My New Ex/Former Pentacostal/Restoration Minister Friend Joins LDS Church/Faith

[Anakin7]

 A good read. Read his conversion story and Defense of the LDS Church/Faith and other articles.  http://howthechurchistrue.com 

 Enjoy. 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Anakin7

[Sara H]

8 minutes ago, Anakin7 said:

 A good read. Read his conversion story and Defense of the LDS Church/Faith and other articles.  http://howthechurchistrue.com 

 Enjoy. 

 

This is a fantastic illustration of what I have been pointing out all along about how Latter-day Saints see Christians as individuals who are adhering to a corrupted faith. It makes no sense to me why LDS people are so adamant on being considered Christians but at the same time viewing every other Christian group as having been corrupt over the course of the last two thousand years. What am I failing to grasp in my attempts to comprehend why being labeled a Christian is now of such paramount significance to LDS members?

This individual has gone to the trouble of creating a webpage to demonstrate why our gospel is accurate and Christianity is a corrupt religion. Isn't that a component of what we work hard to instill in our children?

[LoudmouthMormon]

28 minutes ago, Sara H said:

It makes no sense to me why LDS people are so adamant on being considered Christians but at the same time viewing every other Christian group as having been corrupt over the course of the last two thousand years. What am I failing to grasp in my attempts to comprehend why being labeled a Christian is now of such paramount significance to LDS members?

1. The almost universally recognized definition of Christian is "a disciple of Jesus Christ".
2. I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ.
3. Therefore, I lay claim to the title of Christian.

I'm not "viewing every other Christian group as having been corrupt over the course of the last 2000 years".  For one thing, an awful lot of Christianity follows sects that haven't been in existence nearly that long.

 

For another thing, I'm not really out to be critical or gripe about how other faiths do it wrong.  I'm more like a guy with what I think is the best chocolate chip cookie recipe.  You're welcome to try a cookie, and I'm also willing to share the recipe.  But that doesn't mean your cookies suck.

I'm guessing dude's website talks about the rest of Christianity, because he used to be one of "them", and now he's one of "us", so he feels the need to explain things.  I've noticed humans do this when they start out as one thing and evolve and change into something else.  I'm of a certain political persuasion, having done a complete 180 in my '20's from my prior political orientation.  I can talk for hours about why my current one is better, and why my old one is problematic.  

Edited September 3, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Sara H said:

Latter-day Saints see Christians as individuals who are adhering to a corrupted faith.

Your emphasis is on corruption while the website seems to me to emphasize that other Christian faiths have some truth, just not all.  Almost like the half full, half empty cliche, only your way (not the Church’s way, not even from the beginning) of saying things is all empty.

Quote

Our purpose is to convince you that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the most true of all churches in the world today. Many churches have some truth — but the Restored Christian faith of the Latter-day Saints is the fullness of the Gospel. 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Calm

[Sara H]

22 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I'm more like a guy with what I think is the best chocolate chip cookie recipe.  You're welcome to try a cookie, and I'm also willing to share the recipe.  But that doesn't mean your cookies suck

Your friend's website provides an explanation of how the Restored Gospel has come to this earth to return corrupt Christianity to its original, whole form. He claims that his recently developed cookie recipe is the only one on the planet that does it right. 

[Sara H]

From the website. 

 

[Tacenda]

27 minutes ago, Sara H said:

Your friend's website provides an explanation of how the Restored Gospel has come to this earth to return corrupt Christianity to its original, whole form. He claims that his recently developed cookie recipe is the only one on the planet that does it right. 

I agree on this, it's awful to say their form of Christianity is corrupt. 

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Anakin7 said:

 A good read. Read his conversion story and Defense of the LDS Church/Faith and other articles.  http://howthechurchistrue.com 

 Enjoy. 

 

It definitely has an anti-Catholic bias. I suppose that’s not surprising since he was previously a Protestant. However, he does repeat some old inaccuracies about Catholic history.

[Calm]

my bad for not taking a closer look…deleted

Edited September 3, 2023 by Calm

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Sara H said:

It makes no sense to me why LDS people are so adamant on being considered Christians

It makes perfect sense because we use the Book of Mormon definition of what it means to be Christian, and not some twisted definition of "Christian":  "And those who did belong to the church were faithful; yea, all those who were true believers in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come." (Alma 46:15)

1 hour ago, Sara H said:

This individual has gone to the trouble of creating a webpage to demonstrate why our gospel is accurate and Christianity is a corrupt religion.

