A Door That Swings Both Ways

[RAD DAD]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

So?  The comment he made about nonChristian living etc was relative to exaltation. Just because a talk is about repentance, doesn’t mean each point can only relate to repentance. 
 

The point of repentance is to get us to exaltation, but repentance alone will not get us there. That is why nonmembers can repent just as much as members, but still need all the principles of the gospel to be taught to them before being ready to receive exaltation. 

Let's say a non member wants to get baptized and when he goes in to the bishops office and has his interview, the bishop ask if he's ever committed sin. The guy says, yeah, but don't worry, bishop, I have fully repented of those sins and a feel I have been fully forgiven! God has let me know this to be true! Is the bishop going to say, GREAT!! Let's not discuss repentance anymore since you feel like you have been forgiven, or is it more likely the bishop will say, sir, you need to tell me what you're talking about so I can be the judge of that.

Edited May 14, 2023 by RAD DAD

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

That person is in spirit prison because he was a un repentant sinner. Atleast that's what the church teaches.

No, it isn’t.

[RAD DAD]

1 minute ago, manol said:

Thanks for stating your beliefs.

I mostly agree with you (personally, I'm not sure that "being tested" is what mortality is all about.)

How did you come to these conclusions, if you don't mind? 

I don't think we're being tested. I think we're here to stand back and watch all the crap go down and show we're not so scared to die that we start partaking in the circus. I think God wants us not to fear death.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Let's say a non member wants to get baptized and when he goes in to the bishops office and has his interview, the bishop ask if he's ever committed sin. The guy says, yeah, but don't worry, bishop, I have fully repented of those sins and a feel I have been fully forgiven! God has let me know this to be true! Is the bishop going to say, GREAT!! Let's not discuss repentance anymore since you feel like you have been forgiven, or is it more likely the bishop will say, sir, you need to tell me what you're talking about so I can be the judge of that.

Why would repentance and confession be different for a nonmember than a member?

From the Church Handbook:

Quote

Most repentance takes place between an individual, God, and those who have been affected by a person’s sins. However, sometimes a bishop or stake president needs to help Church members in their efforts to repent.

Which is more likely, the Handbook misrepresenting church doctrine or you?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/32-repentance-and-membership-councils?lang=eng

Before I was baptized, the bishop taught about repentance and baptism and then asked if I had repented of sins I knew of iirc.  I said yes. He asked if I needed to tell him anything, I said no.  He asked me if I was ready for baptism, I said yes.  And that was it.

Since then I have never needed to confess a sin to my bishop though I have sinned and repented plenty.  My bishops and stake presidents never hesitate to give me a temple recommend when I state I have repented or if I say I am still a work in progress, still trying.  They have never stated “let me know what you are talking about so I can judge”.

Are you suggesting I didn’t truly repent of those sins?  Or the dozen or two of priesthood leaders who have interviewed me in my lifetime were all doing it wrong?

Why would it be different for anyone else approaching baptism?  Or temple recommends?

Edited May 14, 2023 by Calm

[InCognitus]

23 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

By your logic, if I commit sin and feel the need to confess, I can go to a Baptist minister to confess and God will accept my confession?

Mike, you are dodging the question, and not providing anything that backs up your claims. 

38 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

48 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

As far as repentance goes. I don't think LDS church teachings suggest a non member can be forgiven of sin unless they repent to a common judge of Israel, a bishop. 

Please provide a source where LDS doctrine says this for non-members.

I'm going to ask this again, but this time it's a CFR (read the board rules - although you'll likely be banned anyway).  Provide an official LDS source that says non-members (i.e. not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not seeking to join the church) need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent of their sins.

And don't say "that video", you've already tried that.  I watched the video.  It doesn't say what you claim.

[manol]

3 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

I don't think we're being tested. I think we're here to stand back and watch all the crap go down and show we're not so scared to die that we start partaking in the circus. I think God wants us not to fear death.

