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My New Ex/Former Pentacostal/Restoration Minister Friend Joins LDS Church/Faith


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3 hours ago, Sara H said:

You claim to be a Christian, yet at the same time you tell the other two billion Christians on the planet that they have no priesthood authority from God. You wish to be recognized as a Christian, but at the same time, you consider every form of Christian baptism to be invalid, and you baptize their dead because a Christian baptism isnt good enough according to our doctrine. You have the desire to be identified as a Christian, but at the same time, you reject the validity of every Christian ceremony and ordinance. You want to be recognized as a Christian, but at the same time you want to tell them that their wedding ceremony isn't adequate to bring them back into God's presence. You want to be known as a Christian, but at the same time you say that the genuine gospel was removed from the earth and kept safe somewhere in heaven while the Christians were on the earth dealing with people who wanted to destroy Christianity, they dealt with death, wars, pestilence, hunger, thirst, and the loss of loved ones, and apparently the whole time they were without the living gospel of Christ according to our doctrine. 

I find it a little hypocritical to say that we are Christians when we declare that the actual true gospel, the true Christianity, was removed from the earth while they were fighting for what they perceived to be the true gospel for the past 2000 years. Christianity has a rich and successful history over the past 2000 years, and it has 25% of the human population adhering to its precepts in one way or another. 

Yes, I am aware of the meaning behind your repeated use of the phrase "PART of the Restored fauth." You are basically claiming that during the millennium there will be plenty of decent Christians on earth, and that at that time they will convert to the genuine gospel, which is our gospel, and they will reject the Christianity that they were raised with. You believe that people of other religions, including Christians and Jews, will convert to our gospel throughout the millennium because The Lord will govern from two capitals at that time: one in Palestine and one right here in the United States of America, known as Zion. Because that is how the Lord will rule, through his priesthood, and because we are the only Christians on earth who wield the right priesthood power from on high, all religions and all governments that are still on earth during the millennium will be subject to the authority of the priesthood, in other words, the power you hold.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How do you define a "Christian"?  Is it a "believer of Christ" (like what the Bible and Book of Mormon both say and many dictionaries) or something else?

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3 minutes ago, webbles said:

How do you define a "Christian"?  Is it a "believer of Christ" (like what the Bible and Book of Mormon both say and many dictionaries) or something else?

So you believe a Christian is someone who believes in Christ and that's it, nothing else? 

Doesn't the Bible teach that even the Devils "believe"

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2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

So what's your definition of Christian?

It seems that, depending on who you ask, there are many different interpretations of what it means to be a Christian. One of God's apostles gives a description of the people who call themselves "Christians." 

Screenshot_20230904_124338_Messages.thumb.jpg.8d512c8dde8bfaf2ee015cea4e425c91.jpg

If you read what Bruce stated in the statement that I posted, he says that many of the people who believe themselves to be Christians worship a false religion even though they are good and honest people but they have been misled by the craftiness of men. He goes on to add that many Christians will be struck by various plagues until such time as they turn from their sins and believe the gospel, or else they will be annihilated. And I know that at this very moment you're probably trying to think of a way to argue that he's not talking about Christians, which is why the last half of this remark is so crucial. You noticed where Bruce claims that every living soul on earth will become a member of our church, right? He doesn't t claim that every single live being will eventually become a Christian, does he? Is this how you understand what a Christian is supposed to be like? Is this your impression of Christians in the  millennium? 

Edited by Sara H
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10 minutes ago, Sara H said:

If you read what Bruce stated in the statement that I posted, he says that many of the people who believe themselves to be Christians worship a false religion even though they are good and honest people but they have been misled by the craftiness of men. He goes on to add that many Christians will be struck by various plagues until such time as they turn from their sins and believe the gospel, or else they will be annihilated. And I know that at this very moment you're probably trying to think of a way to argue that he's not talking about Christians, which is why the last half of this remark is so crucial. You noticed where Bruce claims that every living soul on earth will become a member of our church, right? He doesn't t claim that every single live being will eventually become a Christian, does he? Is this how you understand what a Christian is supposed to be like? Is this your impression of Christians in the  millennium? 

