A Door That Swings Both Ways

[RAD DAD]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

  A Lutheran who sincerely believes in his religion and has faith in Christ can repent of and be forgiven of his sins outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints through Christ's Atonement

I don't think so. He can repent, but he probably won't be forgiven in this life, unless he joins the church. There's more to repentance than just telling God you feel bad for breaking a commandment. 

 

 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

I agree, but what you're explaining also pertains to baptism. Anyone can get baptized, but if they want to have a legitimate baptism that's done with priesthood authority, they'll have to be baptized into the church. According to church doctrine, no other baptism is sufficient to get you on to the covenant path, is that a true statement according to our doctrine? YES.

What I'm saying is, the same holds true for repentance. Of course anyone can repent, just like anyone can get baptized, but true repentance leads to the acceptance of the everlasting gospel. 

Would I be correct in saying if a Baptist man who had an ongoing affair with his wife's best friend then started to feel extremely guilty so he starts the repentance process on his own without a priesthood leader overseeing the process, is going about repenting in the wrong way? NOT ENTIRELY. Yes he's repenting, but it doesn't really matter because it isn't being carried out the correct way. The correct way would be having a common judge of Israel over see the repentance process then tell the guy when he's fully done with the repentance process. Repentance has to go through the correct channels, just like baptism. So in my opinion, church doctrine teaches that the Baptist man will have an opportunity to repent for his sin of cheating in spirit prison by having the repentance process overseen by a worthy priesthood holder, that's if he doesn't join the church first before he dies. Would that be correct? AN OPINION IS NEITHER CORRECT NOR INCORRECT.

I interjected the short answers in BOLD in your quoted post above. But yes, what I am saying applies to any part of the Gospel of Christ. So, I think it is more correct to say, “only the Church offers legitimate priesthood authority,” since no one comes to faith in the covenant path without exercising faith in the light they previously possessed. This light may or may not have involved rites and sacraments according to their own faith traditions (Christian or otherwise), and need not have involved any prior religious belief or practice at all.

Is repentance part of the covenant path? It depends; like any other religious principle, repentance can lead to entering the legitimate covenants of the Church. These are immediately preceded by an interview with a legitimate priesthood authority, which can be construed as part of the repentance process, since it can involve a determination/declaration of worthiness (past repentance), confession (as an expression of forsaking the sin), or a resolution to live a new life as a member of the Church. Repentance might involve ongoing counseling by a legitimate priesthood authority or simple change in religious conviction.

I’d say your Baptist friend is going about the repentance process the right way given the light he has. Should he discover the Restored Gospel, he will have the opportunity to repent as described in the paragraph immediately above. I think that is a more comprehensive and correct representation of the doctrine of Christ as set forth in the Book of Mormon and the teachings of the Church, and certainly more accurate than simply telling him he’s not really repenting, or he's repenting wrong. I didn’t watch Elder Oaks’ instructions to the missionaries, but I think he would instruct the adulterous Baptist according to his needs and still teach correct doctrine.

Edited May 15, 2023 by CV75

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

I don't think so. He can repent, but he probably won't be forgiven in this life, unless he joins the church. There's more to repentance than just telling God you feel bad for breaking a commandment. 

 

 

Like I said, you are free to believe that.  But it's not what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches.  It doesn't work with our doctrine.

(and I agree, there is more to repentance than just feeling sorrow for our sins).

[RAD DAD]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I've explained our doctrine and answered these questions.  You are of course free to believe that our doctrine is wrong.  But I've expressed what we believe and what we teach so while you can believe that we are wrong, it's not accurate to state we don't believe what we do.

You can decide what you believe, but you can't decide what we believe.

If the Lutheran is a sincere believer in his religion and baptized in his Lutheran faith, will God accept that baptism and let the Lutheran pass into the celestial kingdom without being baptized into the everlasting gospel,  the gospel we preach hear on earth? 

[bluebell]

Just now, RAD DAD said:

If the Lutheran is a sincere believer in his religion and baptized in his Lutheran faith, will God accept that baptism and let the Lutheran pass into the celestial kingdom without being baptized into the everlasting gospel,  the gospel we preach hear on earth? 

