A Door That Swings Both Ways

[Navidad]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

This is nothing new.  Like much else, Daybell is likely borrowing his ideas from apostates before him.  His only creativity imo came from incorporating D&D terminology (or probably his idea of what such would be) into his twisted fantasy (light and dark scales, death percentages, zombies, trustworthiness scale, etc).  But this is a man who was claiming Harry Potter spells were real.

It seems somewhat common for apostate groups to identify this way.  My guess is because it gives them justification to abandon the Church’s structure and assume they have higher authority. 

There are two different Church of the Firstborn Mormon groups within an hour and fifteen minutes of where I am keyboarding this. I can think of at least four meeting houses where they gather. I would love to go visit a couple of them in the next few months. Normally their leaders have told me they don't have many visitors, but they assured me I would be welcome. I would love to have some real live data on how many Mormon organized groups really no kidding exist in the world today. I read various numbers in the range of from 40 to 400. Certainly it can be narrowed down tighter than that! Sorry, don't want to get the thread off track.

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

LDS doctrine specifically claims that the Bible does not contain the fullness of the Gospel, it is explicitly not enough.

I am not sure I know of anyone who claims that the Bible contains the fullness of the Gospel. That is a pretty complicated concept. I can't think of anyone I know in any Christian faith who doesn't believe in both general and special revelation and who doesn't pray for God to reveal His will to them beyond that which is found in the Bible. There certainly are those who would say that the Bible is the only gospel that God has seen fit to provide to all of Christianity in one book, in one canon and there is no other canon. Of course, then there are creeds - individual groups' interpretations of what the Bible says. Then we get into which books, how many books, and which translations. The Bible I normally use has 1804 pages including concordance, notes, and excluding maps. I once wrote a book with about 700 pages in it. That certainly was not the fullness of all that can be known on the subject (religion in Mexico). There is much more to know about the Gospel that we won't know on this side of the veil. Very complex subject!

[Navidad]

5 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

So when I stopped posting last night it was because I was at dinner with a few friends, LDS and non LDS. One of my Non LDS friends made a great point about you asking to concentrate on the LDS handbook. He said to a true Christian, all they need is the Bible, that's their handbook. But you keep pushing the LDS handbook, he wants to know why the Bible isn't enough for you? Would you mind explaining why the Bible isn't sufficient for you to understand what God is teaching? I mean, you are Christian,  correct?

Next time you are at dinner with him, ask him if he ever seeks God's will for anything in his life? Ask him if he prayed about who he "should" marry? Ask him if he ever sought God's will (another word for revelation) about a job offer, a major decision in his life. Ask him if he ever felt the closeness and presence of the Savior teaching and ministering to him while he was somewhere without his Bible? I could go on and on.

[Navidad]

6 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

LDS call it Bishop roulette.  

I have never heard that term before. I am not LDS, but, regretably can certainly relate to that. But my faith has covenants against gambling, so I don't think I will use that term!

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I don't see how a local bishop can even begin to take that burden on himself, especially if he has some cognizance of his own shortcomings.

I realize you do not believe the following, I am writing my personal belief and including links to views published by the Church for context….

He couldn’t and shouldn’t. A bishop doesn’t take the burden on himself.

They are called to the work and accept that burden along with others as part of their calling.  They are not carrying their burdens by themselves. What is often referred to as “the mantle” is what sustains them in all areas of their calling.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1985/04/the-mantle-of-a-bishop?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/viewpoint-bishops-are-divinely-called?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2018/10/what-every-bishop-wants-his-ward-members-to-know?lang=eng

Anyone who takes on that role themselves is doing so inappropriately.  Anyone who thinks they could do the work without the active support of the Spirit is foolish.

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I am trying to think of a place in the New Testament that suggests that there are positions such as judges in the New Testament church.

It is not an topic I immerse myself in so relevant scriptures pop into my head, but as far as I know we based this belief of the role of a bishop on modern scripture and revelation, especially this one…

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/58?lang=eng&id=17#p17

Quote

17 And whoso standeth in this mission is appointed to be a judge in Israel, like as it was in ancient days, to divide the lands of the heritage of God unto his children;

18 And to judge his people by the testimony of the just, and by the assistance of his counselors, according to the laws of the kingdom which are given by the prophets of God.