So what is your definition of Christian?  Someone who is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Edited to Add:

By the way, if you really want Elder McConkie's definition of Christians, I think consulting "Mormon Doctrine" would be better since he wrote it and has a section titled "Christians":

Quote

Christians
(Christians )
See BELIEVERS, BRETHREN, CHRIST, CHRISTIANITY, CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF
LATTER-DAY SAINTS, DISCIPLES, MORMONS, PROPHETS, SAINTS.
True believers in Christ, both in America among the Nephites and in the old world beginning in
apostolic times, were called Christians. (Alma 46:13-16; 48:10; Acts 11:26; 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16.) Probably
the name was applied first in derision, but it found ready acceptance among the members of the Church
because they rejoice in the privilege of taking upon themselves "the name of Christ, or Christians" (Alma
46:15.)
As the day of the great apostasy set in, the term Christian continued to be applied to the supposed
followers of Christ, even though in reality they had departed from the true doctrines. Today those who
purport to believe in Christ though they may not actually accept him as the Son of God, are called
Christians.
The first Nephite reference to Christians in the Book of Mormon is dated about 73 B.C. in what the
sectarian world would call the pre-Christian era. But since the doctrine of Christ has been taught in
successive dispensations from the days of Adam to the present, either the very name Christian or some
equally expressive synonym has been applied to the saints of the Most High of all ages.

Is that your definition?

Edited by webbles
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27 minutes ago, webbles said:

As the day of the great apostasy set in, the term Christian continued to be applied to the supposed
followers of Christ, even though in reality they had departed from the true doctrines. Today those who
purport to believe in Christ though they may not actually accept him as the Son of God, are called
Christians

Did you truly read the description of what a Christian is that you provided? Just take a look at how Bruce refers to Christians as "supposed followers of christ." He continues by defining them as those who have actually turned away from sound doctrines. Then, rather than simply referring to them as Christians, he claims that they claim to believe in Christ even though they may not acknowledge him as the son of God. This doesn't really paint a very good picture of what a Christian is, does it? He appears to be making a really nice attempt to argue that we are the only genuine Christians and that everyone else has been duped. 

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15 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I already gave my definition of "Christian" (the one from the Book of Mormon, which apparently you don't like).  But you still haven't answered the question, what is your definition of Christian?

Was Brother Brigham right when he claimed that Paganism had been engrafted into Christianity and that, in the end, Christianity had been converted to Paganism? Because when I'm ready to give you my description of what a Christian is, I'l include it if you agree that he was right. 

 

Screenshot_20230904_134128_Chrome.jpg

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15 minutes ago, Sara H said:

Did you truly read the description of what a Christian is that you provided? Just take a look at how Bruce refers to Christians as "supposed followers of christ." He continues by defining them as those who have actually turned away from sound doctrines. Then, rather than simply referring to them as Christians, he claims that they claim to believe in Christ even though they may not acknowledge him as the son of God. This doesn't really paint a very good picture of what a Christian is, does it? He appears to be making a really nice attempt to argue that we are the only genuine Christians and that everyone else has been duped. 

What is your definition of Christian?  If you don't accept Elder McConkie's, then why did you post something from him.  What is a Christian in your mind?  You seem to not have any definition.  Is no one a Christian?  Who is a Christian?

Also, you didn't really read his description very well.  He defined who a Christian is and then talked about "so-called" Christians who you would probably call "historical Christians".  He definitely defined members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as Christian.  I'm not sure if that is your definition or not because you've never given a definition.

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53 minutes ago, Sara H said:

Because when I'm ready to give you my description of what a Christian is, I'l include it if you agree that he was right. 

I already provided my definition of Christian (as defined in the Book of Mormon, a believer in Christ).  And what I agree with or don't agree with should have no bearing on your definition of Christian. 

What is your definition of Christian?

