A Door That Swings Both Ways

[RAD DAD]

Just now, Calm said:

I don’t do videos as in the end it is only worthwhile if you write the speech out to double-check you are both hearing the same thing. If it is such a common teaching, you will be able to find it in writing as I have done my position above. 

I did write it out, look through my post in the past hour or so.

[Calm]

In your video Pres Oaks is talking about exaltation, not true repentance. 

Exaltation requires faith, repentance, baptism, and Gift of the Holy Ghost and temple ordinances. 
 

He is not focusing on repentance from what I am hearing. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Calm

[RAD DAD]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes. Just like there is a church of the Firstborn. But neither exists as a specific denomination on the earth.

The article is very good if you are interested in reading it. 

Here's a few screenshots explaining who belongs to the church of the first born. Not even some members of our faith will be members. Are you telling me you think non members can be members if the church of the first born without joining our church?

 

[RAD DAD]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

In your video Pres Oaks is talking about exaltation, not true repentance. 

Exaltation requires faith, repentance, baptism, and Gift of the Holy Ghost. 

Nope. The title of the talk is, Teaching Repentance and Baptizing Converts! He point blank says only a man who holds the priesthood can sit in judgement. 

Are you trying to say a Baptist minister or catholic priest can sit in judgement like a LDS bishop does?

[Calm]

1 minute ago, RAD DAD said:

Nope. The title of the talk is, Teaching Repentance and Baptizing Converts! He point blank says only a man who holds the priesthood can sit in judgement. 

Are you trying to say a Baptist minister or catholic priest can sit in judgement like a LDS bishop does?

That is why I insist on it in writing. He says “exaltation”, he says “ultimate merits”.  He does not say “true repentance”.  
 

I am saying true repentance needs God sitting in judgment, only sometimes is a priesthood leader needed to be part of the confessing.

You are confusing events imo, judgment of righteousness for receiving one’s destination in heaven is not identical to the day to day repentance process. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Calm

[RAD DAD]

45 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Perhaps you are misunderstanding the repentance process.  There are some sins, the more grievous ones, that a member of the church would need to confess, but not every sin.  Sincere repentance through prayer and then worthily partaking of the sacrament is the process for most.

I understand and agree. But in the LDS view, how does a non member repent of there serious sins?

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

I understand and agree. But in the LDS view, how does a non member repent of there serious sins?

He can go to God and God forgives him and helps him forsake the sin. Or he goes to the person he sinned against and asks their forgiveness as well and still forsakes his sin whether they forgive him or not. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Calm

[RAD DAD]

Just now, Calm said:

He can go to God and God forgives him. 

That's not possible. If so he wouldn't have to repent and accept the gospel in spirit prison. 

 

[manol]

13 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Nothing wrong with non mormons.

I agree.

9 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Not even some members of our faith will be members.  

You present yourself as a member of the LDS Church, you say that in your opinion there is nothing wrong with non-Mormons, but this entire thread seems to me to be an attempt to point out an "anti-non-Mormon" stance on the part of the LDS Church.

To me this does not add up, so I assume there is a critical missing puzzle piece.

Can you just come right out and tell us plainly what the point is that you're trying to make?

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, RAD DAD said:

Dalin Oaks.

Start at the 13 minute mark and let the apostle of God explain it to you.

Mike, you didn't answer my question.  What are the first principles of the gospel, and what order do they come?

And did you watch the entire video, or just at the 13 minute mark and take him out of context?   Start listening at the 9:30 mark.  He explains the principles of the gospel and the order that they come.  And FYI, Dallin Oaks directly contradicts your claim in that video.

As Calm said, Elder Oaks is not talking about "true repentance" (like you are doing), he's talking about exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom.

Edited May 13, 2023 by InCognitus

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

That's not possible. If so he wouldn't have to repent and accept the gospel in spirit prison. 

 

You are confusing things. In order to progress to exaltation, one must learn all the principles of the gospel, members in this life and nonmembers. Even with members, it seems it will take some time after death according to Joseph Smith to learn all the principles, so everyone is going to spirit prison in that sense where we will all have the opportunity to accept all godly principles and not just the ones we were taught in mortality. 

But that is not “true repentance”.

Do you really believe a person born in 1300 AD who cheated on their spouse could recognize the wrong they had done, have remorse for committing that sin, go to their spouse and ask for forgiveness and work hard to restore the trust they had lost, etc, and commit themselves to never cheating again, to becoming a better person who would not be tempted to cheat and became that person in the years following and yet they couldn’t be said to have truly repented because they didn’t confess to their nonexistent bishop?

Were they not capable of having a change of heart, mind, and soul?  Forsaking the natural man?  If they can do so, how would that not be true repentance?

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Calm

[RAD DAD]

11 minutes ago, manol said:

I agree.

You present yourself as a member of the LDS Church, you say that in your opinion there is nothing wrong with non-Mormons, but this entire thread seems to me to be an attempt to point out an "anti-non-Mormon" stance on the part of the LDS Church.

To me this does not add up, so I assume there is a critical missing puzzle piece.

Can you just come right out and tell us plainly what the point is that you're trying to make?

The point I am trying to make is, i think if there is a devil, then he is working with god to tempt us here on earth, that was the point of the thread. 

As far as repentance goes. I don't think LDS church teachings suggest a non member can be forgiven of sin unless they repent to a common judge of Israel, a bishop. 