I'll quote what I said to you earlier--"Eventually, perhaps after death, that person would be given the chance to learn more truth and to accept baptism and confirmation (and temple covenants) through authorized means, completing those requirements for forgiveness and exaltation. "

 

[RAD DAD]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Like I said, you are free to believe that.  But it's not what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches.  It doesn't work with our doctrine.

(and I agree, there is more to repentance than just feeling sorrow for our sins).

Here's where you're confusing me. Let me use my cousin for a second. He grew up I think Baptist, I'm not sure, he went to the hostel hall assembly church. He has two baby mommas that he struggles to pay child support to. He steals bikes to help supplement his addictions, he Smokes heavily, drinks heavily, been in and out of jail, grows weed, smokes weed, sales weed, is obsessed with weed, dreams of weed and watches more porn than five deacons on a BSA camping trip. Let's say tomorrow he decides to repent and turn his life around,  how does he know when he's completed the repentance process. Because he's not going to know how to go about repenting. He's going to think he drops to his knees and ask God for forgiveness and then he's done with repenting. So if you don't mind, can you tell me, if he drops to his knees and ask God for forgiveness and does nothing else, is he forgiven? Because I say he's not, not in this life, maybe in the life after if he accepts the gospel and repents to God under the council of a priesthood leader. 

 

 

[Vanguard]

14 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Here's where you're confusing me. Let me use my cousin for a second. He grew up I think Baptist, I'm not sure, he went to the hostel hall assembly church. He has two baby mommas that he struggles to pay child support to. He steals bikes to help supplement his addictions, he Smokes heavily, drinks heavily, been in and out of jail, grows weed, smokes weed, sales weed, is obsessed with weed, dreams of weed and watches more porn than five deacons on a BSA camping trip. Let's say tomorrow he decides to repent and turn his life around,  how does he know when he's completed the repentance process. Because he's not going to know how to go about repenting. He's going to think he drops to his knees and ask God for forgiveness and then he's done with repenting. So if you don't mind, can you tell me, if he drops to his knees and ask God for forgiveness and does nothing else, is he forgiven? Because I say he's not, not in this life, maybe in the life after if he accepts the gospel and repents to God under the council of a priesthood leader. 

Johnny come lately on this thread...

We are given an ideal standard for repentance (though I may be in disagreement with you on the details). Each individual has a capacity for not only following his 'light of Christ' when obeying this light but also in amending wrongs that his conscience tells him was wrong. That said individual may not achieve the ideal laid out for repentance, it will not be counted against him as long as he is honoring his conscience. To answer your question about your cousin, I do not know what his insight/capacity is though if you are asking whether there are individuals who after dropping to their knees, achieve forgiveness then my answer is yes. As long as we're honoring our conscience sufficiently, these things cannot be counted against us.

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Here's where you're confusing me. Let me use my cousin for a second. He grew up I think Baptist, I'm not sure, he went to the hostel hall assembly church. He has two baby mommas that he struggles to pay child support to. He steals bikes to help supplement his addictions, he Smokes heavily, drinks heavily, been in and out of jail, grows weed, smokes weed, sales weed, is obsessed with weed, dreams of weed and watches more porn than five deacons on a BSA camping trip. Let's say tomorrow he decides to repent and turn his life around,  how does he know when he's completed the repentance process. Because he's not going to know how to go about repenting. He's going to think he drops to his knees and ask God for forgiveness and then he's done with repenting. So if you don't mind, can you tell me, if he drops to his knees and ask God for forgiveness and does nothing else, is he forgiven? Because I say he's not, not in this life, maybe in the life after if he accepts the gospel and repents to God under the council of a priesthood leader. 

 

 

That would be between Him and God, honestly.

If he does what he knows--and that's all he knows--then I would say that yes, he's forgiven.  But that process would also allow the spirit to influence him and to help him grow spiritually to be closer to Christ every day that he continued to try to change his life. He would need to continue to have faith in Christ and to continue to follow the spirit as best he can to retain forgiveness.  