19 For verily I say unto you, my law shall be kept on this land.

20 Let no man think he is ruler; but let God rule him that judgeth, according to the counsel of his own will, or, in other words, him that counseleth or sitteth upon the judgment seat.

And this one…

Quote

72 And also to be a judge in Israel, to do the business of the church, to sit in judgment upon transgressors upon testimony as it shall be laid before him according to the laws, by the assistance of his counselors, whom he has chosen or will choose among the elders of the church.

74 Thus shall he be a judge, even a common judge among the inhabitants of Zion, or in a stake of Zion, or in any branch of the church where he shall be set apart unto this ministry, until the borders of Zion are enlarged and it becomes necessary to have other bishops or judges in Zion or elsewhere.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/107?lang=eng&id=72,74#p72

Maybe someone else will be able to provide context for the NT.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Calm

[Navidad]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

I realize you do not believe the following, I am writing my personal belief and including links to views published by the Church for context….

He couldn’t and shouldn’t. A bishop doesn’t take the burden on himself.

They are called to the work and accept that burden along with others as part of their calling.  They are not carrying their burdens by themselves. What is often referred to as “the mantle” is what sustains them in all areas of their calling.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1985/04/the-mantle-of-a-bishop?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/viewpoint-bishops-are-divinely-called?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2018/10/what-every-bishop-wants-his-ward-members-to-know?lang=eng

Anyone who takes on that role themselves is doing so inappropriately.  Anyone who thinks they could do the work without the active support of the Spirit is foolish.

 

Hi Calm: I believe everything I read in each of your three sources. I also believe everything you said. I strongly believe in the metaphor of the mantle. I would only suggest, after wearing it for years, it is probably more like a heavy yoke than a mantle. But that is simply a difference in metaphor. I absolutely believe in God working through people - LDS, Mennonite, Catholic, or Pentecostal people, especially those called to leadership. Maybe in my previous comment I was reacting to the idea of "judge." That seems, well that seems judgmental to me.

I do like the metaphor of shepherd for the bishop. I would never make a very good member of the LDS Church. I just can't get my head around the idea of the being motivated and passionate about having the correct beliefs as proscribed by an organization. I am much more all about having intense trust with a person, in this case Christ. My wife and I were sharing yesterday in our daily share time that neither of us could ever remember a sacrament testimony where someone talked about their relationship with Christ, what that means to them, and how that has changed their life.

That this or that is true is a statement about a correct belief, not a relationship with a person. Perhaps that is why I so appreciated our bishop from before. I had a relationship with him . . . a close relationship so that I miss him terribly (he has moved away). Christianity is a faith about the relationship between God and humans - not about maintaining or stressing about maintaining correct beliefs. Thanks for your kindness to me. I appreciate it so.

 

[RAD DAD]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

You’re still dodging.  The fact is that this is our official guidelines and practice - like it or not.   You can argue that it is wrong, but you can’t argue that we don’t actually follow the handbook as a general rule (which you seemed to be arguing).  Now you are changing the argument…again

You need to tell me what serious sin is to a 12 to 18 year old. Do they all see it as you do? How many teenagers follow what's in the handbook🤔? No teenager I know cares about what's in the handbook. 

Is stealing a pack of gum a sin that needs to be confessed to the bishop?

 

If a young man goes to the pool so he can stare at the girls in bikinis, is that a sin serious enough to confess to the bishop?

Edited May 14, 2023 by RAD DAD

[The Nehor]

19 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

You need to tell me what serious sin is to a 12 to 18 year old. Do they all see it as you do? How many teenagers follow what's in the handbook🤔? No teenager I know cares about what's in the handbook. 

Is stealing a pack of gum a sin that needs to be confessed to the bishop?

 

If a young man goes to the pool so he can stare at the girls in bikinis, is that a sin serious enough to confess to the bishop?

You are a goober.

[RAD DAD]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

The only reason I have engaged in this discussion to this extent is to hopefully ensure nonmembers are not confused by your misrepresentations of church teachings.

Please tell the nonmembers on the board, how a teenager is supposed to know when to confess to the bishop. 

If he is going to a community pool to stare at girls for hours and hours, is that a sin, and should he confess to the bishop? Does your precious handbook of instructions tell him how to understand if that's a sin he needs to confess.

What if he steals a pack of gum? Does he need to confess? Is that a serious sin? 