 

[RAD DAD]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you really believe a person born in 1300 AD who cheated on their spouse could recognize the wrong they had done, have remorse for committing that sin, go to their spouse and ask for forgiveness and work hard to restore the trust they had lost, etc, and commit themselves to never cheating again, to becoming a better person who would not be tempted to cheat and became that person in the years following and yet they couldn’t be said to have truly repented because they didn’t confess to their nonexistent bishop?

Yes. That's what our church teaches. That's why we do genealogy. That person is in spirit prison because he was a un repentant sinner. Atleast that's what the church teaches.

 

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Were they not capable of having a change of heart, mind, and soul?  Forsaking the natural man?  If they can do so, how would that not be true repentance

According to church doctrine that person will have to confess of the sins while in spirit prison. 

[InCognitus]

10 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

As far as repentance goes. I don't think LDS church teachings suggest a non member can be forgiven of sin unless they repent to a common judge of Israel, a bishop. 

Please provide a source where LDS doctrine says this for non-members.

Edited May 13, 2023 by InCognitus

[RAD DAD]

2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Please provide a source where LDS doctrine says this for non-members.

I did, its in the video. Repentance is the reason for the talk he gave, that's why the first word in the title of the talk is REPENTANCE! The reason we have mission program is so gods children can repent and be baptized! If we or non members want to live with God after we die, repenting to a priesthood leader, either here on earth or in spirit prison will have to be done. 

 

[InCognitus]

4 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

I did, its in the video. Repentance is the reason for the talk he gave, that's why the first word in the title of the talk is REPENTANCE! The reason we have mission program is so gods children can repent and be baptized! If we or non members want to live with God after we die, repenting to a priesthood leader, either here on earth or in spirit prison will have to be done. 

 No, you didn't.  The video is talking about exaltation, and there is no mention in the video of a non-member, not seeking to join the church, needing to talk to a bishop in order to repent.

Did you watch the entire video, or did you just start at the 13 minute mark?  And you still didn't answer my question, can you tell me what are the first principles of the gospel in order?

Edited May 13, 2023 by InCognitus

[RAD DAD]

12 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Please provide a source where LDS doctrine says this for non-members.

By your logic, if I commit sin and feel the need to confess, I can go to a Baptist minister to confess and God will accept my confession?

[RAD DAD]

2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

No, you didn't.  The video is talking about exaltation, and there is no mention in the video of a non-member, not seeking to join the church, needing to talk to a bishop in order to repent

🤔 the whole point of the mission program is to bring people to repentance and be baptized! That's what the talk was about!

[manol]

33 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

The point I am trying to make is, i think if there is a devil, then he is working with god to tempt us here on earth, that was the point of the thread.

What do YOU believe?   Do you believe there is a devil?  Do you believe the scenario you describe in your opening post IS the way things really are?

33 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

As far as repentance goes. I don't think LDS church teachings suggest a non member can be forgiven of sin unless they repent to a common judge of Israel, a bishop.

What do YOU believe?  Not what do you think LDS church teachings are.  Do YOU believe a non-member can be forgiven without repenting to [sic] a bishop?

Edited May 13, 2023 by manol

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

The point I am trying to make is, i think if there is a devil, then he is working with god to tempt us here on earth, that was the point of the thread. 

As far as repentance goes. I don't think LDS church teachings suggest a non member can be forgiven of sin unless they repent to a common judge of Israel, a bishop. 

 

So ignoring what Elder Maxwell said?

Why am I not surprised. 

[RAD DAD]

1 minute ago, manol said:

What do YOU believe? 

What do YOU believe? 

If there is a God and a devil, they're working together in perfect harmony to create experiences for us here on earth so we can be tested. There's no other way that makes sense. 

 

I think repentance is done between you and God. No need for a priesthood leader, ever. 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

🤔 the whole point of the mission program is to bring people to repentance and be baptized! That's what the talk was about!

So?  The comment he made about nonChristian living etc was relative to exaltation. Just because a talk is about repentance, doesn’t mean each point can only relate to repentance. 
 

The point of repentance is to get us to exaltation, but repentance alone will not get us there. That is why nonmembers can repent just as much as members, but still need all the principles of the gospel to be taught to them before being ready to receive exaltation. 

[RAD DAD]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

So ignoring what Elder Maxwell said?

Why am I not surprised. 

You're ignoring what dallin oaks said. 

He said good Christian living can not do it! Which means if you want to live with God someday, you will have to repent and accept the Gospel either here on earth or in spirit paradise. And it will have to be done infront of a priesthood leader.

[RAD DAD]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

So?  The comment he made about nonChristian living etc was relative to exaltation. Just because a talk is about repentance, doesn’t mean each point can only relate to repentance. 
 

The point of repentance is to get us to exaltation, but repentance alone will not get us there. That is why nonmembers can repent just as much as members, but still need all the principles of the gospel to be taught to them before being ready to receive exaltation. 

Does a non LDS baptism count in the eyes of God? Does a non LDS sacrament count in the eyes of God? 

[manol]

16 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

If there is a God and a devil, they're working together in perfect harmony to create experiences for us here on earth so we can be tested. There's no other way that makes sense

I think repentance is done between you and God. No need for a priesthood leader, ever. 

Thanks for stating your beliefs.

I mostly agree with you (personally, I'm not sure that "being tested" is what mortality is all about.)

How did you come to these conclusions, if you don't mind? 

Edited May 14, 2023 by manol