That might mean that at first, all he believes he needs to do is to say a prayer.  And Christ can work with that!  But the spirit would help him to understand that he would need to somehow provide restitution for the things that he stole, or the harm that he caused, and his continuing repentance would require him to continue to follow the spirit and go where it leads, away from sin and towards Him.

Christ forgave sinful men and women instantly, the moment that they sought Him and exhibited faith.  But He left them with directions to stop sinning.  If they had continued on, living as they had before, their earlier repentance would have had no real effect on them.

(I think you also might not be aware that when a bishop helps someone to repent, they are not the one who forgives that person.  Christ forgives.  The bishop simply helps the person with the process of changing their life and can declare when the person has done all that the church required of them to turn back to God and away from the serious sins they had been involved with.  But the actually forgiveness is still--and will always be--between the person and Christ).  

[RAD DAD]

4 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Johnny come lately on this thread...

We are given an ideal standard for repentance (though I may be in disagreement with you on the details). Each individual has a capacity for not only following his 'light of Christ' when obeying this light but also in amending wrongs that his conscience tells him was wrong. That said individual may not achieve the ideal laid out for repentance, it will not be counted against him as long as he is honoring his conscience. To answer your question about your cousin, I do not know what his insight/capacity is though if you are asking whether there are individuals who after dropping to their knees, achieve forgiveness then my answer is yes. As long as we're honoring our conscience sufficiently, these things cannot be counted against us.

Thanks for taking the time to post. When I read what you wrote it just doesn't sound right to me, like something is missing. In my opinion, yeah my cousin can repent, but it won't be a complete and truthful repentance process while he's here on earth.  He'll have to go through the same steps as any member of the church does. In my opinion he'll have to seek out the people he stole from and apologize. He will have to feel sorrow for his sins, he'll have to forsake his sins, he'll have to make restitution, he must forgive others and he must keep the commandments, just like members of our church do when they repent. This can all be fine under a priesthood leader in spirit prison,  correct? Isn't that the purpose of spirit prison? 

[Vanguard]

1 minute ago, RAD DAD said:

Thanks for taking the time to post. When I read what you wrote it just doesn't sound right to me, like something is missing. In my opinion, yeah my cousin can repent, but it won't be a complete and truthful repentance process while he's here on earth.  He'll have to go through the same steps as any member of the church does. In my opinion he'll have to seek out the people he stole from and apologize. He will have to feel sorrow for his sins, he'll have to forsake his sins, he'll have to make restitution, he must forgive others and he must keep the commandments, just like members of our church do when they repent. This can all be fine under a priesthood leader in spirit prison,  correct? Isn't that the purpose of spirit prison? 

Aside from my personally not liking the term 'spirit prison', what about what you've said runs counter to what I said? I think the point is that an individual who drops on his knees to repent almost by definition already experiences sorrow for his sins and a desire to forsake them else why would he ask forgiveness from his god in the first place? If there is anything missing, I believe there will be a process for things to be righted for all of us in the next life.

Am I missing the point?

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

Aside from my personally not liking the term 'spirit prison', what about what you've said runs counter to what I said? I think the point is that an individual who drops on his knees to repent almost by definition already experiences sorrow for his sins and a desire to forsake them else why would he ask forgiveness from his god in the first place? If there is anything missing, I believe there will be a process for things to be righted for all of us in the next life.

Am I missing the point?

Didn't you just make the point?

That person will have to wait until the other side of the veil to repent fully, according to the LDS. And even then, they'll only get the full blessings of repentence--the full experience of repentence--after this life. Their sorrow their restitution, their personal improvement will never be as much as if they also took part in the saving ordinances and will only be complete with the saving ordinances.

That's the doctrine. Personally I never thought about it like that until now. It is a valid point RAD is making.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Meadowchik

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Didn't you just make the point?

That person will have to wait until the other side of the veil to repent fully, according to the LDS. And even then, they'll only get the full blessings of repentence--the full experience of repentence--after this life. Their sorrow their restitution, their personal improvement will never be as much as if they also took part in the saving ordinances and will only be complete with the saving ordinances.