This is an inaccurate portrayal of the content of that website and what it means to be "Christian".  The website says:  "The mission of this website is to teach the Restored Christian faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in a way that is simple and easy to understand — for average Christians and for people in general."  See:   https://howthechurchistrue.com/about/

So are we actually "Christians" (like the Book of Mormon says) and part of the "Restored Christian faith", or is "Christianity" something else altogether?  You can't have it both ways.  Do you believe the Book of Mormon definition of what it means to be a "Christian", or not?

[LoudmouthMormon]

51 minutes ago, Sara H said:

Your friend's website provides an explanation of how the Restored Gospel has come to this earth to return corrupt Christianity to its original, whole form. He claims that his recently developed cookie recipe is the only one on the planet that does it right. 

okay. 

I've never met this person or encountered this website before today.  I took a brief look, and assumed your account of the website was correct.    Do you care to interact with the answers I gave to your questions, or maybe the guessing I did about his motives?  

Edited September 3, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[Sara H]

38 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

It makes perfect sense because we use the Book of Mormon definition of what it means to be Christian, and not some twisted definition of "Christian":  "And those who did belong to the church were faithful; yea, all those who were true believers in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come." (Alma 46:15)

This is an inaccurate portrayal of the content of that website and what it means to be "Christian".  The website says:  "The mission of this website is to teach the Restored Christian faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in a way that is simple and easy to understand — for average Christians and for people in general."  See:   https://howthechurchistrue.com/about/

So are we actually "Christians" (like the Book of Mormon says) and part of the "Restored Christian faith", or is "Christianity" something else altogether?  You can't have it both ways.  Do you believe the Book of Mormon definition of what it means to be a "Christian", or not?

You see, even you are redefining what Christianity is by utilizing Alma to define what "true Christianity" is. I don't think you know that the majority of Christians would consider your explanation of Christianity to be tantamount to blasphemy. You are trying to redefine what Christianity is to 2 billion Christians by suggesting that Christianity truly began around 100 years before Christ was born. Every Christian I know would tell you that Christianity began sometime about 50 AD. However, you are trying to redefine what Christianity is by saying that Christianity began around 100 years before Christ was born. You're basically supporting my point that we shouldn't try to be recognized as Christians like the Catholics or the Protestants since we believe Christianity began on the American continent, but the rest of Christianity believes it began in the middle east. This is another reason why we shouldn't seek to be regarded as Christians like the Catholics or the Protestants. Thanks for explaining to our Christian readers that we think Christianity started before Christ was born. 

[jpv]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

It definitely has an anti-Catholic bias. I suppose that’s not surprising since he was previously a Protestant. However, he does repeat some old inaccuracies about Catholic history.

That's too bad.

I think we're closer to Catholics/Orthodoxy than Protestantism, but that's probably a minority opinion. 

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Sara H said:

You see, even you are redefining what Christianity is by utilizing Alma to define what "true Christianity" is. I don't think you know that the majority of Christians would consider your explanation of Christianity to be tantamount to blasphemy. You are trying to redefine what Christianity is to 2 billion Christians by suggesting that Christianity truly began around 100 years before Christ was born. Every Christian I know would tell you that Christianity began sometime about 50 AD. However, you are trying to redefine what Christianity is by saying that Christianity began around 100 years before Christ was born. You're basically supporting my point that we shouldn't try to be recognized as Christians like the Catholics or the Protestants since we believe Christianity began on the American continent, but the rest of Christianity believes it began in the middle east. This is another reason why we shouldn't seek to be regarded as Christians like the Catholics or the Protestants. Thanks for explaining to our Christian readers that we think Christianity started before Christ was born. 

A few observations:

1. You ignored the actual definition of Christian given in the Book of Mormon and are instead focusing on when it was given.
2. You assume that most Christians would disagree, not with the actual definition of what it means to be a Christian as stated in the Book of Mormon (that you ignored), but with the time at which it was written.  You might be surprised that given the actual definition of what it means to be a Christian, other Christians might actually agree that the Old Testament saints could be considered to be "Christians".   Consider this question asked on the Bethel Bible Chapel website:  "Were the people of the Old Testament 'Christians'?"  The website breaks down the answer as follows:
   • We Are All Saved by One Promise
   • Righteousness Has Always Been by Faith:   "Abraham is the prime example of this. The OT and NT both agree that Abraham, the father of the nation of Israel, was justified by faith (Gen 15:6, Rom. 4:1-5). The Protestant Reformation was built on reclaiming the identity of Christians as being those who are justified by faith (Rom. 1:17, Gal 3:11, Heb 10:38). The gift of salvation has always been given to those who have faith in God."
   • We Are All Part of One Plan of Redemption
   • The Church is Built on One Foundation
   • Conclusion:   "The witness of scripture reveals that God’s promise of salvation by faith was his plan for all time. It began with Adam and Eve, was testified to by Moses and the Prophets, and fulfilled in Jesus and continues to this very day. While their vision was not as clear as ours, the God of the Old Testament was and is. So is His plan and purpose of redemption through the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ."
3. The Ligonier Ministries web site also answers this question:  How were people saved in the Old Testament?  It has this to say on the topic:  "In the Old Testament, they were saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, looking ahead to the coming of Christ. Jesus said in John 8:56, “Abraham saw My day, and he was glad.” We are saved by looking back to the first coming of Christ, who died on the cross bearing our sins. In the Old Testament, they simply looked ahead to the coming of Christ. We all meet at the foot of the cross. It is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone that anyone is saved. We must be crystal clear about this."