Edited May 14, 2023 by RAD DAD

[MustardSeed]

8 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Does your precious handbook of instructions

This is pretty insulting.
 

It sounds as if you’ve been disillusioned. That’s completely understandable. Obviously, there’s no answer that is going to ease your mind here. Trying to confound other members is not going to make you feel better.

[InCognitus]

10 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Please tell the nonmembers on the board, how a teenager is supposed to know when to confess to the bishop. 

If he is going to a community pool to stare at girls for hours and hours, is that a sin, and should he confess to the bishop? Does your precious handbook of instructions tell him how to understand if that's a sin he needs to confess.

What if he steals a pack of gum? Does he need to confess? Is that a serious sin? 

For the Strength of Youth: A Guide for Making Choices:

Quote

When do I need the help of the bishop to repent? Your bishop holds priesthood keys and spiritual gifts to help you repent. You can seek his help and counsel at any time. If you have made serious mistakes, such as breaking the law of chastity, meet with your bishop. He won’t condemn you. He is a representative of Jesus Christ and will help you know how to fully repent and receive the Savior’s healing and strengthening power.

So, all of your other claims about needing to see a bishop to repent are false.

[InCognitus]

9 hours ago, RAD DAD said:

A CFR was provided to you. We're discussing that CFR now. 

Nope, that video didn't say that a non-member needed to see a bishop in order to repent, anywhere.   Try again.

Provide an official LDS source that says non-members (i.e. not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not seeking to join the church) need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent of their sins.

[CV75]

34 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Please tell the nonmembers on the board, how a teenager is supposed to know when to confess to the bishop. 

If he is going to a community pool to stare at girls for hours and hours, is that a sin, and should he confess to the bishop? Does your precious handbook of instructions tell him how to understand if that's a sin he needs to confess.

What if he steals a pack of gum? Does he need to confess? Is that a serious sin? 

The teenager is always welcome to confer with their bishop, and hopefully has other reliable people in their life. At the very least, they have a conscience, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost if baptized and confirmed. Then they can sort out what is serious or not.

Generally speaking, weaknesses and associated bad habits are not sins; temptations are definitely not sins; "sinful thoughts" and "sinful feelings" are not necessarily willful/insistent rebellion against God and can be managed with prayer and sometimes the help of parents, other family and friends. 

This is not about the need for clinical help. The role of priesthood leaders is pretty much summed up in 3 Nephi Chapters 11 and 12, and the Handbook takes it cues from that.

Edited May 14, 2023 by CV75

[RAD DAD]

28 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

This is pretty insulting.
 

It sounds as if you’ve been disillusioned. That’s completely understandable. Obviously, there’s no answer that is going to ease your mind here. Trying to confound other members is not going to make you feel better.

No one looks at the handbook of instructions to figure out if they need to repent. Most members don't even know there's a handbook of instructions. 

[RAD DAD]

Anyone willing to tell me if a young man steals a pack of gum, does he need to confess to the bishop? Is it a serious enough sin?

[MustardSeed]

26 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Anyone willing to tell me if a young man steals a pack of gum, does he need to confess to the bishop? Is it a serious enough sin?

I’ll bite.  No. 

[CV75]

26 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Anyone willing to tell me if a young man steals a pack of gum, does he need to confess to the bishop? Is it a serious enough sin?

Usually, children steal things long before young man age and are easily caught by their parents who teach them to return it, pay for it, and not to do it again. 13-year-olds stealing gum typically know better anyway; they may feel bad about it or not. if they did, I would say no need to seek out the bishop to confess proactively. But no one is going to stop him from asking if he wonders about it; better to feel like he can ask (the right person, hopefully) than not resolve uneasy feelings, questions, concerns, etc. He may bring it up in the course of an interview, no problem there, either. All children and youth need guidance along the way, some more specific and detailed -- and evidently later and longer -- than others.

[InCognitus]

33 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Anyone willing to tell me if a young man steals a pack of gum, does he need to confess to the bishop? Is it a serious enough sin?

Mike, the answer to that question is in my last post here. 

Now would you please answer the CFR?   Provide an official LDS source that says non-members (i.e. not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not seeking to join the church) need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent of their sins.

[RAD DAD]

54 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Mike, the answer to that question is in my last post here. 

Now would you please answer the CFR?   Provide an official LDS source that says non-members (i.e. not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not seeking to join the church) need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent of their sins.