That's the doctrine. Personally I never thought about it like that until now. It is a valid point RAD 

Edited May 15, 2023 by MustardSeed

[Vanguard]

11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Didn't you just make the point?

That person will have to wait until the other side of the veil to repent fully, according to the LDS. And even then, they'll only get the full blessings of repentence--the full experience of repentence--after this life. Their sorrow their restitution, their personal improvement will never be as much as if they also took part in the saving ordinances and will only be complete with the saving ordinances.

That's the doctrine. Personally I never thought about it like that until now. It is a valid point RAD is making.

I guess my point is that won't we all have to wait until the other side of the veil? Though I know you're not suggesting this, the most important piece of repentance IMO is not making sure you do it in front of a Priesthood holder. I have always (at least throughout my adult years) believed that not only do we fall short of each moral ideal given to us in this life  but that we also in a similar way fall short of the mark with repentance. How could it be that that we hit the ideal with repentance alone? IMO we'll all undergo quite the transition after the veil. That for the vast majority their repentance was not in front of a Priesthood holder pales in comparison to infinitely weightier aspects of the repentance process.

Unless I'm not understanding RAD's point?

[Meadowchik]

7 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I guess my point is that won't we all have to wait until the other side of the veil? Though I know you're not suggesting this, the most important piece of repentance IMO is not making sure you do it in front of a Priesthood holder. I have always (at least throughout my adult years) believed that not only do we fall short of each moral ideal given to us in this life  but that we also in a similar way fall short of the mark with repentance. How could it be that that we hit the ideal with repentance alone? IMO we'll all undergo quite the transition after the veil. That for the vast majority their repentance was not in front of a Priesthood holder pales in comparison to infinitely weightier aspects of the repentance process.

Unless I'm not understanding RAD's point?

I can't speak for him, but for me his point is meaningful and does have some impact in my life and others lives. 

To be clear, I'm an atheist, I don't rely on a Saviour to repent/return to good. However, lots of people I love believe I should. And it does impact them, it does give them sorrow. And in some cases it does drive a wedge between us.

I and ultimately in my mind the cost is even higher. They believe that our relationship has a chance to be repaired, for us to be fully one in the gospel, but they might have to wait until the next life.

Whereas I am ready now to be fully engaged as a family member or as a friend and for me time is short--fir all I know this life is our only chance.

[Vanguard]

7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I can't speak for him, but for me his point is meaningful and does have some impact in my life and others lives. 

I guess I'm still not yet understanding the point. : (

8 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

To be clear, I'm an atheist, I don't rely on a Saviour to repent/return to good. However, lots of people I love believe I should. And it does impact them, it does give them sorrow. And in some cases it does drive a wedge between us.

I and ultimately in my mind the cost is even higher. They believe that our relationship has a chance to be repaired, for us to be fully one in the gospel, but they might have to wait until the next life.

Whereas I am ready now to be fully engaged as a family member or as a friend and for me time is short--fir all I know this life is our only chance.

You raise an interesting point for me. Your phraseology "...rely on a Savior to repent" I find mildly awkward. Academically, I guess I do rely on the Savior though I believe we are given a conscience (unless you don't believe in a supreme being who has given it to us either?) that helps us navigate through the myriad complexities of managing relationships in the here and now. Though my repentance does include recognizing my Savior's role in forgiveness, it is the palpable experience of my conscience being pricked that primarily drives me to want to course correct.

And I do like your desire to be fully engaged in the here and now. I am in agreement with this sentiment. Let's not save for the afterlife - so to speak - what can be engaged in and fully embraced right now . : )

[RAD DAD]

18 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I guess my point is that won't we all have to wait until the other side of the veil

That's what I have been saying. I've tried to make it clear by saying often as possible,  "according to church doctrine" throughout this discussion. I personally do not understand what Calm and incognitos are trying to explain to me. To me, they're trying to make repentance sound like  something a Christian denomination would believe in, but as I understand repentance, the way I was taught growing up in the church, no one, not a member or non member will be totally forgiven for their sins unless they follow the repentance process set forth in the doctrine of the church. There's many steps in the repentance process in our church, why, because we believe in works to prove our worthiness. That work will either be done hear on earth, which is preferable, or be done in spirit prison, but it needs to be complete before the repentance process is complete. And if someone chooses not to complete the work, we'll I guess they end up in the lowest kingdom, I don't know. 