So now that we got that out of the way, I'm going to restate my question:  Are we actually "Christians" (like the Book of Mormon says) and part of the "Restored Christian faith", or is "Christianity" something else altogether?  You can't have it both ways.  Do you believe the Book of Mormon definition of what it means to be a "Christian", or not?

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I agree on this, it's awful to say their form of Christianity is corrupt. 

More like this kind of corrupt rather than dishonest corruption.

.
change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations.
"Epicurus's teachings have since been much corrupted"

A file becomes corrupted when a piece or pieces of the data that form it are lost. As a result, when a user tries to open such a file, the storage media is unable to reconstruct it and reports an error. At other times, the data required to reconstruct the file is still present, but the media is unable to locate it.

[Sara H]

22 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

A few observations:

1. You ignored the actual definition of Christian given in the Book of Mormon and are instead focusing on when it was given.
2. You assume that most Christians would disagree, not with the actual definition of what it means to be a Christian as stated in the Book of Mormon (that you ignored), but with the time at which it was written.  You might be surprised that given the actual definition of what it means to be a Christian, other Christians might actually agree that the Old Testament saints could be considered to be "Christians".   Consider this question asked on the Bethel Bible Chapel website:  "Were the people of the Old Testament 'Christians'?"  The website breaks down the answer as follows:
   • We Are All Saved by One Promise
   • Righteousness Has Always Been by Faith:   "Abraham is the prime example of this. The OT and NT both agree that Abraham, the father of the nation of Israel, was justified by faith (Gen 15:6, Rom. 4:1-5). The Protestant Reformation was built on reclaiming the identity of Christians as being those who are justified by faith (Rom. 1:17, Gal 3:11, Heb 10:38). The gift of salvation has always been given to those who have faith in God."
   • We Are All Part of One Plan of Redemption
   • The Church is Built on One Foundation
   • Conclusion:   "The witness of scripture reveals that God’s promise of salvation by faith was his plan for all time. It began with Adam and Eve, was testified to by Moses and the Prophets, and fulfilled in Jesus and continues to this very day. While their vision was not as clear as ours, the God of the Old Testament was and is. So is His plan and purpose of redemption through the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ."
3. The Ligonier Ministries web site also answers this question:  How were people saved in the Old Testament?  It has this to say on the topic:  "In the Old Testament, they were saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, looking ahead to the coming of Christ. Jesus said in John 8:56, “Abraham saw My day, and he was glad.” We are saved by looking back to the first coming of Christ, who died on the cross bearing our sins. In the Old Testament, they simply looked ahead to the coming of Christ. We all meet at the foot of the cross. It is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone that anyone is saved. We must be crystal clear about this."

So now that we got that out of the way, I'm going to restate my question:  Are we actually "Christians" (like the Book of Mormon says) and part of the "Restored Christian faith", or is "Christianity" something else altogether?  You can't have it both ways.  Do you believe the Book of Mormon definition of what it means to be a "Christian", or not?

Do you know that by writing such a lengthy piece, you have just informed the two billion Christians who believe that Christianity began sometime around the year 50 BC that they are once again incorrect and that we are right? No wonder so many Christians dont view LDS as Christians. Not only that, but you have now stated that the Jews from the Old Testament were apparently Christians, and by citing Alma as an example for Christianity on the American continent, you have practically indicated that native Americans were also Christians. 

I beg you to assure me that you are not looking for evidence to prove that Muslims are also Christians in order to explain your position.

 

[InCognitus]

23 minutes ago, Sara H said:

Do you know that by writing such a lengthy piece, you have just informed the two billion Christians who believe that Christianity began sometime around the year 50 BC that they are once again incorrect and that we are right?

