My New Ex/Former Pentacostal/Restoration Minister Friend Joins LDS Church/Faith

[Navidad]

On 9/7/2023 at 8:52 AM, rodheadlee said:

Label me so I label you, I dub thee unforgiven. Lyrics from a Metallica song.

The point being I think we struggle mightily when we try to label things in a tight box rather than a loose interpretation. I don't really care how people label my relationship with God, I know what it is.

I like this a lot. I am trying, from the other side of the coin to not care how my LDS friends label my relationship with God, since I too, know what it is. Perhaps I am simply needier from an affiliation perspective. It still hurts . . . but the jolt of my recent ward experience has helped toughen me. I am not sure that is a good thing, but I think it helps. Can you give me the name of the Metallica song? I know nothing about them, but I love those words. Thanks.

[Navidad]

On 9/7/2023 at 9:30 AM, manol said:

Agreed. 

I think what you are saying is consistent with the principle of religious tolerance and respect for others as illustrated in the eleventh Article of Faith: 

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

In this context I think we could say, "We claim the privilege of labeling ourselves in relationship to Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all mankind the same privilege... "

I would agree if you added this to the article - "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may, and we will make no effort to convert them to our manner of worshiping or to our own conscience since we really no kidding allow all men the same privilege." Deal?

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I would agree if you added this to the article - "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may, and we will make no effort to convert them to our manner of worshiping or to our own conscience since we really no kidding allow all men the same privilege." Deal?

Have you never participated in or supported missionary work?  Serious question.
 

I don’t understand your attitude here. If you thought you had a better way to do a delicate surgery, even if someone else had a good way to do it, wouldn’t you try to get them to change to what you believe is a better way of helping people?  If it’s important to try and find the best way to treat someone physically, why not spiritually?

Edited September 9, 2023 by Calm

[Navidad]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Have you never participated in or supported missionary work?

Good question and a bit complicated. Yes, I have participated in and supported missionary work. I served a mission and served on the international board of a mission organization. That was back in the 1960s- early 80s. Back then I would not have accepted the LDS article of faith - "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." Those words would not have come out of my mouth because I didn't grant them the same privilege. Having said that, my mission work was of a service nature, not a proselytizing nature.

Today some forty to fifty-some years later, I have a broader view of the wideness in God's mercy. I won't go into it again, because I have done so on several occasions over the past years here. I have spent most of that time in the world of public education, being introduced to a broad array of varying ideas, into which I could not inject my personal ideology. That would have been antithetical to my  chosen vocation. I have also broadened my theological horizons greatly. So, do I participate in or support missionary work right now? It depends. My wife and I have supported a mission relief agency working in Ukraine during this time of war.

I spent hours this week with members of the LDS church, did I ever once seek to discuss doctrine with them? Only one night in a Q&A session when several asked "What's a Mennonite?" I gave a surface answer and they kept pushing for a more doctrinal answer? I answered their questions, but never had it in my mind to try and dissuade them to my way of thinking. I am fascinated how my different concept of judgment has led me to a belief in a wider doctrine of mercy. That, I believe is a good thing. Best.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Good question and a bit complicated. Yes, I have participated in and supported missionary work. I served a mission and served on the international board of a mission organization. That was back in the 1960s- early 80s. Back then I would not have accepted the LDS article of faith - "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." Those words would not have come out of my mouth because I didn't grant them the same privilege. Having said that, my mission work was of a service nature, not a proselytizing nature.

Today some forty to fifty-some years later, I have a broader view of the wideness in God's mercy. I won't go into it again, because I have done so on several occasions over the past years here. I have spent most of that time in the world of public education, being introduced to a broad array of varying ideas, into which I could not inject my personal ideology. That would have been antithetical to my  chosen vocation. I have also broadened my theological horizons greatly. So, do I participate in or support missionary work right now? It depends. My wife and I have supported a mission relief agency working in Ukraine during this time of war.

