A Door That Swings Both Ways

[InCognitus]

31 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

 

Non answer, Mike.  Can you do better?

What is it that drove you to this point in your life?  We had such good conversations with you when you were here a year or so ago.  I miss the old Mike.

[RAD DAD]

2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Non answer, Mike.  Can you do better?

What is it that drove you to this point in your life?  We had such good conversations with you when you were here a year or so ago.  I miss the old Mike.

This thread is ten pages in now, which means the moderators accepted my CFR and at some point I'm going to report you for calling me Mike. What's your problem, do you have a screw loose?

[RAD DAD]

Just now, RAD DAD said:

This thread is ten pages in now, which means the moderators accepted my CFR and at some point I'm going to report you for calling me Mike. What's your problem, do you have a screw loose?

Until you stop calling me Mike, I'm going to give you a nickname, 🤔🤔🤔, I know! How bout Karen! That will work. 

[InCognitus]

1 minute ago, RAD DAD said:

This thread is ten pages in now, which means the moderators accepted my CFR and at some point I'm going to report you for calling me Mike. What's your problem, do you have a screw loose?

Nobody has reported you (yet).  I haven't.

Don't deny it, Mike.  We all know who you really are.

Back to the important part:

Since faith comes before repentance in the first principles of the gospel, are you saying that non-members can't have "faith" too?  That is the first principle of the gospel, right?

[RAD DAD]

5 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Nobody has reported you (yet).  I haven't.

Don't deny it, Mike.  We all know who you really are.

Back to the important part:

Since faith comes before repentance in the first principles of the gospel, are you saying that non-members can't have "faith" too?  That is the first principle of the gospel, right?

 

[Navidad]

20 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

ok, so what do nonmembers do with their "serious" sins? 

Repent directly to Christ, the only eternal High Priest!

[InCognitus]

6 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

 

Mike, this is just juvenile. 

Can you just engage the evidence I brought up earlier?

Doctrine and Covenants section 3 was given in July of 1828.  The Aaronic priesthood wasn't even restored until May 15, 1829, 10 months later (today is the anniversary of the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood).  In section 3 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord tells Joseph and Martin Harris to "repent":

"Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall.  But remember, God is merciful; therefore, repent of that which thou hast done which is contrary to the commandment which I gave you, and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work;   Except thou do this, thou shalt be delivered up and become as other men, and have no more gift."  (Doctrine and Covenants 3:9–11)

So answer this, Mike.  How could Joseph and Martin repent without confessing to a common judge in Israel?

And why would Joseph Smith, on March 27, 1836 at the dedication of the temple at Kirtland, pray the following?

"Have mercy, O Lord, upon the wicked mob, who have driven thy people, that they may cease to spoil, that they may repent of their sins if repentance is to be found;  But if they will not, make bare thine arm, O Lord, and redeem that which thou didst appoint a Zion unto thy people.  And if it cannot be otherwise, that the cause of thy people may not fail before thee may thine anger be kindled, and thine indignation fall upon them, that they may be wasted away, both root and branch, from under heaven;  But inasmuch as they will repent, thou art gracious and merciful, and wilt turn away thy wrath when thou lookest upon the face of thine Anointed."  (Doctrine and Covenants 109:50–54)

How can these people, outside of "our" church, repent?

And, since faith comes before repentance in the first principles of the gospel, are you saying that non-members can't have "faith" too? 

Address the evidence.  No more dodging. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, RAD DAD said:

That's what I have been saying. I've tried to make it clear by saying often as possible,  "according to church doctrine" throughout this discussion. I personally do not understand what Calm and incognitos are trying to explain to me. To me, they're trying to make repentance sound like  something a Christian denomination would believe in, but as I understand repentance, the way I was taught growing up in the church, no one, not a member or non member will be totally forgiven for their sins unless they follow the repentance process set forth in the doctrine of the church. There's many steps in the repentance process in our church, why, because we believe in works to prove our worthiness. That work will either be done hear on earth, which is preferable, or be done in spirit prison, but it needs to be complete before the repentance process is complete. And if someone chooses not to complete the work, we'll I guess they end up in the lowest kingdom, I don't know. 

