Tim Ballard

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

For everyone else’s sake I hope not; for their own and their families I really hope so. 

I just sent the link to the above article to the attorney representing the soon-to-be plaintiffs.

Thanks,

-Smac

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Glenn Beck appears to be back pedaling after talking to victims. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

think items A-D above will not be applicable to the suit against Ballard.  Items E and F, on the other hand, may apply:

From some reactions I have been reading, I am not so confident that these women and their families are physically and emotionally safe from harm.  Some are assuming the women are linked to trafficking, are criminals, etc.  And they don’t trust the government to get justice since the government is in on it.  I am certain if their names were known, at the very least their name would be dragged in muck and likely they would be getting harassing emails and they would need to take any social media private.  And any of their children would be at risk too.  I also believe they’re bosses or at least the companies they work for if employees or volunteers would be receiving complaints.

F: I know one woman who for a much less likely reason almost got fired because her company was tired of the harassment they were getting because she worked for them.  People have way too much easy power to mess up others’ lives these days and it is even more anonymous than poison pen letters.

And D…while these women are adults, it seems likely some have children.  Children whose friends may have relatives who are extremists and who buy all that Ballard is selling and then some.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

From some reactions I have been reading, I am not so confident that these women and their families are physically and emotionally safe from harm.  Some are assuming the women are linked to trafficking, are criminals, etc.  And they don’t trust the government to get justice since the government is in on it.  I am certain if their names were known, at the very least their name would be dragged in muck and likely they would be getting harassing emails and they would need to take any social media private.  And any of their children would be at risk too.  I also believe they’re bosses or at least the companies they work for if employees or volunteers would be receiving complaints.

F: I know one woman who for a much less likely reason almost got fired because her company was tired of the harassment they were getting because she worked for them.  People have way too much easy power to mess up others’ lives these days and it is even more anonymous than poison pen letters.

And D…while these women are adults, it seems likely some have children.  Children whose friends may have relatives who are extremists and who buy all that Ballard is selling and then some.

I agree Calm, is it worth putting them in harms way? I hope Tim comes clean in order to protect them.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Glenn Beck appears to be back pedaling after talking to victims. 

I am not surprised in the least they are terrified.

Though Beck seems to be saying they are terrified of Tim Ballard himself since that is the only one that he talks about, not Ballard’s more extreme supporters who were my concern.  If Tim Ballard is threatening anyone, that really ramps up the risk imo.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I agree Calm, is it worth putting them in harms way? I hope Tim comes clean in order to protect them.

Yes, I really hope I am misunderstanding Beck and it is not TB who is causing these women (and men) to be terrified because he might be able to get the extremists to calm down.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

8 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Well, if I can't put down the Grateful Dead, I guess it'll just have to be the Jerry Garcia Band

I'd love to see 1990 Jane's Addiction. Three Days > Then She Did would be awesome! Their showmanship would probably match the sphere nicely, too.

A current band? Tedeschi Trucks Band. Hot dang, they would sound so good. I'm also thinking an electronic jam band, like Lotus. They could really make good use of all the options offered by that sound system.

Ok, back to Ballard!

I am in love with the instrumentals on the Trucks Band songs.  Wow!  If there are songs that are mostly or all instrumental, please point me to them.  The lyrics…they are not resonating much with me, but I am liking the voices the longer I listen to then.  

So glad this conversation popped up.

I really need to invest in a decent sound system. Anyone have suggestions for something not too expensive?  I have already spent my birthday money.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yes, I really hope I am misunderstanding Beck and it is not TB who is causing these women (and men) to be terrified because he might be able to get the extremists to calm down.

I am more thinking of the extremists, such as the guy that threatened to kill Biden when Biden was visiting Utah and then was shot by law enforcement. Or the guy that went to Nancy Pelosi's residence to kidnap her and she wasn't home so he instead beat her husband with a hammer, luckily Pelosi's husband survived.

I've always thought that extremists or angered people in general might go after the women not Tim Ballard, wow. But who knows in this crazy world we live in.

[MiserereNobis]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

We have got to meet up for a show sometime.

Can I pour beer into your wife's shoe? (did I remember that story correctly? I hope so!)

4 hours ago, pogi said:

While I like Susan Tedeschi, I would go with Solom Burke's vocals ala the Songline album.  Solomon Burke's rich vocals over Dereck Trucks tasteful styling is something ethereal.

I get it, but I like her guitar playing overlaid on the sound, too.

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Jane's addiction is a good choice.  I was a Primus kid in that generation. Tom Morello with Rage Against the Machine on that sound system would be pretty sweet! 

Man, Jane's is a huge part of my adolescence and what led me to the Grateful Dead. And as long as we're on a religion board, yes, Jane's was part of my very unusual path to God (since jam band music was key to that).

I only listened to Primus when my friends put it on. Have you seen Electric Apricot? Les Claypool's fakumentary about jam bands? It is freaking hilarious if you know the jam band scene, as you do. He plays the drummer in the band. Their songs are awesome parody. I did a quick YouTube search for the full film, but it doesn't appear to be available in its totality. But you should still check out what's on YouTube and watch the clips and have a good laugh. They pretty much cover the whole scene.

I was never into Rage Against the Machine. Too rough for me, I guess, so I can't opine on how they'd work in the sphere.

Now, let's imagine Gregorian chant in the sphere..

 

 

 

[smac97]

Lynn Packer just published a new YouTube video: Tim and Russell Ballard: Lying about their financial dealings

It's 39 minutes long.  The blurb:

Quote

Mormon Apostle M. Russell Ballard: Victim or Accomplice?

In mid-September when a Mormon Church spokesman denounced former Operation Underground Railroad president Tim Ballard, Ballard was accused of engaging in “morally unacceptable activities.” Tim Ballard was publicly chastised for making “unauthorized use” of the name of leading LDS Apostle M. Russell Ballard (no relation). 