Do you believe there's a book of life for all of us?

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Here's where you're confusing me. Let me use my cousin for a second. He grew up I think Baptist, I'm not sure, he went to the hostel hall assembly church. He has two baby mommas that he struggles to pay child support to. He steals bikes to help supplement his addictions, he Smokes heavily, drinks heavily, been in and out of jail, grows weed, smokes weed, sales weed, is obsessed with weed, dreams of weed and watches more porn than five deacons on a BSA camping trip. Let's say tomorrow he decides to repent and turn his life around,  how does he know when he's completed the repentance process. Because he's not going to know how to go about repenting. He's going to think he drops to his knees and ask God for forgiveness and then he's done with repenting. So if you don't mind, can you tell me, if he drops to his knees and ask God for forgiveness and does nothing else, is he forgiven? Because I say he's not, not in this life, maybe in the life after if he accepts the gospel and repents to God under the council of a priesthood leader. 

 

 

 

What are the 5 R's of repentance?

The 5 R's of Christianity: Repentance, Redemption, Restitution, Reconciliation, & Restoration. 

Googled the above, and think this about covers it.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Tacenda

[RAD DAD]

27 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I and ultimately in my mind the cost is even higher. They believe that our relationship has a chance to be repaired, for us to be fully one in the gospel, but they might have to wait until the next life.

Whereas I am ready now to be fully engaged as a family member or as a friend and for me time is short--fir all I know this life is our only chance.

Dang it!! This pisses me off! I have seen so many members of the church write family members off because they don't believe anymore. And you are correct, so many say 🤷‍♂️ oh well, maybe we'll have another shot at a great relationship once we've died and you have learned that the church is actually true. 

[RAD DAD]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

What are the 5 R's of repentance?

The 5 R's of Christianity: Repentance, Redemption, Restitution, Reconciliation, & Restoration. 

Googled the above, and think this about covers it.

 

 

 

 

Why can't I give you an award there's no option. 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Dang it!! This pisses me off! I have seen so many members of the church write family members off because they don't believe anymore. And you are correct, so many say 🤷‍♂️ oh well, maybe we'll have another shot at a great relationship once we've died and you have learned that the church is actually true. 

I find it incredibly sad because most of my extended family have left the church, and it has had no impact on our relationship. It sucks when members react that way because it’s completely unnecessary. 

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Why can't I give you an award there's no option. 

I'm on "limited", can't give likes or receive them. That's what happens if you post things that might break rules.  

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

What are the 5 R's of repentance?

The 5 R's of Christianity: Repentance, Redemption, Restitution, Reconciliation, & Restoration. 

Googled the above, and think this about covers it.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying here.  The 5 R's of Christianity are not the 5 R's of repentance.  Repentance is just the 1st "R" of overcoming spiritual death.  If I understand this teaching correctly, in the 5 R's of Christianity everything after repentance is accomplished by Christ and His Atonement of Christ.

Can you clarify for me what you are trying to say?

[InCognitus]

11 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

The problem I'm having with what incognito and Calm are trying to say about repentance is, they think according to doctrine, a non member can fully repent on their own without confessing to a common judge of Israel.

Mike, you are indeed having a problem with this.  You can't find anything in Latter-day Saint doctrine to support the idea that a non member (or even a member for that matter, other than situations explained in my prior post) needs to confess to a common judge of Israel in order to fully repent.  

So rather than admitting your problem, you ignore my request (and ignored my post completely) and are now trying to make it sound like Calm and myself are the problem.  You've been asked several times to provide a source that supports your view, and you can't seem do that. 