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10 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I already provided my definition of Christian (as defined in the Book of Mormon, a believer in Christ).  And what I agree with or don't agree with should have no bearing on your definition of Christian. 

What is your definition of Christian?

She has visited the board since you posted these last posts and yet not answered.  Hopefully she was interrupted and intends to actually answer them.

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On 9/3/2023 at 2:43 PM, Sara H said:

Do you know that by writing such a lengthy piece, you have just informed the two billion Christians who believe that Christianity began sometime around the year 50 BC that they are once again incorrect and that we are right? No wonder so many Christians dont view LDS as Christians. Not only that, but you have now stated that the Jews from the Old Testament were apparently Christians, and by citing Alma as an example for Christianity on the American continent, you have practically indicated that native Americans were also Christians. 

I beg you to assure me that you are not looking for evidence to prove that Muslims are also Christians in order to explain your position.

 

Your inability to answer his question shows your deep ability to be duplicitous. There is a great deal of absurdity that lay in many of your posts since joining. The majority of LDS persons here tend to hold themselves to a higher standard than this.

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22 hours ago, Sara H said:

Did you truly read the description of what a Christian is that you provided? Just take a look at how Bruce refers to Christians as "supposed followers of christ." He continues by defining them as those who have actually turned away from sound doctrines. Then, rather than simply referring to them as Christians, he claims that they claim to believe in Christ even though they may not acknowledge him as the son of God. This doesn't really paint a very good picture of what a Christian is, does it? He appears to be making a really nice attempt to argue that we are the only genuine Christians and that everyone else has been duped. 

No one ever said Mr. McConkie was all that bright. He did write Mormon Doctrine, after all.

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1 minute ago, Damien the Leper said:

I don't believe that @Sara H can define what a Christian is. However, She seems capable of standing on her soap box and telling us what a Christian isn't. This girl is exhausting. 

Missed you, Damien.  :) 

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22 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I already provided my definition of Christian (as defined in the Book of Mormon, a believer in Christ).  And what I agree with or don't agree with should have no bearing on your definition of Christian. 

What is your definition of Christian?

Yes, definitions are important, especially in a world where many people have trouble deciding what a woman is. So, I think it's important to find out if someone who says they are a Christian is one just because they say so. One might wonder, "Who really is a Latter-day Saint?" Now, most Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints members I know would say that they are the only Latter-day Saints, that all other LDS sects lack God's power and authority, and that other LDS groups are led by false prophets. Do we call the more than 100 different LDS groups' members "Latter-day Saints" just because they say they are? Can a member of a small Latter-day Saint sect be considered an LDS if they are baptized by their priesthood head? You and I, on the other hand, would say that we are the only real Latter-day Saints and that everyone else who says they are LDS is lying and that their prophets and Apostles are also false. Do you agree? 

So, the question comes up again: Does it show how arrogant we Latter-day Saints are that we say anyone can be a Christian just because they profess to be, but we don't call people who say they're the real Latter-day Saints, Latter-day Saints because we say they don't have power and authority from God?

So let's go back to what it means to be a Christian. Traditionally, the LDS church has taught tthat Christians who say they preach the real word of Christ in their own way are false prophets and false teachers. The brethren have taught for a long time that people who say Joseph Smith was a clever con man, question the truth of the first vision, or say the Book of Mormon is not true are fake prophets and false teachers. Joseph Smith said that there were always false teachers and leaders who tried to compete with the real ones, especially in the last days. Do you not think that what I just said about the Latter-day Saint movement is how most Christians feel? 