Do you believe there's a book of life for all of us?

The evidence I see that God forgives those who have not been cleared by a legitimate priesthood authority is that He allows those who have maintained sufficient conscience the opportunity to receive a witness of the gospel, which maintenance entails some prior practice with repentance of some kind. No matter how far off the path they got. This is demonstrated by Saul and Alma the Younger when they responded to the Lord’s warnings. If they had not repented or refrained from worse things, they would not possess a conscience sufficient to be receptive to the Lord's intervention, which is in part a reflection of grace and forgiveness of past, repented-of sins. Only afterwards did they meet with their respective mortal priesthood authorities for further action. While the Lord of course has legitimate priesthood authority in the first place, the process under discussion is what goes on through His delegated process in the kingdom of God on earth.

[RAD DAD]

7 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Repent directly to Christ, the only eternal High Priest!

I agree that's what Christians do. Are there any other steps that need to be taken after that?

 

Could you tell us what the steps are a christian needs to take to be fully repentant?

Edited May 15, 2023 by RAD DAD

[CV75]

1 minute ago, RAD DAD said:

I agree that's what Christians do. Are there any other steps that need to be taken after that?

If they come across the Restored Gospel, of course there is more they can understand and do with that understanding. If they do not or are not ready or willing to accept the restored Gospel, the Lord will not remove any repentance or forgiveness they have received from Him thus far. The Church does not condemn them either, only continues to offer the covenant path. Every church wants people to join their community and presents their selling points accordingly. Ours is that the priesthood keys have been restored to prophets and apostles, with the attendant doctrine, covenants and ordinances.

[Vanguard]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

If they come across the Restored Gospel, of course there is more they can understand and do with that understanding. If they do not or are not ready or willing to accept the restored Gospel, the Lord will not remove any repentance or forgiveness they have received from Him thus far. The Church does not condemn them either, only continues to offer the covenant path. Every church wants people to join their community and presents their selling points accordingly. Ours is that the priesthood keys have been restored to prophets and apostles, with the attendant doctrine, covenants and ordinances.

At risk of pulling the thread from its track, "...com[ing] across the Restored Gospel" is different for everyone IMO. So much that we are unable to know if said exposure to the Gospel was sufficient to merit their accepting it. Was it the billboard inviting some to call the missionaries? Was it a missionary visit? Several discussions? Visiting the church services? Hearing someone's tesitmony? Baptism? Even attending the temple? Who knows?

Edited May 15, 2023 by Vanguard

[Navidad]

37 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

I agree that's what Christians do. Are there any other steps that need to be taken after that?

 

Could you tell us what the steps are a christian needs to take to be fully repentant?

That depends wildly on the circumstances and the other parties. I would suggest that the minimum from the New Testament is to repent and turn around (a change of mind). That is probably a prerequisite for peace. Peace is what repentance is all about. Its pretty hard to grow in Christ when one is not at peace. Peace is a wonderful blessing. I haven't heard any mention of peace in this thread. Christ made a way for us to repent so we could have peace - His peace - the peace that passes understanding - the fruit of the spirit kind of peace.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Navidad

[InCognitus]

52 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

This thread is ten pages in now, which means the moderators accepted my CFR and at some point I'm going to report you for calling me Mike.

Report me.  Please.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, RAD DAD said:

 

I've reported this post (because I graduated from middle school a long time ago and i have no desire to deal with that kind of behavior as an adult).  If you do get banned, it won't be because of incognitius. 

I just wanted to put that out there so he didn't get the blame if it happens.

 

[bluebell]

35 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

At risk of pulling the thread from its track, "...com[ing] across the Restored Gospel" is different for everyone IMO. So much that we are unable to know if said exposure to the Gospel was sufficient to merit their accepting it. Was it the billboard inviting some to call the missionaries? Was it a missionary visit? Several discussions? Visiting the church services? Hearing someone's tesitmony? Baptism? Even attending the temple? Who knows?

Exactly.

Information is different than knowledge.

[Vanguard]

Just now, bluebell said:

Exactly.

Information is different than knowledge.