11 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

So what I think they're trying to convey to everyone here, especially the non members is that non members can go directly to God an repent, or, they can go to their ecclesiastical leader  and repent to him and that will good enough for God. IM SAYING THAT’S NOT WHAT OUR CHURCH TEACHES. 

I don't know what "church" you mean is "our church".  Back on May 6th, you said (posting as "Truth Teller"):  "I've learned since leaving the church, that there's absolutely nothing that can be said to convince a mormon or a mmber of any other cult that they're in a cult".  Since you have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and you believe members of the church are in a "cult", you don't have any right to comment on "our church" because it's not "your church". 

You can't find one single official LDS source that says that a non-member needs to confess to a common judge of Israel in order to fully repent, and it's obviously bugging you.  

11 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Here's exactly why I say this! The first principles of the gospel are, Faith in the lord Jesus Christ, REPENTANCE, Baptism and Laying on of the hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Finally!  You admitted that repentance comes BEFORE anyone is a member of the church.  And you admit here that a person doesn't need to confess to a common judge of Israel to fully repent, because repentance comes before baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

11 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

I was taught that's why Joseph restored the gospel, so people could come to the gospel and be able to have and partake in those principles once more, like they could when the gospel was here on earth when Jesus walked the earth.

This has to do with joining the church and participating in the covenants leading to exaltation, yes.

11 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

What I'm putting forth is, we believe...

"WE believe"?  No, you left the church, remember?  You don't believe this anymore.

11 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

people who lived during the time between the death of Jesus and Joseph restoring the gospel didn't have an opportunity to have a true faith in a true gospel because the church/gospel wasn't even on earth, there was no priesthood authority. We believe all churches during that time were littered with half truths of the gospel, not one had a pure truth.

But they did have some degree of truth, yes.

11 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Same for repentance, no one during that time had an opportunity to fully repent because there was no priesthood or priesthood leaders here on earth during that time.

Priesthood authority is not required for someone to repent.  And here is proof.  Doctrine and Covenants section 3 was given in July of 1828.  The Aaronic priesthood wasn't even restored until May 15, 1829, 10 months later (today is the anniversary of the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood).  In section 3 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord tells Joseph and Martin Harris to "repent":

"Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall.  But remember, God is merciful; therefore, repent of that which thou hast done which is contrary to the commandment which I gave you, and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work;   Except thou do this, thou shalt be delivered up and become as other men, and have no more gift."  (Doctrine and Covenants 3:9–11)

So answer this, Mike.  How could Joseph and Martin repent without confessing to a common judge in Israel?

And why would Joseph Smith, on March 27, 1836 at the dedication of the temple at Kirtland, pray the following?

"Have mercy, O Lord, upon the wicked mob, who have driven thy people, that they may cease to spoil, that they may repent of their sins if repentance is to be found;  But if they will not, make bare thine arm, O Lord, and redeem that which thou didst appoint a Zion unto thy people.  And if it cannot be otherwise, that the cause of thy people may not fail before thee may thine anger be kindled, and thine indignation fall upon them, that they may be wasted away, both root and branch, from under heaven;  But inasmuch as they will repent, thou art gracious and merciful, and wilt turn away thy wrath when thou lookest upon the face of thine Anointed."  (Doctrine and Covenants 109:50–54)

How can these people, outside of "our" church, repent?

11 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

What's my proof for that besides the talk I provided?

The talk you provided offers no "proof" of your claim.  That has been demonstrated.

11 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Well that's simple, the next principle of the gospel is baptism, and there again, we don't believe anyone living on earth during the 1800 year period the gospel/priesthood was taken from the earth had the ability to be baptized by a man with priesthood authority, that's why we baptize dead people!! The fourth is laying on of hands. That also was part of the restoration  and a principle that was missing during the 1800 year period the gospel was not here on earth. Maybe some religions would lay hands on people during that 1800 year period,  but the men who performed those rituals didn't have priesthood power. 

Mike, remember, these are steps that lead up to baptism.  First, faith.  Second repentance.  A person can repent but it may or may not lead them to baptism.  But they can't be baptized unless they repent!  