So in the year 2023, you're saying a Baptist minister or catholic priest has been given the appropriate priesthood power and ordained a common judge in Israel like a LDS bishop? Is that what you are saying? If so, then a LDS bishop being a common judge in Israel really serves no purpose today if anyone can go to any Ecclesiastical leader they want to go to to confess and start the repentance prosses, correct? 

If I go out this coming weekend and get completely drunk, have sex with two hookers, then on my way home I drive drunk and purposely run over a momma cat and her 7 baby cats, can I go to a Baptist minister to confess my sins and start the repentance process instead of going to my LDS bishop? By your logic apparently I can.

[InCognitus]

4 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

So in the year 2023, you're saying a Baptist minister or catholic priest has been given the appropriate priesthood power and ordained a common judge in Israel like a LDS bishop? Is that what you are saying? If so, then a LDS bishop being a common judge in Israel really serves no purpose today if anyone can go to any Ecclesiastical leader they want to go to to confess and start the repentance prosses, correct? 

If I go out this coming weekend and get completely drunk, have sex with two hookers, then on my way home I drive drunk and purposely run over a momma cat and her 7 baby cats, can I go to a Baptist minister to confess my sins and start the repentance process instead of going to my LDS bishop? By your logic apparently I can.

You're still trying to dodge the CFR.  Hypothetical questions don't handle it.  You made the claim that non-members need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent.  Back up your claim.  Provide an official LDS source that says non-members (i.e. not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not seeking to join the church) need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent of their sins.

[RAD DAD]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

You're still trying to dodge the CFR.  Hypothetical questions don't handle it.  You made the claim that non-members need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent.  Back up your claim.  Provide an official LDS source that says non-members (i.e. not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not seeking to join the church) need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent of their sins.

It's not fault you are unable to comprehend what an apostle of God is trying to teach in the talk I provided as a CFR. I think Dallin Oaks would be very disappointed in you for not accepting him as my CFR. Let me explain this to you again even though you probably won't be able to accept it.

The talk is titled TEACHING REPENTANCE AND BAPTIZING CONVERTS. Why are missionaries taught to teach non members about repentance? Well he tells uou why around the 13 to 14 minute mark when he says no one else can do this, other churches can not do it, good Christian living can not do it. What he's trying to explain to the missionaries is true repentance and a true baptism, repentance and baptism that God  will accept because the two were overseen and performed by a priesthood holder. If a nonmember has the ability to repent without going through a common judge of Israel, then why can't a nonmember enter the celestial kingdom on a baptism that was performed by a Baptist minister or catholic priest? 

If a non member wants to move from spirit prison to spirit paradise, do they repent and accept the baptism performed for them in the temple? Why do they have to repent in spirit prison? 

Why don't you answer my question? If I go out next weekend and get drunk, have sex with two hookers, run over a bunch of cats on purpose while driving home drunk, can I go to a Baptist minister and repent instead of my bishop and God will accept that I'm fully repentant when the repentance process is over? 

And since repentance and baptism go hand in hand, does God accept a Baptist baptism as being sufficient to enter the celestial kingdom?

 

[InCognitus]

2 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

It's not fault you are unable to comprehend what an apostle of God is trying to teach in the talk I provided as a CFR

Mike, I comprehend him quite well, and he's not saying what you claim him to be saying.

3 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

The talk is titled TEACHING REPENTANCE AND BAPTIZING CONVERTS.

Yes.  So where in the video does he say that non-members need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent, as you claimed?

4 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Why are missionaries taught to teach non members about repentance?

Remember the first principles and ordinances of the gospel?  What are they?  And in what order do they come?

4 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Well he tells uou why around the 13 to 14 minute mark when he says no one else can do this, other churches can not do it, good Christian living can not do it.

And you know what he's talking about in the 13 to 14 minute mark?  Exaltation.  What does that have to do with the CFR where you claimed that non-members need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent?   I can answer that for you:  NOTHING!   You are misrepresenting him.

6 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

What he's trying to explain to the missionaries is true repentance and a true baptism, repentance and baptism that God  will accept because the two were overseen and performed by a priesthood holder.

No, he's explaining what is necessary for exaltation, not for what a non-member needs to do in order to repent.  Can you not see how you've twisted this up?  (Maybe not).