The same spokesman for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—Doug Andersen—told a reporter that Russell Ballard had no involvement, in any way, in any of Tim Ballard’s financial ventures.

Tim Ballard, in his own defense, said he never used Russell Ballard’s name to raise money and the two had no business dealings.

But, at this YouTube video report documents, Tim Ballard and Russell Ballard were, in fact, deeply involved in more than one business enterprise and both are lying when they deny it. 

It shows the entire Quorum of Twelve Apostles, during a secret meeting, learned first-hand about one of the Ballards’ financial ties: A shared interest in a motion picture in the works at the time, Sound of Freedom, a movie meant to immortalize and enrich Tim Ballard while promoting Mormonism, i.e., serve as a missionary tool.

This video also includes the accusation from purported, yet-unnamed victims of Tim Ballard’s alleged sexual misconduct that he, Tim Ballard, invoked Russell Ballard’s name to “spiritually manipulate” them into illicit sexual contact.

The report is 39 minutes in length.

Key bits:

1. Packer claims that both Tim Ballard and Pres. Ballard "are lying" about not having been involved in business ventures together.  Having reviewed the entire video (albeit only once), I think this is far more conclusory than it is demonstrated.

2. Packer quotes "Suzette Thomas" (I think he means Suzette Rasmussen), the attorney representing the presently-anonymous female claimants alleging misconduct by Tim Ballard.  Part of the letter Rasmussen read to the news media references "spiritual manipulation."  He apparently seems to think that this should be construed as Tim using Pres. Ballard's name to induce women into activities that are inappropriate.  This seems more about Packer's preferred spin/interpretation of the facts than the facts themselves (meanwhile, the "facts" in view are anonymous hearsay, which is pretty weak tea).

3. Packer also quotes a VICE article: "Ballard is alleged to have invoked his own personal connection to the divine and the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to persuade women who worked for and with OUR that testing their sexual chemistry with him was in essence approved by God."  Packer then asks (literally), pointing an arrow at the bolded part above, "Does that mean approved by Russell Ballard?  That's what some female victims have been saying."  This seems to go beyond the evidence so far.

4. Packer also points to an excerpt from the "Jimmy Rex" podcast (this fellow was apparently involved in some OUR operations).  Packer summarizes Jimmy's comments this way: "Rex said he had spoken with with more than one still anonymous alleged Tim Ballard mistresses, who said Tim Ballard told them Russell Ballard condoned the alleged affairs."  He then shows a clip from Rex's comments:

Quote

a long story short at that meeting Tim had mentioned that his silent partner was Amorous about the church is 5:05 smart enough to know this they don't want uh once they found out that Tim was having Affairs and he was using Emerson 5:11 Ballard's name saying that he basically okayed it to fool these women that were volunteering 5:17 for our and that's why he was essentially betrayed so badly that here's why the 5:24 church publicly made sure that everybody knew that the church didn't endorse Tim or our because it's that bad 5:30 you know it's not the church at all I was duped by Tim too 

So we have A) Packer characterizing B) Jimmy Rex's quotations of C) anonymous women claiming that D) Tim Ballard said that E) Pres. Ballard "okayed" the affairs.  This is multiple (quadruple?) hearsay: Rex saying what anonymous women said what Tim said what Pres. Ballard said.  Multiple - and ultimately anonymous - hearsay.  Not very good evidence, this.  And really not evidence at all against Pres. Ballard.

5. Packer also references "another source":

Quote

Another source told me how women were 5:37 groomed and spiritually manipulated.  He said "when Ballard got to the point he 5:42 needed to convince and OUR volunteer fake wife to have sex, his "ace 5:47 card" was telling her it was blessed by an LDS Apostle - M Russell Ballard.

This "source" is apparently male ("he said"), so there's no indication this "source" was a percipient witness.  If not, the "source" would likely be a hearsay witness, likely via multiple layers of hearsay.  So we have A) Packer saying what B) an anonymous male "source" said C) some other source (the women, or someone else) said D) Tim Ballard said, E) Pres. Ballard said.  Again, not very good evidence, this, really not evidence at all against Pres. Ballard.

6. Packer points to allegations he made back in 2020 that Pres. Ballard made a donation to or "investment" in OUR "or one of its affiliated entities."  He says he asked the Church (Doug Anderson) for an interview with Pres. Ballard about this, and that the Church, through Anderson, declined to grant Packer an interview (with Pres. Ballard).  He (Packer) reposes a lot of meaning in this, saying that "{t}he facts in those stories {Packer's December 2020 YouTube videos} remain uncontested."  He also claims to have two sources stating that another GA (Robert Gay) also made a donation (or "investment"), and that Elder Gay also declined to do an interview with Packer.

7. Packer, claiming another anonymous source, claims that Pres. Ballard read Tim Ballard's book, "The Covenant," and later met with Tim about it, and that in doing so it (the book) "became Tim and Russell Ballards' first business connection."  So we have Packer saying what an anonymous source said Pres. Ballard said (verbatim, no less).  Also, Packer makes no allegation that Pres. Ballard earned any money from the book, so it's hard to characterize this as evidence of a "business connection" between the two men.  Packer goes on to criticize the book (and, FWIW, I think we Latter-day Saints need to take these criticisms to heart).  

8. Packer's next claim of a "business connection" between the two Ballards was "OUR and a TV series."  Packer seems to his bets here, characterizing the TV series (specifically, "Slave Stealers, LLC," the LLC created to produce it, the one for which Tim apparently listed Pres. Ballard as a "silent" partner) as "something that Russell Ballard and others could invest in."  Packer says, at 12:29, that "Russell Ballard invested on the for-profit side" of a business deal involving the TV series.  Notably, Packer merely asserts this.  He does not even cite to an anonymous source.  He claims that Pres. Ballard, Elder Renlund and Robert Gay "purportedly invested about $600,000.00 in 2013 in Ballard's movie-making venture."  Again, Packer cites nor source or evidence for this.  