I think one of the things we are here to do is, to bring as much light as we can in the moment into whatever situation we find ourselves in.  I don't think God wants us to fear death or anything else for that matter.  

[RAD DAD]

6 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Mike, you are dodging the question, and not providing anything that backs up your claims. 

I'm going to ask this again, but this time it's a CFR (read the board rules - although you'll likely be banned anyway).  Provide an official LDS source that says non-members (i.e. not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not seeking to join the church) need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent of their sins.

And don't say "that video", you've already tried that.  I watched the video.  It doesn't say what you claim.

I provided an apostle of God giving a talk on repentance and in his talk he said point blank that only a man who holds the priesthood can perform certain ordinances and functions that will be acceptable to God, that included baptism. 

I'm starting to think you're unable to understand what dalin oaks was trying to convey to the missionaries he was talking to. Again, the first word in the title of the talk is REPENTANCE! Your cfr is an apostle of God, boom!

Edited May 14, 2023 by RAD DAD

[Navidad]

I am not exactly sure what this is all about. I can say with certainty (rare for me) that I have never thought I needed to go to a person to repent and obtain forgiveness of sin. Why would I go to my friend the local Catholic priest or my friend the local LDS bishop, or a Mennonite bishop when I can go to Christ directly to repent and receive forgiveness of my sin? No priest from any church at any time can intercept my communication with my savior. He is after all, the only High Priest, is He not?

[RAD DAD]

1 minute ago, Navidad said:

I am not exactly sure what this is all about. I can say with certainty (rare for me) that I have never thought I needed to go to a person to repent and obtain forgiveness of sin. Why would I go to my friend the local Catholic priest or my friend the local LDS bishop, or a Mennonite bishop when I can go to Christ directly to repent and receive forgiveness of my sin? No priest from any church at any time can intercept my communication with my savior. He is after all, the only High Priest, is He not?

Well then, according to our doctrine, if you want to live with god again and you don't repent here on earth, you'll have to repent in spirit prison and then accept the gospel before you can leave prison.

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

you don't repent here on earth

Keywords being “don’t repent here on earth”.  If he has repented of certain sins and God has forgiven them, it is nonsense to say he has to repent of them again.

Everyone has to repent of any sins they don’t repent of here on earth when they get to the next stage.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Calm

[RAD DAD]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Keywords being “don’t repent here on earth”.  If he has repented of certain sins and God has forgiven them, it is nonsense to say he has to repent of them again.

So you say! But if Navidad has been baptized into a Christian church, does he have to be rebaptized while waiting in spirit prison? Because we believe a Christian baptism isn't a real baptism that God will accept,  correct?

Edited May 14, 2023 by RAD DAD

[RAD DAD]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Keywords being “don’t repent here on earth”.  If he has repented of certain sins and God has forgiven them, it is nonsense to say he has to repent of them again.

So if I went in to a bishop interview and I told my bishop that I had sinned numerous times since my last interview but everything is OK because I took care of it with God directly, would the bishop say, GREAT, NO WORRIES, let's not discuss that any further. 

You and I both know that would not happen. 

[RAD DAD]

26 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I am not exactly sure what this is all about. I can say with certainty (rare for me) that I have never thought I needed to go to a person to repent and obtain forgiveness of sin. Why would I go to my friend the local Catholic priest or my friend the local LDS bishop, or a Mennonite bishop when I can go to Christ directly to repent and receive forgiveness of my sin? No priest from any church at any time can intercept my communication with my savior. He is after all, the only High Priest, is He not?

Most youth in the LDS church feel like they need to confess sin to their bishop. Back when I was a teenager one of best friends couldn't stop, you know, "using his hand to do a certain sexual acts" to himself and went to the bishop almost weekly because how guilty he felt inside.  He almost killed himself over the guilt. The bishop or ine of the bishop councilors would call him a couple times a week to check on him they were so worried about him. 

Some guys went to the bishop to confess that they felt as if they were staring at a girl's boobs for too long. 