8 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

If a nonmember has the ability to repent without going through a common judge of Israel....

Not even Latter-day Saints are required to repent by going through a common judge in Israel except for the types of sins mentioned in my prior post here.   So why would any non-member need to do this for any reason?

12 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

then why can't a nonmember enter the celestial kingdom on a baptism that was performed by a Baptist minister or catholic priest?

What is required for exaltation is a different question than what a person needs to do in order to "repent".   Try again.

14 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

If a non member wants to move from spirit prison to spirit paradise, do they repent and accept the baptism performed for them in the temple? Why do they have to repent in spirit prison? 

This is completely irrelevant to the CFR.

16 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

Why don't you answer my question? If I go out next weekend and get drunk, have sex with two hookers, run over a bunch of cats on purpose while driving home drunk, can I go to a Baptist minister and repent instead of my bishop and God will accept that I'm fully repentant when the repentance process is over? 

You claimed to have left the church, so what you do outside the church is your own business.  And God will accept a truly repentant heart, inside or outside the church.  But your hypothetical example doesn't sound like someone who is really willing to repent.  It sounds more like what is called "cheap grace" to me.

20 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

And since repentance and baptism go hand in hand, does God accept a Baptist baptism as being sufficient to enter the celestial kingdom?

What is required for exaltation is not the same as what is required to repent.  This doesn't address the CFR.  

So you can't seem to answer the CFR.  You made the claim that non-members need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent.  Back up your claim.  Provide an official LDS source that says non-members (i.e. not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not seeking to join the church) need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent of their sins.

[RAD DAD]

4 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

you know what he's talking about in the 13 to 14 minute mark?  Exaltation.  What does that have to do with the CFR where you claimed that non-members need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent?   I can answer that for you:  NOTHING!   You are misrepresenting him

Nope not at all. I think your upset because he was brave enough to say men of other faiths can't do it, good Christian living can't do it, I think that upsets you.

 

6 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Not even Latter-day Saints are required to repent by going through a common judge in Israel except for the types of sins mentioned in my prior post here.   So why would any non-member need to do this for any reason?

🤣 ok, so what do nonmembers do with their "serious" sins? 

 

7 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

he's explaining what is necessary for exaltation, not for what a non-member needs to do in order to repent.  Can you not see how you've twisted this up?  (Maybe not

Nope, try again, I have faith in you.

 

9 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

you can't seem to answer the CFR.  You made the claim that non-members need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent.  Back up your claim.  Provide an official LDS source that says non-members (i.e. not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not seeking to join the church) need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent of their sins

I did and I'm calling Dallin Oaks tomorrow to tell him you don't believe what he was teaching the missionaries in the talk I provided in my CFR. You might want to stay by your phone incase he calls you.

[InCognitus]

8 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

19 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

you know what he's talking about in the 13 to 14 minute mark?  Exaltation.  What does that have to do with the CFR where you claimed that non-members need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent?   I can answer that for you:  NOTHING!   You are misrepresenting him

Nope not at all.

If you are not misrepresenting him, then show me where he says that non-members need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent in the 13 to 14 minute mark, or anywhere else in the video for that matter.  He's talking about exaltation in the 13 to 14 minute mark, not what is required for non-members to repent.

10 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

I think your upset because he was brave enough to say men of other faiths can't do it, good Christian living can't do it, I think that upsets you.

I used all caps for emphasis, and now you're gaslighting by trying to ascribe emotions to my response, clearly in an attempt at manipulating what I said.  That's also the ad-hominem fallacy.  

14 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

25 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Not even Latter-day Saints are required to repent by going through a common judge in Israel except for the types of sins mentioned in my prior post here.   So why would any non-member need to do this for any reason?

🤣 ok, so what do nonmembers do with their "serious" sins? 

Go to a Catholic priest, they have confession booths.

15 minutes ago, RAD DAD said:

I did and I'm calling Dallin Oaks tomorrow to tell him you don't believe what he was teaching the missionaries in the talk I provided in my CFR. You might want to stay by your phone incase he calls you.

Another dodge.  So again, you can't seem to answer the CFR.  Remember, you made the claim that non-members need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent.  Back up your claim.  Provide an official LDS source that says non-members (i.e. not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not seeking to join the church) need to go to a LDS bishop in order to repent of their sins.