My own twist on it has me saying "information is different than experience". : )

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

At risk of pulling the thread from its track, "...com[ing] across the Restored Gospel" is different for everyone IMO. So much that we are unable to know if said exposure to the Gospel was sufficient to merit their accepting it. Was it the billboard inviting some to call the missionaries? Was it a missionary visit? Several discussions? Visiting the church services? Hearing someone's tesitmony? Baptism? Even attending the temple? Who knows?

That is correct in my book -- who knows? This is between God and the individual; Acts 17:27 uses the word "haply," and in those verses (24-28), this "coming across" is a nexus of God's appointments and our "feeling after" Him and certainly (from my personal experience) can have nothing to do with the immediate and direct introduction and presentation of the message of the Restored Gospel, but anything that is honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, charitable, lovely, of good report and praiseworthy along the way; none of these attributes are exclusive to the covenant path. I will add to that list: "repentant."

Which is why I think the notion that the Church teaches there is only one way to repent is not correct, but the way it teaches the doctrine of repentance is correct.

Edited May 16, 2023 by CV75

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying here.  The 5 R's of Christianity are not the 5 R's of repentance.  Repentance is just the 1st "R" of overcoming spiritual death.  If I understand this teaching correctly, in the 5 R's of Christianity everything after repentance is accomplished by Christ and His Atonement of Christ.

Can you clarify for me what you are trying to say?

Well, I googled, if that helps. It's an all around way Christianity views repentance I thought.

In the google it mentions the 5 "R's" of Repentance, so I thought it worked. I looked up some definitions for the list:

Repentance:

is a change of heart and life regarding sin. It is a turning from our sinful ways and towards God

Redemption:

noun. an act of redeeming or atoning for a fault or mistake, or the state of being redeemed. deliverance; rescue. Theology. deliverance from sin; salvation.

Restitution:

an act of restoring or a condition of being restored: such as. : a restoration of something to its rightful owner. : a making good of or giving an equivalent for some injury.

Reconciliation:

the end of the estrangement, caused by original sin, between God and humanity. John Calvin describes reconciliation as the peace between humanity and God that results from the expiation of religious sin and the propitiation of God's wrath.

Restoration:

means to place nothing before Him and His will for you. God invites us and makes it possible to repent and ask for forgiveness. Because Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected for our salvation, we can be restored in Him. Repentance and restoration are used by God to help us thrive.

 

 

[bluebell]

53 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, I googled, if that helps. It's an all around way Christianity views repentance I thought.

In the google it mentions the 5 "R's" of Repentance, so I thought it worked. I looked up some definitions for the list:

Repentance:

is a change of heart and life regarding sin. It is a turning from our sinful ways and towards God

Redemption:

noun. an act of redeeming or atoning for a fault or mistake, or the state of being redeemed. deliverance; rescue. Theology. deliverance from sin; salvation.

Restitution:

an act of restoring or a condition of being restored: such as. : a restoration of something to its rightful owner. : a making good of or giving an equivalent for some injury.

Reconciliation:

the end of the estrangement, caused by original sin, between God and humanity. John Calvin describes reconciliation as the peace between humanity and God that results from the expiation of religious sin and the propitiation of God's wrath.

Restoration:

means to place nothing before Him and His will for you. God invites us and makes it possible to repent and ask for forgiveness. Because Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected for our salvation, we can be restored in Him. Repentance and restoration are used by God to help us thrive.

 

 

Thanks!  I looked it up and the article I found called it the five R’s of Christianity, and the author of the article said that he was going to focus on the first R, which was repentance.

that author said that the five R’s were basically the five essentials of Christian belief.

https://www.sidneyherald.com/community/religion/the-5-rs-of-christianity-repentance/article_c32599ca-4a5d-11eb-a749-4b2337520b27.html#:~:text=The 5 R's of Christianity%3A Repentance%2C Redemption%2C,Restitution%2C Reconciliation%2C %26 Restoration.

Maybe there is a different five R’s of repentance? I did find an article that mentioned the seven R’s of repentance, but I didn’t open it to see what they were.