11 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Incognito and Calm are trying to separate the repentance principle from the other three and I say you can't.

Are you saying that non-members can't have "faith" too?  That's the first principle of the gospel. 

All four steps are necessary for admission into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but faith and repentance can be had by non-members too.  And you can't seem to prove otherwise.  

11 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

Once more, here's the first principles of the gospel 

1. Faith. But not just any faith, faith in the LDS gospel will get you back to God, not a belief in the Baptist religion or catholicism or etc.

No.  It says explicitly:  "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ"  (Articles of Faith 1:4)

Try to twist that one.

11 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

3. Baptism.  Not any baptism,  a LDS baptism will get you back to God, not a Baptist baptism, not a catholic baptism, etc.

4. Laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost. Not any laying on of hands, a LDS laying on of hands!! A group of Baptist or a group of catholic men laying their hands on someone after a non mormon baptism won't satisfy the devine decree of God as far as baptism and receiving the gift of the holy ghost.

2. Last but not least, Repentance! I say when Joseph restored the gospel he restored the ability for people to FULLY repent by joining the church and repenting and being guided by a man with proper priesthood authority, and that principle was missing on earth just like the #1 #2 and #4. 

I noticed, Mike, how you had to flip the order of these principles to try to manipulate this to support your point.  The fact is, repentance is not, "last but not least", it is second after "Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ".  Faith in Jesus Christ and repentance comes before the others.  Clearly a person can repent without the others.  

11 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

I'm also saying if a non member wants to fully repent, they can go to a LDS bishop to repent, just like if they wanted a priesthood blessing by a group of men with the proper priesthood authority, they could ask the bishop to give them a blessing with consecrated oil and they could have a group of men with priesthood authority bless them.

Of course they could do this if they wanted to, but people everywhere can repent, according to the light and knowledge given them.

Now Mike, quit trying to pretend you are a member and be up front with everyone about what you're doing in manipulating our doctrine.  You believe we are in a "cult", so is that what you think gives you the right to twist what we actually believe and teach?

Edited May 15, 2023 by InCognitus

[RAD DAD]

38 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Mike, you are indeed having a problem with this.  You can't find anything in Latter-day Saint doctrine to support the idea that a non member (or even a member for that matter, other than situations explained in my prior post) needs to confess to a common judge of Israel in order to fully repent.  

So rather than admitting your problem, you ignore my request (and ignored my post completely) and are now trying to make it sound like Calm and myself are the problem.  You've been asked several times to provide a source that supports your view, and you can't seem do that. 

I don't know what "church" you mean is "our church".  Back on May 6th, you said (posting as "Truth Teller"):  "I've learned since leaving the church, that there's absolutely nothing that can be said to convince a mormon or a mmber of any other cult that they're in a cult".  Since you have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and you believe members of the church are in a "cult", you don't have any right to comment on "our church" because it's not "your church". 

You can't find one single official LDS source that says that a non-member needs to confess to a common judge of Israel in order to fully repent, and it's obviously bugging you.  

Finally!  You admitted that repentance comes BEFORE anyone is a member of the church.  And you admit here that a person doesn't need to confess to a common judge of Israel to fully repent, because repentance comes before baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This has to do with joining the church and participating in the covenants leading to exaltation, yes.

"WE believe"?  No, you left the church, remember?  You don't believe this anymore.

But they did have some degree of truth, yes.

Priesthood authority is not required for someone to repent.  And here is proof.  Doctrine and Covenants section 3 was given in July of 1828.  The Aaronic priesthood wasn't even restored until May 15, 1829, 10 months later (today is the anniversary of the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood).  In section 3 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord tells Joseph and Martin Harris to "repent":

"Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall.  But remember, God is merciful; therefore, repent of that which thou hast done which is contrary to the commandment which I gave you, and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work;   Except thou do this, thou shalt be delivered up and become as other men, and have no more gift."  (Doctrine and Covenants 3:9–11)

So answer this, Mike.  How could Joseph and Martin repent without confessing to a common judge in Israel?