Wow, then I guess the Bethel Bible Chapel and Ligonier Ministry websites are wrong too.  You should probably inform them that they are incorrect and shame them for thinking Christianity might extend back to Old Testament times.

23 minutes ago, Sara H said:

No wonder so many Christians dont view LDS as Christians.

That generally comes from self made non-biblical lists of what they think it means to be a Christian, in order to exclude others (i.e. must believe in the Trinity, must believe in sola scriptura and inerrancy of scripture, believe in a closed canon of scripture, etc.).

23 minutes ago, Sara H said:

Not only that, but you have now stated that the Jews from the Old Testament were apparently Christians, and by citing Alma as an example for Christianity on the American continent, you have practically indicated that native Americans were also Christians. 

Only those who believed in Christ that should come.

And yet again, you ignore my question, so I ask it again:  Are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually "Christians" (like the Book of Mormon says) and part of the "Restored Christian faith", or is "Christianity" something else altogether?  You continue to try to have it both ways.  Do you believe the Book of Mormon definition of what it means to be a "Christian", or not?

Edited September 3, 2023 by InCognitus

[Sara H]

12 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Wow, then I guess the Bethel Bible Chapel and Ligonier Ministry websites are wrong too.  You should probably inform them that they are incorrect and shame them for thinking Christianity might extend back to Old Testament times.

That generally comes from self made non-biblical lists of what they think it means to be a Christian, in order to exclude others (i.e. must believe in the Trinity, must believe in the divinity of Christ, must believe in sola scriptura and inerrant scripture, etc.).

Only those who believed in Christ that should come.

And yet again, you ignore my question, so I ask it again:  Are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually "Christians" (like the Book of Mormon says) and part of the "Restored Christian faith", or is "Christianity" something else altogether?  You continue to try to have it both ways.  Do you believe the Book of Mormon definition of what it means to be a "Christian", or not?

We don't believe we're PART of the Restored Christian religion. We do not believe that we are a PART of anything; rather, we hold the belief that we are the ONLY members of the Restored Christian religion, and that no other denomination is a valid expression of genuine Christianity. Tell me about any other religious denominations that are associated with the Restored gospel. Is it the Baptist denomination? Our missionaries do not make an effort to convert Baptists, do they? Yes, they do, because we don't believe they're part of the Restored Christian faith. What about Catholics; do they subscribe to the doctrines of the Restored Christian faith? Why don't we make an effort to bring them into our faith and baptize them? Oh yes we do don't we! I get that it makes you feel better to state that we are PART the Restored Christian religion because that sounds more inclusive, but please understand that this is not what the gospel teaches. If calling Jews Christians helps you feel better, then by all means feel free to continue doing so. If calling the native Americans Christians before the Christians were actually Christians makes you feel better, then by all means, feel free to do that. However, you might not want to do that when you're face to face with them, so it's better to stick to calling them Christians from behind the computer. 

[InCognitus]

10 minutes ago, Sara H said:

We don't believe we're PART of the Restored Christian religion. We do not believe that we are a PART of anything; rather, we hold the belief that we are the ONLY members of the Restored Christian religion, and that no other denomination is a valid expression of genuine Christianity. Tell me about any other religious denominations that are associated with the Restored gospel. Is it the Baptist denomination? Our missionaries do not make an effort to convert Baptists, do they? Yes, they do, because we don't believe they're part of the Restored Christian faith. What about Catholics; do they subscribe to the doctrines of the Restored Christian faith? Why don't we make an effort to bring them into our faith and baptize them? Oh yes we do don't we! I get that it makes you feel better to state that we are PART the Restored Christian religion because that sounds more inclusive, but please understand that this is not what the gospel teaches. If calling Jews Christians helps you feel better, then by all means feel free to continue doing so. If calling the native Americans Christians before the Christians were actually Christians makes you feel better, then by all means, feel free to do that. However, you might not want to do that when you're face to face with them, so it's better to stick to calling them Christians from behind the computer. 

Now you sound upset.  I will gladly refer to anyone who fits the definition of Christian as found in the Book of Mormon as Christian, i.e. those who believe in Christ.  That fits us, that fits those who lived prior to the time of Christ that believed in him, and those today who believe in Christ.  

The question is, do you believe the definition of Christian as it is found in the Book of Mormon, or not?  And if not, then why not?  Are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually "Christians" (like the Book of Mormon says) and part * of the "Restored Christian faith", or is "Christianity" something else altogether?  You continue to try to have it both ways.  Do you believe the Book of Mormon definition of what it means to be a "Christian", or not?