9. Packer also claims that in 2016 Tim Ballard "incorporated a company called Liberty 89," which Packer suggests "might have been the vehicle contemplated to own the movie rights," and that "among Liberty 89's directors was Brad Brower, Russell Ballard's son-in-law," and that "it appears Brower represented his father-in-law's interests, keeping Russell Ballard in the shadows."  He also claims that a few months later, on January 11, 2017, "Tim Ballard canceled Liberty 89," and that on January 12, 2017, there was "a secret meeting at LDS Church headquarters" in which Tim Ballard, Sean Reyes, Patrick Slim (a "Mexican billionaire" who Packer claims "helped fund" Sound of Freedom) and Eduardo Verastegui (the director of Sound of Freedom) all "met with the entire Quorum of Twelve Apostles," which group "would have included two {Pres. Ballard and Elder Renlund - see above} who may have originally invested in Tim Ballard's movie-making."  Packer claims that the discussion involved how Sound of Freedom "might help bring moviegoers to 'the Covenant,' that is, join the Mormon Church."  Packer cites, as his source for the information about this secret meeting, Tixoc Munoz, former deputy Chief-of-Staff for Sean Reyes, and who had been involved in an OUR operation.  According to Packer, "Because of his {Munoz's} close association with Reyes, he came to know where a lot of bodies are buried."

Oi.  Quite a bit to unpack here.  The highlights:

• I did some digging on "Liberty 89" in the state records (Utah's Division of Corporations and Commercial Code).  The records indicate that Tim Ballard registered "Liberty 89" as a new DBA ("doing business as") around August 12, 2016.  The registration does not list the entity for which "Liberty 89" would function as a DBA.  So Packer appears to be off quite a bit when he claims that Tim Ballard "incorporated a company {called Liberty 89}."

 

• The state records also show that Tim Ballard did indeed "cancel" the Liberty 89 DBA.  So this was likely not a "business" or "corporation" in any real sense.  It was just a name that Tim Ballard registered with the State of Utah for a few months, then cancelled it.  There is no evidence that it was ever attached to an actual corporation or LLC, or that it had any business operations, places of business, income, taxes, employees, etc.  So it's hard to credit Packer's various claims about this, such as

A) that Liberty 89 was an "incorporated ... company," and that

B) Liberty 89 had "directors" (presumably of the "corporate governance" variety),

C) one of which "was Brad Brower, Russell Ballard's son-in-law," and that

D) Brower "represented his father-in-law's interests" in Liberty 89, and that

E) this kept "Russell Ballard in the shadows" in relation to Liberty 89.

• The only apparent nexus Packer claims to exist between Liberty 89 and the "secret meeting" is the date on which Tim cancelled the DBA (January 11, 2017) and the date on which the supposed "secret meeting" with the Q12 was held (January 12, 2017).  That seems . . . pretty thin, particularly given how much Packer appears to have overstated what Liberty 89 was, what it was doing, who was involved, etc., and how little evidence Packer points to in support of his claims.

10. At about 18:34 or so there is this claim by Packer:

Quote

that brings us to the infamous 18:37 whiteboard meeting in August 2019 where Tim Ballard allies were told about Russell Ballard's business dealings with 18:44 Tim Ballard.  It's a story I broke more than two years ago.  That meeting was held at the home of 18:51 multi-millionaire Paul Hutchinson on many OUR sting operations Hutchinson 18:57 played the role of an American sex tourist pedophile.  He's portrayed in The Sound of Freedom 19:03 by Eduardo Verastegui.  The site of the Whiteboard meeting is 19:08 where Hutchinson held a lot of parties for the rich and famous that included millionaires celebrities and Utah Jazz 19:15 Stars many driving exotic sports cars, a house rumored to have a so-called sex 19:22 room where some partiers could go for a little privacy. 19:27 This is a cell phone photo of the diagram Tim Ballard Drew on the white board at the meeting as he explained his 19:34 big plan, "massive effort," as the Deseret News described it, to monetize various 19:40 for-profit and non-profit entities.  Movers and shakers were there including 19:46 millionaire real estate agent and podcaster Jimmy Rex.

He then shows a clip of Jimmy Rex talking about this "whiteboard meeting."  However, it looks like Jimmy Rex has made the following comment to Packer's YouTube video (in the comments section) :

Quote

 

@mrjimmyrex

 

1 hour ago

I need to correct you, I was not at the white board meeting but 2 of my closest friends were. I got all my information about that meeting from Paul

Huh.

11. Packer, at about 21:27, claims to have "proof" that Pres. Ballard and Tim Ballard "are lying when they deny they had a financial relationship."  This "proof" includes a transcript of comments Tim Ballard made to OUR employees (apparently gleaned from the records collected in the Davis County investigation).  The transcript has Tim stating "Through the whole process and all these miracles, I have reported back to Elder Ballard at least every month, sometimes more.  And on the way to the airport last night, I stopped by his, his house and Katherine and I spent about an hour with him.  And a, he gave me a, a very powerful blessing."  Assuming this is true, it sounds like Pres. Ballard is functioning in his ecclesiastical capacity.  Nothing here about a financial/business relationship between the two.

12. Packer also points to a witness statement made to Davis County investigators, claiming there was a phone call to Pres. Ballard regarding the rescue of "Gardy."  Again, nothing here about a financial/business relationship between the two.

13. Packer also points to a statement from a former OUR operative, Dave Lopez, to an investigator.  In response to "Deception or Ego for Tim?" the investigator's notes states:

Quote

Dave stated both.  Dave said he thinks Tim is fully convinced that he is supposed to be the "Mormon Messiah and lead people back to the church."  Dave said he really believes that and that the Mormon Church is behind it.