 

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

So you say! But if Navidad has been baptized into a Christian church, does he have to be rebaptized while waiting in spirit prison? Because we believe a Christian baptism isn't a real baptism that God will accept,  correct?

From what Navidad has said, he sees the purpose of baptism differently than we do, so we are calling in his case, imo, two different things by the same name.  It is hardly surprising that which he has labeled his baptism doesn’t fulfill the purpose of what we have labeled baptism when we see our baptisms as different actions.

Even our church has had different kinds of baptisms over the years (in the past they were used for healing or for a show of recommitment), but they were still under the baptismal covenant whether or not they had additional baptisms.  The additional baptisms did not replace the initial baptism into the Church.
 

Just because Navidad’s baptism is different, doesn’t mean it isn’t “real”.  It’s reality is whether or not it fulfills its intended purpose.  That would depend on what its purpose is. I see no reason for God not to accept a baptism outside the church for the expression of faith that it is just as he would accept a prayer.  

Baptisms outside the faith cannot serve as our covenantal baptisms, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t “real”.

Best to be specific in what we require and why so there is no confusion.  Navidad would not be “rebaptized” in the sense of having a second ‘specific to our baptism covenant’ baptism because he has never made that covenant before.

We believe to make the baptismal covenant required by God through the act of baptism one must have a baptism done in the correct way, for the correct purpose, and the ordinance needs to be performed by one holding the priesthood authority given by God.

But even that doesn’t mean he can’t repent of sins prior to being baptized in our specific baptismal covenant.  Repentance is not defined by God as an ordinance that can only be performed by one given God’s priesthood authority.

Again changing the subject.

Repentance is not baptism.  You made a claim about repentance. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Most youth in the LDS church feel like they need to confess sin to their bishop.

CFR that just because some feel they need to confess sin that means all have to confess sin to repent.

The Handbook says that isn’t true.

You keep ignoring the church publications that are contradicting you, keep changing the subject.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

So if I went in to a bishop interview and I told my bishop that I had sinned numerous times since my last interview but everything is OK because I took care of it with God directly, would the bishop say, GREAT, NO WORRIES, let's not discuss that any further. 

You and I both know that would not happen. 

That would greatly depend on your manner and probably what he knows of you overall.

And you keep dancing around off topic.  Simply because some sins must be confessed doesn’t mean all sins must be for true repentance to take place.  The Handbooks say repentance does not require confession in all cases, only some.  Deal with the Handbook.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Calm

[RAD DAD]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

From what Navidad has said, he sees the purpose of baptism differently than we do, so we are calling in his case, imo, two different things by the same name.  It is hardly surprising that which he has labeled his baptism doesn’t fulfill the purpose of what we have labeled baptism when we see our baptisms as different actions

According to church doctrine it doesn't matter how he sees baptism,  just because he sees baptism differently doesn't mean he gets to live with God in the celestial kingdom, correct? If he wants to live with God, eventually he'll have to accept the gospel and also fully repent, either here or in spirit prison. According to church doctrine, his baptism doesn't get him back to God.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, RAD DAD said:

provided an apostle of God giving a talk on repentance and in his talk he said point blank that only a man who holds the priesthood can perform certain ordinances and functions that will be acceptable to God, that included baptism. 

Right.  But repentance is not an ordinance.  Repentance is not the same thing as baptism.  Don’t change the subject.  It’s repentance, not baptism.

[manol]

7 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

What am I to think if I have been taught that all who don't accept the gospel here on earth will end up in a place called spirit prison after death?

 

4 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

So how does a non member repent for their "serious" sins? They can't, correct?

 

1 hour ago, RAD DAD said:

If we or non members want to live with God after we die, repenting to a priesthood leader, either here on earth or in spirit prison will have to be done.

 

1 hour ago, RAD DAD said:

He said good Christian living can not do it! Which means if you want to live with God someday, you will have to repent and accept the Gospel either here on earth or in spirit paradise. And it will have to be done infront of a priesthood leader.