Joseph asked, " What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil by which he deceives the whole world." Now, if what Joseph Smith said here is true and some Christians are being influenced by the Devil himself, should we just believe someone when they say they are a Christian? Joseph also said, " Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the christian religion would warrant the establishment of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints" I think this quote is very important if you want to know how Joseph felt about the people in his time who called themselves Christians. First, what does "complete apostasy" mean? Does he mean that Protestants and Catholics have forgotten all of Christ's original lessons and now only listen to false prophets and teachers? Brigham said that there would come a time when paganism would be mixed with Christianity, and when that happened, Christianity would become paganism. Think this what Brigham said is true, InCognitus? If you believe brother Brigham, how can we tell who is a true follower of Christ and who is a follower of the Christianity that brother Brigham says is affected by pagan beliefs? The third leader of our church, John Taylor, said that Christianity is a perfect bunch of nonsense and that the Devil couldn't have come up with a better way to spread his work than Christianity did in the 1800s. President Taylor, the third president of the Church, taught this, is it true, InCognitus.? If parts of Christianity follow the work of the Devil, is everyone who says they believe in Christ a Christian? 

Here's my take on what's going on in this thread. Members of our church think of the word "Christian" as a "terrestrial" word. This is because if you're not LDS and you're a Christian, you can only go to the terrestrial kingdom. This means that a Christian who is a true believer in the Lord's gospel will never be in God's presence. That's why you're so ready to believe anyone who calls themselves a Christian, because to most Lds it really isn't a big deal, kind of like how exaltation is more importan to us than salvation. 

If If Joseph, Brigham and John, the first three prophets of our church say Christianity is being influenced by the Devil, how does one determine if a Christian is actually a Christian? 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Sara H said:

Yes, definitions are important, especially in a world where many people have trouble deciding what a woman is. So, I think it's important to find out if someone who says they are a Christian is one just because they say so. One might wonder, "Who really is a Latter-day Saint?" Now, most Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints members I know would say that they are the only Latter-day Saints, that all other LDS sects lack God's power and authority, and that other LDS groups are led by false prophets. Do we call the more than 100 different LDS groups' members "Latter-day Saints" just because they say they are? Can a member of a small Latter-day Saint sect be considered an LDS if they are baptized by their priesthood head? You and I, on the other hand, would say that we are the only real Latter-day Saints and that everyone else who says they are LDS is lying and that their prophets and Apostles are also false. Do you agree? 

So, the question comes up again: Does it show how arrogant we Latter-day Saints are that we say anyone can be a Christian just because they profess to be, but we don't call people who say they're the real Latter-day Saints, Latter-day Saints because we say they don't have power and authority from God?

So let's go back to what it means to be a Christian. Traditionally, the LDS church has taught tthat Christians who say they preach the real word of Christ in their own way are false prophets and false teachers. The brethren have taught for a long time that people who say Joseph Smith was a clever con man, question the truth of the first vision, or say the Book of Mormon is not true are fake prophets and false teachers. Joseph Smith said that there were always false teachers and leaders who tried to compete with the real ones, especially in the last days. Do you not think that what I just said about the Latter-day Saint movement is how most Christians feel? 

Joseph asked, " What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil by which he deceives the whole world." Now, if what Joseph Smith said here is true and some Christians are being influenced by the Devil himself, should we just believe someone when they say they are a Christian? Joseph also said, " Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the christian religion would warrant the establishment of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints" I think this quote is very important if you want to know how Joseph felt about the people in his time who called themselves Christians. First, what does "complete apostasy" mean? Does he mean that Protestants and Catholics have forgotten all of Christ's original lessons and now only listen to false prophets and teachers? Brigham said that there would come a time when paganism would be mixed with Christianity, and when that happened, Christianity would become paganism. Think this what Brigham said is true, InCognitus? If you believe brother Brigham, how can we tell who is a true follower of Christ and who is a follower of the Christianity that brother Brigham says is affected by pagan beliefs? The third leader of our church, John Taylor, said that Christianity is a perfect bunch of nonsense and that the Devil couldn't have come up with a better way to spread his work than Christianity did in the 1800s. President Taylor, the third president of the Church, taught this, is it true, InCognitus.? If parts of Christianity follow the work of the Devil, is everyone who says they believe in Christ a Christian? 

Here's my take on what's going on in this thread. Members of our church think of the word "Christian" as a "terrestrial" word. This is because if you're not LDS and you're a Christian, you can only go to the terrestrial kingdom. This means that a Christian who is a true believer in the Lord's gospel will never be in God's presence. That's why you're so ready to believe anyone who calls themselves a Christian, because to most Lds it really isn't a big deal, kind of like how exaltation is more importan to us than salvation. 