Packer also quotes the investigative notes as having Dave state that "Elder Ballard, (M. Russell Ballard) was the Silent Partner with the Slave Stealers and his son (in-law) Brad Brower would be on the business."

So here we have A) an unknown Davis County investigator saying B) what Dave Lopez said about C) what Tim Ballard thinks of himself.  So both mindreading and hearsay.

As for Dave's claim "that the Mormon Church is behind" the notion that Tim Ballard is "supposed to be the 'Mormon Messiah,'" how does he (Dave) know this? 

And how plausible is it that Pres. Ballard would endorse Tim Ballard thinking of himself as "the 'Mormon Messiah'"?  

And how does Dave know about Pres. Ballard being a "silent partner" in Slave Stealers? 

And how is any of Dave's commentary evidence of a financial/business relationship between Tim Ballard and Pres. Ballard?

14. Packer next points to Russell Brunson, apparently a wealthy Latter-day Saint who helped raise funds for The Sound of Freedom, and who has publicly defended Tim Ballard.  He then shows a clip of Brunson talking:

Quote

hey my name is Russell Brunson for those who don't know me and I make this video to talk about Tim Ballard a lot of you guys know 25:35 that he's someone who we have been supporting for the last few years so the most recent article came out uh was 25:42 basically saying the Mormon church was against Tim Ballard and this whole huge thing and it's this big this big Scandal 25:47 um uh it's interesting because um the way that I found out about Tim 25:53 Ballard in the Operation Underground Railroad was actually from Elder Ballard he personally called me and asked me to 25:58 help Tim Ballard in Operation Underground Railroad I have literally sat in the rooms with Elder Ballard and Tim Ballard 26:04 as we discussed these things and these ideas um the accusations that they're being made 26:10 um on the media are not true as somebody who was literally in the room when these conversations were happening um just be 26:16 fully aware he is being attacked from the outside this is not the truth okay it is not the truth again and I just 26:23 come for someone who literally I've been in the rooms with him and Elder Ballard talking about these things okay I've been in the rooms Elder Ballard was who 26:29 introduced me Tim never came to me and they told me some big story {about}   Elder Ballard and I tried to get me in it was the opposite way around okay so fully 26:35 you need to understand this is the way it's actually working this is the actual truth not some rogue employee who got fired because they were bad at their job

So assuming this is correct. Pres. Ballard called Russell Brunson and asked him to get involved with Tim Ballard.  I don't see how this is evidence of Pres. Ballard having a business/financial relationship with Tim.  I suppose it could be construed as Pres. Ballard calling in favors for Tim, but as evidence of him (Pres. Ballard) having a financial interest in it?  Not so much.

Running out of time.  More later.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 5, 2023 by smac97

[Tacenda]

59 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Lynn Packer just published a new YouTube video: Tim and Russell Ballard: Lying about their financial dealings

It's 39 minutes long.  The blurb:

Key bits:

1. Packer claims that both Tim Ballard and Pres. Ballard "are lying" about not having been involved in business ventures together.  EVIDENCE

2. Packer quotes "Suzette Thomas" (I think he means Suzette Rasmussen), the attorney representing the presently-anonymous female claimants alleging misconduct by Tim Ballard.  Part of the letter Rasmussen read to the news media references "spiritual manipulation."  He apparently seems to think that this should be construed as Tim using Pres. Ballard's name to induce women into activities that are inappropriate.  This seems more about Packer's preferred spin/interpretation of the facts than the facts themselves (meanwhile, the "facts" in view are anonymous hearsay, which is pretty weak tea).

3. Packer also quotes a VICE article: "Ballard is alleged to have invoked his own personal connection to the divine and the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to persuade women who worked for and with OUR that testing their sexual chemistry with him was in essence approved by God."  Packer then asks (literally), pointing an arrow at the bolded part above, "Does that mean approved by Russell Ballard?  That's what some female victims have been saying."  This seems to go beyond the evidence so far.

4. Packer also points to an excerpt from the "Jimmy Rex" podcast (this fellow was apparently involved in some OUR operations).  Packer summarizes Jimmy's comments this way: "Rex said he had spoken with with more than one still anonymous alleged Tim Ballard mistresses, who said Tim Ballard told them Russell Ballard condoned the alleged affairs."  He then shows a clip from Rex's comments:

So we have A) Packer characterizing B) Jimmy Rex's quotations of C) anonymous women claiming that D) Tim Ballard said that E) Pres. Ballard "okayed" the affairs.  This is multiple (quadruple?) hearsay: Rex saying what anonymous women said what Tim said what Pres. Ballard said.  Multiple - and ultimately anonymous - hearsay.  Not very good evidence, this.  And really not evidence at all against Pres. Ballard.

5. Packer also references "another source":

This "source" is apparently male ("he said"), so there's no indication this "source" was a percipient witness.  If not, the "source" would likely be a hearsay witness, likely via multiple layers of hearsay.  So we have A) Packer saying what B) an anonymous male "source" said C) some other source (the women, or someone else) said D) Tim Ballard said, E) Pres. Ballard said.  Again, not very good evidence, this, really not evidence at all against Pres. Ballard.

6. Packer points to allegations he made back in 2020 that Pres. Ballard made a donation to or "investment" in OUR "or one of its affiliated entities."  He says he asked the Church (Doug Anderson) for an interview with Pres. Ballard about this, and that the Church, through Anderson, declined to grant Packer an interview (with Pres. Ballard).  He (Packer) reposes a lot of meaning in this, saying that "{t}he facts in those stories {Packer's December 2020 YouTube videos} remain uncontested."  He also claims to have two sources stating that another GA (Robert Gay) also made a donation (or "investment"), and that Elder Gay also declined to do an interview with Packer.