* The word "part" is intentional, since the restoration is ongoing and will continue through the Millennium.

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, jpv said:

That's too bad.

I think we're closer to Catholics/Orthodoxy than Protestantism, but that's probably a minority opinion. 

My experience is that your theology is closer to Catholicism (priesthood authority, required ordinances, hierarchy, etc) but that your culture is closer to Protestantism (simple chapels and Sunday services, funeral potatoes  , etc).

[The Nehor]

Was reading this guy’s history and then saw he ran a cryptocurrency.

I bowed out at that point.

[LoudmouthMormon]

4 hours ago, Sara H said:

Thanks for explaining to our Christian readers that we think Christianity started before Christ was born. 

I can't tell if you're trying to be serious, or trying to make a point with sarcasm.  I do note that the more you post in this thread, the more words you're all-capping.  Not sure if you're meaning to convey outrage or anger or frustration, or simply trying to yell to make your point more clear.  Either way, I'm failing to get a lot of where you're coming from.  (Unless the place you're coming from is 'mad'.) 

We've got a record of Nephi preaching about Jesus Christ, by name, somewhere around ~550 B.C.   We think we're Christians.  We've also got, from the very start of the restoration, a history full of ticking off mainstream and trinitarian Christians with our truth claims that conflict with theirs.  If you can't join us in proclaiming the truth, at least please don't stand against us while we do it.

[LoudmouthMormon]

46 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

My experience is that your theology is closer to Catholicism (priesthood authority, required ordinances, hierarchy, etc) but that your culture is closer to Protestantism (simple chapels and Sunday services, funeral potatoes  , etc).

And we're also closer to Old Testament Judaism, with our temples and prophets and health codes and being led through the wilderness in exile.

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[Calm]

1 minute ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

And we're also closer to Old Testament Judaism, with our temples and prophets and health codes and being led through the wilderness in exile.

 

Don Bradley said the lost pages that were first translated made that connection with Judaism much more obvious. 

[Sara H]

12 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Now you sound upset.  I will gladly refer to anyone who fits the definition of Christian as found in the Book of Mormon as Christian, i.e. those who believe in Christ.  That fits us, that fits those who lived prior to the time of Christ that believed in him, and those today who believe in Christ.  

The question is, do you believe the definition of Christian as it is found in the Book of Mormon, or not?  And if not, then why not?  Are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually "Christians" (like the Book of Mormon says) and part * of the "Restored Christian faith", or is "Christianity" something else altogether?  You continue to try to have it both ways.  Do you believe the Book of Mormon definition of what it means to be a "Christian", or not?

* The word "part" is intentional, since the restoration is ongoing and will continue through the Millennium.

You claim to be a Christian, yet at the same time you tell the other two billion Christians on the planet that they have no priesthood authority from God. You wish to be recognized as a Christian, but at the same time, you consider every form of Christian baptism to be invalid, and you baptize their dead because a Christian baptism isnt good enough according to our doctrine. You have the desire to be identified as a Christian, but at the same time, you reject the validity of every Christian ceremony and ordinance. You want to be recognized as a Christian, but at the same time you want to tell them that their wedding ceremony isn't adequate to bring them back into God's presence. You want to be known as a Christian, but at the same time you say that the genuine gospel was removed from the earth and kept safe somewhere in heaven while the Christians were on the earth dealing with people who wanted to destroy Christianity, they dealt with death, wars, pestilence, hunger, thirst, and the loss of loved ones, and apparently the whole time they were without the living gospel of Christ according to our doctrine. 

I find it a little hypocritical to say that we are Christians when we declare that the actual true gospel, the true Christianity, was removed from the earth while they were fighting for what they perceived to be the true gospel for the past 2000 years. Christianity has a rich and successful history over the past 2000 years, and it has 25% of the human population adhering to its precepts in one way or another. 

Yes, I am aware of the meaning behind your repeated use of the phrase "PART of the Restored fauth." You are basically claiming that during the millennium there will be plenty of decent Christians on earth, and that at that time they will convert to the genuine gospel, which is our gospel, and they will reject the Christianity that they were raised with. You believe that people of other religions, including Christians and Jews, will convert to our gospel throughout the millennium because The Lord will govern from two capitals at that time: one in Palestine and one right here in the United States of America, known as Zion. Because that is how the Lord will rule, through his priesthood, and because we are the only Christians on earth who wield the right priesthood power from on high, all religions and all governments that are still on earth during the millennium will be subject to the authority of the priesthood, in other words, the power you hold.