a high probability of an ongoing relationship with Brad Brower as well as Elder Ballard (enough I am assuming that is the case), but what the relationship was is unknown as there are too many possibilities…including the smaller, imo, possibility someone else in Indulgent Foods got involved with TB (I understand from my husband, the business prof, that Indulgent Foods is doing quite well, so TB could have gone fishing for donors/investors there).

It seems weird to me that Brad Brower on the one hand manages the local setup of Indulgent Foods…seems it would be an administrative, maybe sales or distribution job (I need to talk to my husband more about the company, iirc he said they own certain foods you can see on their site, but they don’t produce or distribute the products themselves) and yet would also be financial advisor of what became a massive charity.  Seems like two very different career paths.  It also appears that his TBB Investments owned a building (and now I should go try and find out where I came across that tidbit, it didn’t seem important enough to note, but since I mentioned it, I should document it), but I can’t find anything else it did…and it doesn’t appear to have done anything for the last 7 years.

***https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75552-tim-ballard/?do=findComment&comment=1210162032

HTTPS://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75552-tim-ballard/?do=findComment&comment=1210162796

**https://indulgentfoods.com/pages/contact-us. You can see others share the address by doing a search on it.

I've lived in Farmington, Kaysville and now Layton. If you want me to do any leg work on this I can. I personally know the son of the owners/owned Stephen's Cocoa, lived across the street from him and his wife. Also, your question about Tim Ballard's residence, from what I know he lives in Draper. My husband's hometown and my sister in law is on the city council. I'm pretty positive that she knows Tim Ballard and most likely was a fan, hope not now. 

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

If you want me to do any leg work on this I can. I personally know the son of the owners/owned Stephen's Cocoa,

As much as I would love to know why Tim Ballard shared a business address with Indulgent Foods for 3 months, I have a feeling the discomfort and maybe even pain (Tim Ballard betrayed so many) of the topic he would experience when you asked him would outweigh the few moments of glee I would get in adding the answer to my mental file cabinet. Keep your ear out for gossip though, lol. 

I don’t see a real need to find out this info at this time. I don’t see it as significant that Brad Brower might have a business relationship with OUR or Tim Ballard. Brower had to have made a living somehow and from what I can tell he did just fine, so no wonder if Tim Ballard cultivated a friendship with him as he did with Elder Ballard when the chance arose. He lied to a lot of people and was convincing somehow. 
 

Now that doesn’t mean I don’t see a possibility that nefarious deeds were done by Brower on behalf of Elder Ballard, I just see it as pretty unlikely and a simple connection between Brower and Tim Ballard is not enough to demonstrate it. Brad Brower is not Elder Ballard’s puppet. He is apparently a success in his own right, as far as I can tell. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Calm

[Craig Speechly]

Out of respect over the recent death of Elder Ballard, I’m going to ask that this thread be closed. 
 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Craig Speechly

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

Out of respect over the recent death of Elder Ballard, I’m going to ask that this thread be closed. 
 

 

 

Why are you willing to show more deference to Elder Ballard in death than in life?

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Why are you willing to show more deference to Elder Ballard in death than in life?

Probably to avoid a visit from a terrifying ghost.

[Craig Speechly]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Why are you willing to show more deference to Elder Ballard in death than in life?

I’ve been re researching my claims to get my facts straight. I have read so much information on this story and there is a lot that has not been discussed here, I got my stories conflated. I just wanted to get it right.

I found that my claims were correct, I just got my millionaires/ Billionaires,  the Ballard relative asked to handle the investments and the organization being solicited for wrong.

This pattern of seeking funds from wealthy members has been going on long before Elder Ballard got involved with OUR, Tim Ballard and Russell Brunson  

I was just offering to drop this matter out of respect  I’m more than willing to take the hit and walk away from the subject 

Or Im willing to share the additional information that supports my claims but wanted to be respectful. 
 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Craig Speechly

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

I found that my claims were correct, I just got my millionaires/ Billionaires,  the Ballard relative asked to handle the investments and the organization being solicited for wrong.

So even vaguer accusations made just reassigned once demonstrated false without documentations again.  Your way of showing respect is different,

[Craig Speechly]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

So even vaguer accusations made just reassigned once demonstrated false without documentations again.  Your way of showing respect is different,

Calm with all due respect to you. You’ve questioned my claims which is your right, you’ve asked for CFR’s, which is your right and in doing so have questioned my integrity.
 

I’ve now found where I read those accusations and while they may not satisfy you,  it is testimony that supports my initial assertions. Out of respect, I’ve offered to accept your consternation and have my integrity impugned and not provide the testimony that supports my assertions out of respect. By providing you with the evidence that supports my assertions , it serves no purpose other than to benefit me at Elder Ballards expense. I would prefer not to do that again out of respect. 
 

I’ve also on more than one occasion made mention that I have firsthand experience of Elder Ballard soliciting funds for both private aka family & organizational purposes from wealthy members. But I am under strict NDA regarding those matters so can not share those details. However this is why these so called vulgar accusations do not come as a surprise to me. 
 

Im willing to walk away from this subject out of respect. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Craig Speechly

[Craig Speechly]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Probably to avoid a visit from a terrifying ghost.

I don’t fear any apparitions.  

[Nofear]

21 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

and not provide the testimony that supports my assertions out of respect

If I did the signature line thing, this would be among the top candidates of a great signature line!