7. Packer, claiming another anonymous source, claims that Pres. Ballard read Tim Ballard's book, "The Covenant," and later met with Tim about it, and that in doing so it (the book) "became Tim and Russell Ballards' first business connection."  So we have Packer saying what an anonymous source said Pres. Ballard said (verbatim, no less).  Also, Packer makes no allegation that Pres. Ballard earned any money from the book, so it's hard to characterize this as evidence of a "business connection" between the two men.  Packer goes on to criticize the book (and, FWIW, I think we Latter-day Saints need to take these criticisms to heart).  

8. Packer next claim of a "business connection" between the two Ballards was "OUR and a TV series."  Packer seems to his bets here, characterizing the TV series (specifically, "Slave Stealers, LLC," the LLC created to produce it, the one for which Tim apparently listed Pres. Ballard as a "silent" partner) as "something that Russell Ballard and others could invest in."  Packer says, at 12:29, that "Russell Ballard invested on the for-profit side" of a business deal involving the TV series.  Notably, Packer merely asserts this.  He does not even cite to an anonymous source.  He claims that Pres. Ballard, Elder Renlund and Robert Gay "purportedly invested about $600,000.00 in 2013 in Ballard's movie-making venture."  Again, Packer cites nor source or evidence for this.  

Running out of time.  More later.

Thanks,

-Smac

I saw it early this morning, wasn't even looking for anything, just came up on youtube. Thought of sharing it here but thought it too controversial where we have 3 apostles involved. I can't believe you're willing to share it, if it sheds not a good light. Unless they didn't do anything wrong really, not sure. Thought of you and wondered what you might think. Thanks for the input!

I saw this during the night, can't sleep well, and watched. It had much more from Glenn Beck than what's been shared on this thread, from Glenn's show. 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Tacenda

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I saw it early this morning, wasn't even looking for anything, just came up on youtube. Thought of sharing it here but thought it too controversial where we have 3 apostles involved. I can't believe you're willing to share it, if it sheds not a good light.

I'm willing to evaluate evidence against the Church, including when it "sheds not a good light."

Here, however, I'm really not impressed with Packer's video.  It's full of hostile speculation, Packer's personal opinions and suspicions dressed up as "facts," anonymous sources, multiple "hearsay within hearsay" sources, etc.

If Pres. Ballard has done something wrong, I want to know that.  So far, however, Packer just does not seem to be raking much muck on that.   I get that he wants to paint Pres. Ballard in a terrible way, in the worst possible light, and he does.  Lots of bombastic claims.  But in terms of the evidence, I am attempting to be relatively impartial about it, and so far the evidence against Pres. Ballard is pretty poor.

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Unless they didn't do anything wrong really, not sure. Thought of you and wondered what you might think. Thanks for the input!

I've previously commented on stories where the Church and/or its leaders have been placed in a bad light.  McKenna Denson.  Paul Adams.  The SEC/EPA story.  I am open to the possibility that members of the Church, including prominent and highly-ranked leaders of it, can make mistakes, including serious moral lapses.   At the same time, I remain cognizant of the hostility against the Church that often results in the Church being treated unfairly, cast in the worst possible light, etc.  I also have some pretty serious questions/concerns about the probative weight of the evidence cited in these controversies, sometimes (often) improperly so.

Nobody here would believe me if I claimed to be impartial as to the Church generally, and I don't think I've ever attempted such a claim anyway.  However, I do try to utilize at least an approximation of a fair and impartial evaluation of adverse evidence against the conduct of the Church (both institutionally and as to individuals within it, particularly its leaders).  I try to take off the "rose-colored glasses," as it were, and evaluate the claims and the evidences from that perspective.

There is nothing new in this, really.  I've been making this effort for many years.  As a result, I have found that, in the main, the Church and its leaders vindicate my presumptions and benefits of the doubt in their favor.  And where that doesn't happen, the failings are usually nowhere near being indicative of some deeply-rooted malevolence that so many of our critics want to imply (or outright declare).  I will re-state what I said back on 9/18:

Quote

Option (A) - Pres. Ballard and the Church have pivoted to a politically activist posture, and have initiated that pivot by derailing the political aspirations of one of the members of the Church.

Option (B) - Tim Ballard did actually "betray" his friendship with Pres. Ballard "through the unauthorized use of President Ballard’s name for Tim Ballard’s personal advantage and activity regarded as morally unacceptable."

Option (C) - Pres. Ballard has been duped, that is, Tim Ballard did not make "unauthorized use of President Ballard’s name for Tim Ballard’s personal advantage and activity," or that he engaged in "activity regarded as morally unacceptable," but that Pres. Ballard has somehow been persuaded through misinformation or unsubstantiated claims.  Alternative (per Calm), the Church believed the allegations and was so nervous about being associated with TB, they hurriedly issued a statement without consideration for the fallout or the target nor took as careful of an approach as they should have.

I think (A) is to unserious, so I reject it.  (B) and (C) are still on the table.
...

If Option (C) materializes, then that will be a disappointment, but far from a fatal one (for me).  Such errors do not retroactively negate the reality of the First Vision, the Gold Plates, the restoration of the Priesthood, Joseph's theophanies and revelations, and so on.  

I think I'm in the Church, come what may.  I believe any member of the Church can be led astray, including leaders (witness the many who apostatized in the early days of the Church).  I also reject the notion of inerrancy (though I note that it is quite possible for a church leader to make a mistake, or even many mistakes, and yet not be "astray").  However, I subscribe to the position that the Church and its leaders, collectively, will not be led astray.  I believe in the prophecy found in Daniel 2 and in how it has been interpreted.  I agree with Wilford Woodruff that "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God."  I think that's right.

I believe in The Book of Mormon, in its testimony of Jesus Christ, and of the implications that are associated with the prophetic mantle involved in its production, preservation, and transmission to us.  I believe the sentiment expressed here (attributed to Joseph Smith): "‘I will give you a key that will never rust, —if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray."  The Church is not perfect.  But it is, in my view, overwhelmingly good.  I love it a lot.  