If If Joseph, Brigham and John, the first three prophets of our church say Christianity is being influenced by the Devil, how does one determine if a Christian is actually a Christian? 

 

 

I'm not as smart as most people on here, (sound like Forrest Gump don't I?) but do remember reading quotes or ? of early leaders having issues with the Christians back then. So maybe it was more the certain Christians that Joseph was surrounded with in his day, those Christians. Especially one pastor in particular that told him his brother Alvin is probably in hell for not being baptized. It's no wonder that Joseph started the church he did. And I'm not saying he didn't have help, it could be that God wanted to change the scene on earth. I've lost a surety on these things for now, once had it. But like the others on this thread I think any Christian, LDS or non LDS, can call themselves a Christian if they believe in Christ. So there shouldn't be any doubt about that part. But do agree that at one time the label Christian (or IMO the different sects in and around where Joseph lived who were believers of Christ) put a bad taste in the mouth or mind of Joseph at the time. And he saw fit to pray about it and then came to the determination that none of those sects were right. Not whether Christianity was wrong or right, IMO

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I'm not as smart as most people on here, (sound like Forrest Gump don't I?) but do remember reading quotes or ? of early leaders having issues with the Christians back then. So maybe it was more the certain Christians that Joseph was surrounded with in his day, those Christians. Especially one pastor in particular that told him his brother Alvin is probably in hell for not being baptized. It's no wonder that Joseph started the church he did. And I'm not saying he didn't have help, it could be that God wanted to change the scene on earth. I've lost a surety on these things for now, once had it. But like the others on this thread I think any Christian, LDS or non LDS, can call themselves a Christian if they believe in Christ. So there shouldn't be any doubt about that part. But do agree that at one time the label Christian (or IMO the different sects in and around where Joseph lived who were believers of Christ) put a bad taste in the mouth or mind of Joseph at the time. And he saw fit to pray about it and then came to the determination that none of those sects were right. Not whether Christianity was wrong or right, 

If I understand you right, as long as someone believes, they are a Christian, right? OK, let's try something out. Let's say that a 60-year-old man who has never believed in God had a vision in which God told him he needed to start a Christian church. The man starts speaking from a street corner the next day. Within six months, he had rented a building for his Chapel. Within a year, the IRS recognizes him as a church and gives him all the tax breaks that a church in the United States gets. He calls himself a prophet and shares his beliefs with as many people as he can. He tells people that the ten commandments are a good place to start if they want to become Christians, but that they are not complete. He also tells his followers that child sacrifice is still required today, just like it was for the Israelites. Exodus 22:29-30 is used by the preacher as proof that child sacrifice is a commandment. The new Christian leader is a good speaker who makes it easy for people to join his church. In just five years, he has gained more than 10,000 followers. During the secret baptism process that is required to join the Christian church, new members make a covenant to never talk about the child sacrifices they witness because most Christians wouldn't understand. 

Now that it's been 25 years, the Christian church is still going strong. Every year, more people join, and tithing payments keep bringing in money. The prophet is still telling people what the Bible says about God, and his followers are still telling people they are Christians. The only real difference between the prophet's church and mainstream Christianity is that once a month, a child is sacrificed in a ceremony that takes pplace in secret. 

This little story I made up isn't too far from a scenario that could be true. A man can make up a faith and get a lot of people to follow it at any time. Jim Jones, Charles Manson, Branch Davidian's, and Heaven's Gate all went too far with their religions.  

So, I'd like to ask you, Tacenda, in my story, the prophet knew for sure that he was a Christian, and God told him that along with the tten commandments he had to sacrifice children. He had a real church in a real building, and the IRS gave it tax-free status. His followers were completely committed to Christ, the church, and the prophet they followed. They felt in their bones that they were Christians. 

 

Tacenda, do you believe the members of this child sacrificing Christian  church are Christians? 

 

Edited by Sara H
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