 

27 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Most youth in the LDS church feel like they need to confess sin to their bishop. Back when I was a teenager one of best friends couldn't stop, you know, "using his hand to do a certain sexual acts" to himself and went to the bishop almost weekly because how guilty he felt inside.  He almost killed himself over the guilt. The bishop or ine of the bishop councilors would call him a couple times a week to check on him they were so worried about him. 

Some guys went to the bishop to confess that they felt as if they were staring at a girl's boobs for too long.

 

And for context, RAD DAD's belief about repentance: 

 

1 hour ago, RAD DAD said:

I think repentance is done between you and God. No need for a priesthood leader, ever. 

 

@RAD DAD, I have a really RAD idea:

What if you simply let go of all your grievances against the LDS Church?  What if you decide that your collection of grievances offers you nothing of value? 

What if you realize that the price of treasuring our grievances is our happiness, regardless of how justified those grievances may be?  What if you decide to no longer value the valueless?

What if, when you set aside your grievances, one of the side effects is that you are letting in more Light?  

Edited May 14, 2023 by manol

[Calm]

1 minute ago, RAD DAD said:

According to church doctrine it doesn't matter how he sees baptism,  just because he sees baptism differently doesn't mean he gets to live with God in the celestial kingdom, correct? If he wants to live with God, eventually he'll have to accept the gospel and also fully repent, either here or in spirit prison. According to church doctrine, his baptism doesn't get him back to God.

I am not going to talk about baptism anymore because it appears you are using that to avoid dealing with something different, repentance.

[RAD DAD]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

That would greatly depend on your manner and probably what he knows of you overall.

And you keep dancing around off topic.  Simply because some sins must be confessed doesn’t mean all sins must be for true repentance to take place.  The Handbooks say repentance does not require confession in all cases, only some.  Deal with the Handbook.

If a 14 year old boy sits in sacrement week after week staring at a girl's boobs to the point he becomes obsessed, who determines if that's enough "sin" he needs to confess to the bishop?

[RAD DAD]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I am not going to talk about baptism anymore because it appears you are using that to avoid dealing with something different, repentance.

They go hand in hand 

[RAD DAD]

6 minutes ago, manol said:

 

 

 

 

 

And for context, RAD DAD's belief about repentance: 

 

 

@RAD DAD, I have a really RAD idea:

What if you simply let go of all your grievances against the LDS Church?  What if you decided that your collection of grievances offered you nothing of value? 

What if you realized that the price of treasuring our grievances is our happiness, regardless of how justified those grievances may be?  What if you decided to no longer value the valueless?

What if, when you set aside your grievances, one of the side effects is that you are letting in more Light?  

What if we let go of all our grievances against Christianity? What if we stopped trying to convert Christians to the LDS faith? Why do we keep trying to convert Christians to the LDS faith if we see them as Christians? Why not let them be? 

 

The number one reason we keep trying to convert Christians to the LDS faith is because they have no priesthood authority which means they cannot deal with and have sin forgiven like we can in the LDS faith, atleast that's what we're taught. 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by RAD DAD

[Calm]

Just now, RAD DAD said:

If a 14 year old boy sits in sacrement week after week staring at a girl's boobs to the point he becomes obsessed, who determines if that's enough "sin" he needs to confess to the bishop?

What does that have to do with your following claim?  You are attempting to reason from a specific case (a member with an obsession) to the general rule of repentance.  That is a fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition

Quote

There's only one way to truly and fully repent on this earth and that's to sit down in front of a worthy priesthood holder so to  repent, and those priesthood holders are only found within our church

Handbook:

Quote

Most repentance takes place between an individual, God, and those who have been affected by a person’s sins. However, sometimes a bishop or stake president needs to help Church members in their efforts to repent.

 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

They go hand in hand 

Some of the time, but they can certainly occur without each other.

And they are not identical. A valid argument for one doesn’t prove a similar argument about the other is also valid.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Calm