I am willing, upon the discovery of competent and probative and credible evidence, to re-visit my out-of-hand rejection of Option (A) above (which posits nefariousness by Pres. Ballard).  But so far I haven't seen an evidentiary basis to do so, despite Lynn Packer's strenuous efforts in that regard.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 5, 2023 by smac97

[Saint Bonaventure]

It's easy to say now, but Tim Ballard has been flying red flags for a long time. The grandiosity, the evidence of risk-taking behaviors, there's a lot there.

The Church leader President Russell Ballard--not so much. He seems like someone who keeps his cards close to his vest, and this is common for people with authority and public responsibility. While he might have made a bad decision or two with regard to Tim Ballard, I am very skeptical that there is any kind of culpability for President Russell Ballard.

[The Nehor]

Oh cool, so he was moving towards it being a sex cult? How surprising.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Not very good evidence, this.  And really not evidence at all against Pres. Ballard.

Given what I have heard, I am leaning towards he is accurate that Tim Ballard said Pres Ballard gave permission for the immorality because it was needed to save children or something to that effect.

My guess is that is why we got an unusually emotional response from the Church using the word “betrayed”.  The use of a leader’s name saying they are backing a financial scheme is a dime a dozen and we have responses from the Church in some of these cases iirc and they are nothing like this latest statement. 
 

If the allegations against Tim Ballard are true, then he is a liar.  If Lynn Packer is assuming because Tim Ballard claimed Elder Ballard backed him in various ways that Elder Ballard condone or was involved in what Tim Ballard was doing, he is letting his bias cause him to ignore the more likely scenario that Tim Ballard lied because that is what Tim Ballard does.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Calm

[smac97]

32 minutes ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

It's easy to say now, but Tim Ballard has been flying red flags for a long time. The grandiosity, the evidence of risk-taking behaviors, there's a lot there.

Tim Ballard had never even been on my radar until that Vice article came out a few weeks ago, and even then the thing that piqued my interest was the possible involvement of Pres. Ballard and the Church's surprising denunciation of Tim in its statement to Vice.  That was all very weird, but as time goes on the allegations against Tim keep growing.  We'll see what the evidence eventually bears out.

32 minutes ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

The Church leader President Russell Ballard--not so much. He seems like someone who keeps his cards close to his vest, and this is common for people with authority and public responsibility. While he might have made a bad decision or two with regard to Tim Ballard, I am very skeptical that there is any kind of culpability for President Russell Ballard.

Yes, this is my read as well.  Lynn Packer is a very motivated fellow, and he's been looking to indict Pres. Ballard's character for some years now.  That he has still not managed to locate probative evidence, over a term of years and with access to a variety of materials and sources/witnesses, suggests to me that he is barking up the wrong tree.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[MustardSeed]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

the allegations against Tim Ballard are true, then he is a liar.  

There’s also the very real possibility that tim convinced himself that he was given a greenlight, because he was hearing what he wanted to hear. So still a liar, but lying to himself.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

As for Dave's claim "that the Mormon Church is behind" the notion that Tim Ballard is "supposed to be the 'Mormon Messiah,'" how does he (Dave) know this? 

Couldn’t this be read as Tim Ballard believed the Church was supporting it even though it likely wasn’t and not that the Church was why Tim Ballard believed it, ie some church leader told him he was the Mormon Messiah.

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Quote

Not very good evidence, this.  And really not evidence at all against Pres. Ballard.

Given what I have heard, I am leaning towards he is accurate that Tim Ballard said Pres Ballard gave permission for the immorality because it was needed to save children or something to that effect.

If so, that would likely fit within the parameters of what was described in the Church's statement as "morally unacceptable" behavior.  And compounded as such because not only would he have engaged in serious moral misconduct, he did so using manipulative and wholly problematic means, including name-checking an apostle as condoning the misconduct.

"If so" being the key phrase in the above statement.  I still want to get more evidence than the various mostly-anonymous-and-multiple-hearsay stuff that's being passed around.

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

My guess is that is why we got an unusually emotional response from the Church using the word “betrayed”.  The use of a leader’s name saying they are backing a financial scheme is a dime a dozen and we have responses from the Church in some of these cases iirc and they are nothing like this latest statement. 

If the allegations against Tim Ballard are true, then he is a liar.  If Lynn Packer is assuming because Tim Ballard claimed Elder Ballard backed him in various ways that Elder Ballard condone or was involved in what Tim Ballard was doing, he is letting his bias cause him to ignore the more likely scenario that Tim Ballard lied because that is what Tim Ballard does.

I'm becoming less impressed with Lynn Packer.  He's let his animosity against the Church cloud his judgment and perspective too much.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

There’s also the very real possibility that tim convinced himself that he was given a greenlight, because he was hearing what he wanted to hear. So still a liar, but lying to himself.

I was including that mentally, if not explicitly.

[Calm]

Just now, smac97 said:

I still want to get more evidence than the various mostly-anonymous-and-multiple-hearsay stuff that's being passed around.

I believe more evidence is needed too.

[smac97]

Just now, Calm said:

Couldn’t this be read as Tim Ballard believed the Church was supporting it even though it likely wasn’t and not that the Church was why Tim Ballard believed it, ie some church leader told him he was the Mormon Messiah.

I think "Mormon Messiah" is a contrivance of Dave Lopez's making.  That phrase has no place at all in Latter-day Saint discourse or vocabulary.  The only "Messiah" of whom we speak is Jesus Christ.  I even have a hard time believing that this phrase could have come from Tim Ballard.  When Latter-day Saints go kooky, they tend to lay claim to the "One Mighty and Strong" thing. 

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think "Mormon Messiah" is a contrivance of Dave Lopez's making.  That phrase has no place at all in Latter-day Saint discourse or vocabulary.  The only "Messiah" of whom we speak is Jesus Christ.  I even have a hard time believing that this phrase could have come from Tim Ballard.  When Latter-day Saints go kooky, they tend to lay claim to the "One Mighty and Strong" thing. 