I spent hours this week with members of the LDS church, did I ever once seek to discuss doctrine with them? Only one night in a Q&A session when several asked "What's a Mennonite?" I gave a surface answer and they kept pushing for a more doctrinal answer? I answered their questions, but never had it in my mind to try and dissuade them to my way of thinking. I am fascinated how my different concept of judgment has led me to a belief in a wider doctrine of mercy. That, I believe is a good thing. Best.

It is not about mercy to me, it is about quality of life. If I believe someone could be happier being a Saint, I will try to give them an opportunity to learn about us so they can have a choice.  I don’t see why giving people choices isn’t better than not giving them a choice, you making the decision for them not to teach them even if they are curious. 
 

I am not condemning you for making that choice, I just don’t understand it. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Calm

[Navidad]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is not about mercy to me, it is about quality of life. If I believe someone could be happier being a Saint, I will try to give them an opportunity to learn about us so they can have a choice.  I don’t see why giving people choices isn’t better than not giving them a choice, you making the decision for them not to teach them even if they are curious. 
 

I am not condemning you for making that choice, I just don’t understand it. 

Fair enough. However, I don't see anything in the LDS church that would make me happier than I am right now or improve my quality of life. I have had a choice and have chosen to remain in my faith as it is . . . not church . . . . but faith. For us, church and faith are very different. I think the LDS faith would be very stressful for my wife and me. It reminds me too much of my early Fundamentalism.

If your missionaries find folks who are unhappy where they are in their current faith life; then by all means give them the choice of your gospel. True missiology is discerning in its outreach. Perhaps that is why when my wife and I met a group of missionaries in the cultural festival last Saturday for the first time, they greeted us kindly and by name. However, there was no missionary talk in that encounter. There never has been in six years, through at least thirty missionaries at the very least. We are not unhappy; we are not candidates for anything more than fellowship, ministry, and worship. Someone is advising them well. That is excellent missiology. Take care and thanks for not condemning me. We share a common faith; we have a different church. I would rather have it that way, than the reverse.

[Navidad]

This gentleman has had an interesting journey in faith. Reading his biography tells me that his journey is probably not yet over. I wonder where he will land next. After sojourneying for a while, there has been something wrong with everywhere he has landed.  That is my take from his About me page.

[manol]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I would agree if you added this to the article - "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may, and we will make no effort to convert them to our manner of worshiping or to our own conscience since we really no kidding allow all men the same privilege." Deal?

Imo the LDS Church does an enormous amount of life-changing good for many people that it only reaches because of its missionary efforts. 

I think the LDS Church is following what they believe Jesus told his apostles to do; in other words, individually and collectively they really do take the Great Commission very seriously. 

And in general I'm not in favor of constraining anyone's beliefs or practice of their beliefs beyond whatever minimum is required to protect against abuse. 

 

 

 

[rodheadlee]

22 hours ago, Navidad said:

I like this a lot. I am trying, from the other side of the coin to not care how my LDS friends label my relationship with God, since I too, know what it is. Perhaps I am simply needier from an affiliation perspective. It still hurts . . . but the jolt of my recent ward experience has helped toughen me. I am not sure that is a good thing, but I think it helps. Can you give me the name of the Metallica song? I know nothing about them, but I love those words. Thanks.

Unforgiven

[Damien the Leper]

On 9/9/2023 at 10:07 AM, Navidad said:

Do you not know of Hiram Abiff?

That's a Masonic legend. It has nothing to do with Solomon's Temple from a historical standpoint.

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

That's a Masonic legend. It has nothing to do with Solomon's Temple from a historical standpoint.

Perhaps its a myth? Lots of legends and myths out there!

[The Nehor]

On 9/9/2023 at 3:02 PM, Navidad said:

This gentleman has had an interesting journey in faith. Reading his biography tells me that his journey is probably not yet over. I wonder where he will land next. After sojourneying for a while, there has been something wrong with everywhere he has landed.  That is my take from his About me page.

Yep, that is the impression I get.