[InCognitus]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thanks!  I looked it up and the article I found called it the five R’s of Christianity, and the author of the article said that he was going to focus on the first R, which was repentance.

that author said that the five R’s were basically the five essentials of Christian belief.

https://www.sidneyherald.com/community/religion/the-5-rs-of-christianity-repentance/article_c32599ca-4a5d-11eb-a749-4b2337520b27.html#:~:text=The 5 R's of Christianity%3A Repentance%2C Redemption%2C,Restitution%2C Reconciliation%2C %26 Restoration.

Maybe there is a different five R’s of repentance? I did find an article that mentioned the seven R’s of repentance, but I didn’t open it to see what they were.

If I remember correctly, the Jews have 613 R's of repentance (or something like that).

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Exactly.

Information is different than knowledge.

ANY statement of three words with IS between the other two is true.

This is false. 😳

[manol]

Imo highly relevant to the topic of repentance, be it in this life or the next:

For anyone with an interest in multiple first-person eyewitness accounts of assessment, evaluation, and judgment on the other side, here is an NDE compilation video cued up to where near-death experiencers are describing their life reviews.  This life-review/judgment section lasts for about thirty-eight minutes: 

 

 

Then at the end of the compilation is an insightful ten-minute summary by a near-death experiencer (you might even want watch this first), from which I pulled the following quote:

 

"When we've passed from this life... we'll realize we always were one, we always were connected, it was just our inability to embrace it and realize it that held us back." 

 

https://youtu.be/pElbm3YPkQ0?t=7204

 

I'm pretty sure at least two of the speakers are (or were at the time of their experience) LDS. 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by manol

[Navidad]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

Thanks!  I looked it up and the article I found called it the five R’s of Christianity, and the author of the article said that he was going to focus on the first R, which was repentance.

that author said that the five R’s were basically the five essentials of Christian belief.

https://www.sidneyherald.com/community/religion/the-5-rs-of-christianity-repentance/article_c32599ca-4a5d-11eb-a749-4b2337520b27.html#:~:text=The 5 R's of Christianity%3A Repentance%2C Redemption%2C,Restitution%2C Reconciliation%2C %26 Restoration.

Maybe there is a different five R’s of repentance? I did find an article that mentioned the seven R’s of repentance, but I didn’t open it to see what they were.

Methinks these five R's are the five R's of reformed Christianity.

[RAD DAD]

So this thread was never going to be about repentance, I would like to get back to the original discussion if we could.  

So I was sitting in a parking lot at 4:30 this morning waiting for a store to open and looking at everything around me. Directly in front of me was this huge, very old oak tree. And I'm thinking, if God made this tree, if God is real, if he made everything we're experiencing at this moment, he must be an engineer to design something so brilliant as a tree, he must be a mathematician, a scientist, a doctor, a builder, and it got me thinking about how someone so intelligent, lost 1/3 of his children in a war in heaven that he fought against one of his most trusted advisers and son, Lucifer. And as of late, I just can't seem to stop thinking that God and Lucifer may be working in unison to create what we're experiencing here on this earth. Why do I say that? Because I don't understand this power Lucifer has been given for the purpose to tempt us while we're here on earth, it doesn't make sense to me. Is it priesthood power? Doesn't priesthood power govern the universe? And if it is priesthood power, then it can't be used for evil, correct? 

So what is this power Lucifer is using? And how does it get here to earth? If there's angels involved helping Lucifer tempt us, how are they getting the evil ideas into our brains? Is it a ray beam that's shot down into our head? Is it an email they send to a server we have implanted in our brain? Or is it more simple, and they're invisible, and constantly standing beside us, whispering in our ear trying to get us to do wrong? 

Do these angels of Lucifer love us, I mean, we are family, and we share the same parents, do they actually want us to choose the right, even though their job is to make us choose the wrong? 

How powerful is their power of Lucifer? Let's say one of God's angels isn't available, maybe they're on a potty break, can the Lucifer angel step in and protect us if he or she sees something about to go wrong, something that wasn't supposed to happen? This is one aspect of the door I'm talking about! Is the power of God and Lucifer completely separate, or is it intertwined and available to both sides trying to temp us? 

 

[MustardSeed]

Interesting theory.  It seems to me that God cannot perfect us without the challenges of temptation, and since He can’t be the one to facilitate temptation, Satan is an important part of God’s program.  So at least in that way, they are working together.