Thanks,

-Smac

My same reaction.  It is too alliterative for one thing, lol. Doesn’t feel real.

[smac97]

From the Tribune: Some Latter-day Saints struggle over whom to support: Tim Ballard or their church leaders

Quote

While they certainly back his anti-trafficking cause, they worry about the recent allegations and wonder about how to balance their beliefs against their faith’s strong statement.

I'm not sure what this means, unless "their beliefs" refer to their support of Tim Ballard's "anti-trafficking cause."  But that wouldn't seem to make sense, either, since there is no tension between supporting that cause and continuing activity/observance in the Church.

Quote

The YouTube video opens on a smiling mother-daughter duo, a cozy faux farmhouse kitchen serving as the backdrop. The two look as though they’re about to launch into a discussion of how to foster healthy relationships between parents and children, or maybe a walk-through on mastering the art of Texas sheet cake.

But the parenting advice and baking tips will have to wait. The mother, who introduces herself as Kathleen, and her daughter, called Jane, are on a mission of no less importance than “cleansing” The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of leadership they accuse of being “not just corrupt but evil — and we mean evil.”

Kathleen and Jane, who do not share their last names and did not respond to a request for comment, explain they have suspected for some time that there was rot in Salt Lake City. But it wasn’t until a senior apostle publicly disavowed Tim Ballard, founder of the anti-trafficking organization Operation Underground Railroad, that they decided it was time to act. In two videos that together have grossed almost 20,000 views, the women surmise that because the church has not been vocal about sex trafficking, they must be guilty of it.

"{T}he women surmise that because the church has not been vocal about sex trafficking, they must be guilty of it."

I wonder if the Trib is giving putting a spotlight on this crackpot nonsense not because it has any widespread acceptance by Latter-day Saints, but because its sensationalized and inflammatory.

Quote

These women are among many Latter-day Saint supporters of Ballard who have found their loyalties in conflict in the aftermath of the faith’s rare and pointed rebuke. This wrestle, playing across social media, reveals a community grappling with a crisis of faith, some in Ballard and some in church leaders.

I think this may end up being a healthy and appropriate opportunity for introspection amongst the Saints as to "loyalties."

To wit: I don't think the Latter-day Saints should be professing "faith ... in {Tim} Ballard," or anyone else, for that matter.  We have faith in God, we sustain His servants.

Quote

Conservative Latter-day Saint podcaster and YouTube personality Greg Matsen, the founder of Cwic Media, addresses this tension head-on in a sober video that racked up nearly 43,000 views in 12 days.

“Tim,” Matsen tells viewers emphatically, “is not the church. I get so many comments from people, where it’s very obvious that almost to some degree their testimonies are tied to the church’s statement and how things are going with Tim.”

This is somewhat troubling.  I can't help but think that the exhortation against putting too much trust in any person other than Jesus Christ.  I commented on this previously here:

Quote

I expect much of our leaders, but I haven't tied my testimony to any person except the Savior.  At least, I hope I haven't.

"O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm."  (2 Nephi 4:34).

I construe this verse in a eschatalogical sense.

See also these remarks by our Bluebell:

Quote

Quote

Sometimes I wonder how anyone could believe in God and the community of faith at all, when I think of church history, religious wars and even the uncharitable ways we can respond to each other!

...

I know that I've been heartbroken the last few years to see the sinful acts and brokenness of some of my favourite authors - Brennan Manning, Jean Vanier, Ravi Zacharias.  I struggle with being tempted to just discount everything they've stood for and written (mostly depending on the nature of their "sin" and whether or not they've hurt vulnerable people other than themselves) - but then I remember that God really does work through very flawed people including myself and I look for His wisdom, discernment and compassion.

Bottom line here ... for me, it's no wonder that people turn their backs on God if and when we see and judge Him through people - through those who claim to follow Him and represent Him.

Beautiful words.  They reminded me of a few verses in our book of scripture which I think can apply to all of us.  And I do believe that we are asked to deal with the weaknesses of each other, as well as our own weaknesses, so that we never forget the bolded portion.

Doctrine and Covenants Section 1:

The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—

But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;

That faith also might increase in the earth;

That mine everlasting covenant might be established;

That the fulness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple unto the ends of the world, and before kings and rulers.

Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

I think we can admire Tim Ballard for the good things he did, let the proper authorities hold him accountable for any errors/wrongdoings he may have done, continue to support the generalized effort to work against human trafficking, and continue in faith and discipleship in regards to the Church of Jesus Christ.

Back to the Trib article:

Quote

He instead tells listeners that “there is a corporate side to the church, so to speak, that should be standing outside of your testimony, whether it’s getting vaxes or it’s the border, or it’s how things are dealt with with the LGBT community.” Such matters, he says, “have to be handled with a corporate side, a policy side, and Tim’s story is one of the examples of this.”

I think this kind of makes sense.  In almost every form of governance there is a "how the sausage is made" element.  A bishop in the Church ought to generally be warm, amiable, kind, compassionate, and so on.  There are times, however, when him doing his job can engender hard feelings, even anger.  That's part of the gig.  The same, I think, ought to be said for governance of the Church at its higher levels.  The Brethren are, I think, overall doing a very good job in very trying circumstances.  They will never be able to manage the affairs of the Church to the satisfaction of all of its members (or, for that matter, to the satisfaction of those not in the Church), and sometimes hard decisions must be made, which can result in hard feelings.  

Quote

Amy Stratton, a Salt Lake City-based event planner and active Latter-day Saint, says she never considered Ballard a hero, though she knows plenty of people did and, in many cases, still do. For her, the focus was always the cause, that of fighting sex trafficking and “the consumption of pornography and the consumption of children as slaves” more broadly, that she cared — and continues to care — most about.