And why would Joseph Smith, on March 27, 1836 at the dedication of the temple at Kirtland, pray the following?

"Have mercy, O Lord, upon the wicked mob, who have driven thy people, that they may cease to spoil, that they may repent of their sins if repentance is to be found;  But if they will not, make bare thine arm, O Lord, and redeem that which thou didst appoint a Zion unto thy people.  And if it cannot be otherwise, that the cause of thy people may not fail before thee may thine anger be kindled, and thine indignation fall upon them, that they may be wasted away, both root and branch, from under heaven;  But inasmuch as they will repent, thou art gracious and merciful, and wilt turn away thy wrath when thou lookest upon the face of thine Anointed."  (Doctrine and Covenants 109:50–54)

How can these people, outside of "our" church, repent?

The talk you provided offers no "proof" of your claim.  That has been demonstrated.

Mike, remember, these are steps that lead up to baptism.  First, faith.  Second repentance.  A person can repent but it may or may not lead them to baptism.  But they can't be baptized unless they repent!  

Are you saying that non-members can't have "faith" too?  That's the first principle of the gospel. 

All four steps are necessary for admission into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but faith and repentance can be had by non-members too.  And you can't seem to prove otherwise.  

No.  It says explicitly:  "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ"  (Articles of Faith 1:4)

Try to twist that one.

I noticed, Mike, how you had to flip the order of these principles to try to manipulate this to support your point.  The fact is, repentance is not, "last but not least", it is second after "Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ".  Faith in Jesus Christ and repentance comes before the others.  Clearly a person can repent without the others.  

Of course they could do this if they wanted to, but people everywhere can repent, according to the light and knowledge given them.

Now Mike, quit trying to pretend you are a member and be up front with everyone about what you're doing in manipulating our doctrine.  You believe we are in a "cult", so is that what you think gives you the right to twist what we actually believe and teach?

 

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, RAD DAD said:

That's what I have been saying. I've tried to make it clear by saying often as possible,  "according to church doctrine" throughout this discussion. I personally do not understand what Calm and incognitos are trying to explain to me. To me, they're trying to make repentance sound like  something a Christian denomination would believe in,...

I have not followed closely enough what Calm or InCognitus are saying. I'm still not sure I understand what you are saying. : )

1 hour ago, RAD DAD said:

...but as I understand repentance, the way I was taught growing up in the church, no one, not a member or non member will be totally forgiven for their sins unless they follow the repentance process set forth in the doctrine of the church

Well, at some point I would imagine those who strived (strove?) to reach toward their capacities in this life will have it all worked out beyond the veil. I hold to the notion that there will be a refining for literally everyone despite our best efforts in this mortality. Again, that another's repentance did not include a Priesthood holder will be of little relative consequence.

1 hour ago, RAD DAD said:

There's many steps in the repentance process in our church, why, because we believe in works to prove our worthiness. That work will either be done hear on earth, which is preferable, or be done in spirit prison, but it needs to be complete before the repentance process is complete. And if someone chooses not to complete the work, we'll I guess they end up in the lowest kingdom, I don't know. 

I don't know that I go with your "...because we believe in works to prove our worthiness" phraseology though that is a separate issue. Indeed, there are ordinances that require Priesthood authority (if that's what you mean) though that will easily be remedied in the hereafter for the vast majority of humankind. And again, relative to the most important variable, these 'done-by-proper-authority' steps will pale in comparison to the much weightier considerations. If someone chooses not to complete the work as you say, where they 'end up' will depend entirely on the capacity given them in this mortality and whether they stretched for this capacity sufficient to live in His presence. And guess what? There's only one authority who makes these determinations and it ain't us. ; )

1 hour ago, RAD DAD said:

Do you believe there's a book of life for all of us?

I believe there is some kind of reckoning. Is that what you mean?

NOTE: I hope we're understanding one another and not simply 'ships passing in the night' (vague Barry Manilow reference, that is, unless you're already massive Manilow fan). ; )

Edited May 15, 2023 by Vanguard