Still, the church’s statement worries her, as do the allegations that have since surfaced accusing Ballard of sexual misconduct. He has denied those allegations.

“I feel in my heart that…this is a similar situation to what happened to Joseph Smith,” she explains, clarifying that while she doesn’t consider Ballard a prophet like her faith’s founder, she nevertheless sees a parallel in their stories: Both took a stance against evil and, in doing so, provoked the devil.

“Whether it’s [Ballard’s] own character and Satan working on him,” she says, alluding to the possibility that the allegations of sexual misconduct are true, “or whether it’s external forces and defamation, it doesn’t matter.”

Either way, she believes Lucifer is working overtime to prevent people from learning about and doing anything about “the damage of pornography and trafficking.”

She remains steadfast in her faith but acknowledges there have been times she has disagreed with church leaders, in particular when President Russell Nelson encouraged members to be vaccinated against COVID-19.

“I put it on a shelf,” she says of her struggle with that announcement. “That’s kind of what I’ve done with this situation. I’m just putting it on a shelf because my testimony is in Jesus Christ and the church of Jesus Christ.”

One heavy item she’s recently been able to take off that shelf has to do with the wild allegation that top Latter-day Saint leaders are involved in Satanic ritual abuse, an unsupported rumor that she says had been going around her circles. The idea had been gnawing at Stratton for some time when she found herself at a social event with the faith’s Young Men general president, Steven Lund.

“I had the opportunity to ask Elder Lund,” she says, “and he just bore his testimony to me and confirmed to me that there’s nothing of the sort happening. I felt the spirit witness to me he was telling the truth, and that put it to rest for me.”

This is, I suppose, interesting stuff.  But I'm not sure why the religious sentiments of this particular individual are "newsworthy."  It seems sort of odd to read this stuff in a secular newspaper.  

Quote

Political scientists David Campbell and Quin Monson have been studying Latter-day Saints’ views on current events for years. What their studies have shown is that for most members, their religious identity far outweighs their political identity.

This has been my sense and personal perspective as well.  My political "identity" and preferences are definitely "downstream" from my religious convictions.  My stance on social issues is therefore informed by those convictions, and then deployed by myself as I see fit.  I do not feel beholden to any particular political party or platform.  I go with what hews most closely to my preconceived ideas about live, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Quote

Whether that is starting to change, only time will tell, but both caution that any individual who opts for the side of Tim Ballard over the church is almost certainly in the minority.

However, Campbell notes, the impact of social media and its ability to lure people to ideas by creating a sense of community around them make it a “very powerful and frankly an alternative source of information and truth compared to the church.”

As for Matsen’s theory regarding the corporate versus the spiritual side of the church, Campbell, a professor at the University of Notre Dame, points out that is not a form of division that the church itself teaches.

Instead, it represents, as Monson puts it, “a perfect example of somebody compartmentalizing things in a way to square the circle and rationalize their way out of the very clear conflict that they’re faced with.”

I don't know what "square the circle" means here.  I think the "very clear conflict" can and ought to be resolved by prioritizing influences in our lives.  I don't think Tim Ballard is angling to be the next Denver Snuffer, looking for acolytes and setting himself up as a voice of authority that is alternative and superior to the Church and its leaders.  If Tim has engaged in misconduct, then he needs to address that, via both secular and "church" means, then recover and move on in life.

Quote

Both agree that Stratton’s fear of Satanic ritual abuse represents the influence of QAnon conspiracy theories on church members, though Monson stresses the fact that she held space for its possibility even for a short time means she likely belongs to a “very small group” when it comes to Latter-day Saints generally.

Have any "QAnon" folks been formulating/propagating rumors regarding the leaders of the Church?  I thought the QAnon stuff is a far-right whackdoodle "moral panic" rumor about "a cabal of Satanic, cannibalistic child molesters are operating a global child sex trafficking ring which conspired against Donald Trump" and "Pizzagate."  

Sis. Stratton referenced a "wild allegation that top Latter-day Saint leaders are involved in Satanic ritual abuse, an unsupported rumor that she says had been going around her circles."  I think some Latter-day Saints were already primed/predisposed toward "conspiracy theories," or "secret combinations" in Latter-day Saint parlance.  That's not to say that such things categorically don't exist, but rather that a big part of the mystique surrounding the idea of shadowy cabals/conspiracies is that the absence of evidence is seen as evidence of the conspiracy.  It's a dangerous line of thinking because it can be taken to one unreasonable extreme (QAnon) or another.

Quote

For his part, Monson, a professor at church-owned Brigham Young University, says he was “kind of astonished” by videos like that of Kathleen and Jane.

“They’re not talking about church leadership in ways that I would expect, given the way they dress and behave otherwise,” he says. “So it was surprising in that context.”

As time has gone by, however, his thinking has shifted.

“I don’t think I should have been as surprised as I was because the same kind of conflict has been present on the political left for much longer,” Monson says. “The thing that astonished me was that I was not used to seeing it on the right. It’s there. It has been there. I should have seen it more in the past.”

Political extremism amongst Latter-day Saints on the political "right" has actually been going on for quite a while.  Ammon Bundy.  Julie Rowe.  "Preparing a People."  

Thanks,

-Smac

[ksfisher]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I wonder if the Trib is giving putting a spotlight on this crackpot nonsense not because it has any widespread acceptance by Latter-day Saints, but because its sensationalized and inflammatory.

The Tribune is in the business of selling papers (or digital advertising these days).  Of course they're going to run stories that cast the church, it's leaders, and it's members in a disparaging light.

 

14 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think this may end up being a healthy and appropriate opportunity for introspection amongst the Saints as to "loyalties."

Personally, I would never have heard of Tim Ballard if it wasn't for the discussion on this board.  I have no real interest in LDS connected movies or other similar media.

I haven't heard anyone at church talking about this.  It's nothing that's on my families radar.