RAD DAD Posted May 13, 2023 Author Posted May 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Here's a good way to repent that did not originate with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I think the repentance of anyone (and of anyone) who uses this method is just as acceptable to God as the repentance of anyone inside the Church of Jesus Christ is. Incidentally, the Church of Jesus Christ uses these steps as well in its Addiction Recovery Program, with slight modifications, such as modifying #12 to read as follows: "Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, share this message with others and practice these principles in all you do." A participant in the program with whom I am acquainted called the Latter-day Saint Addiction Recovery [12 Step] Program, aptly, I think, a course in how to repent. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/addiction-recovery-program-a-guide-to-addiction-recovery-and-healing?lang=eng If a person can repent without being judged by a LDS bishop/common judge in Israel, then you just made an argument for doing away with the entire mission program. The number one reason for the mission program is to teach people about the church so the can repent, correct?
Kenngo1969 Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, RAD DAD said: If a person can repent without being judged by a LDS bishop/common judge in Israel, then you just made an argument for doing away with the entire mission program. The number one reason for the mission program is to teach people about the church so the can repent, correct? I don't answer "Gotcha!" questions, and, while you may be attempting to engage your interlocutors in good faith, I'm not getting that feeling, either, so I'm out. I hope you have a very pleasant good evening and afternoon.
InCognitus Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, RAD DAD said: If a person can repent without being judged by a LDS bishop/common judge in Israel, then you just made an argument for doing away with the entire mission program. The number one reason for the mission program is to teach people about the church so the can repent, correct? Mike, the only reason a member of the church would need to talk to a bishop to repent is for more serious sins, and it is only because they have made baptismal or temple covenants with God. Those who have not made covenants with God (non-members) may repent to the extent they are able to do so, and in fact they are asked to repent as part of the process of joining the church through the missionary program. We may forgive people for their sins (we are asked to forgive everyone), but only Jesus can judge as to when or whether someone is forgiven. "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." (Doctrine and Covenants 64:10) 1
RAD DAD Posted May 13, 2023 Author Posted May 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, InCognitus said: Those who have not made covenants with God (non-members) may repent to the extent they are able to do so. So how does a non member repent for their "serious" sins? They can't, correct? Not without joining the church. Atleast that's what I was taught. Isn't that why we have a mission program?
RAD DAD Posted May 13, 2023 Author Posted May 13, 2023 22 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Gotcha!" questions, ?
Kenngo1969 Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 @RAD DAD (perhaps that should be restyled "Rad(?) Dad"?) I've never heard it said by anyone in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (I would ask you to find a reference, but I'm not fond of asking people to chase their tails by doing the impossible) that repentance is possible only within the Church of Jesus Christ. If that were true, then no one ever would join the Church, since repentance is one of the first four principles and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Kenngo1969 Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 34 minutes ago, RAD DAD said: If a person can repent without being judged by a LDS bishop/common judge in Israel, then you just made an argument for doing away with the entire mission program. The number one reason for the mission program is to teach people about the church so the can repent, correct? 30 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: I don't answer "Gotcha!" questions, and, while you may be attempting to engage your interlocutors in good faith, I'm not getting that feeling, either, so I'm out. I hope you have a very pleasant good evening and afternoon. 7 minutes ago, RAD DAD said: ? Right, I don't think you're posing your questions in good faith, and I note your conspicuous silence to that part of my response to you.
RAD DAD Posted May 13, 2023 Author Posted May 13, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Right, I don't think you're posing your questions in good faith, and I note your conspicuous silence to that part of my response to you. Well, you're not making any sense, I don't what you're trying to convey. Are you trying to explain that repentance can be found outside the church? I have never heard that, ever. If that was true then non members could go directly to spirit paradise but they can't, they have to go to spirit prison where they have to REPENT and accept the gospel before they can enter spirit paradise. Am I wrong about spirit prison also? And if not, why can't non members go to spirit paradise? Edited May 13, 2023 by RAD DAD
InCognitus Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 32 minutes ago, RAD DAD said: So how does a non member repent for their "serious" sins? They can't, correct? Not without joining the church. Atleast that's what I was taught. Isn't that why we have a mission program? Who says they can't? What are the first principles of the gospel, and in what order do they come?
RAD DAD Posted May 13, 2023 Author Posted May 13, 2023 18 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: @RAD DAD (perhaps that should be restyled "Rad(?) Dad"?) I've never heard it said by anyone in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (I would ask you to find a reference, but I'm not fond of asking people to chase their tails by doing the impossible) that repentance is possible only within the Church of Jesus Christ. If that were true, then no one ever would join the Church, since repentance is one of the first four principles and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2016-01-0160-teaching-repentance-and-baptizing-converts?lang=eng&alang=eng&collectionId=51e98566b70c433c7bbb0e9da7d957f8b48bf5ba In this video a Prophet of God explains that true repentance cannot be found outside the LDS church. Regarding baptism, and among other principles of the gospel he says that no one outside the church can offer repentance. Here's what he says "no one else can do this, Other churches cannot do it, good Christian living cannot do it, good faith, good desires and good reasoning cannot do it, only a man or woman teaching the fullness of the gospel with priesthood authority can teach this and only a man exercising the priesthood of God can administer a baptism that will satisfy the divine decree, except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of god." So either you're correct or Dalin Oaks is. Is it you or him?
RAD DAD Posted May 13, 2023 Author Posted May 13, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, InCognitus said: Who says they can't? What are the first principles of the gospel, and in what order do they come? Dalin Oaks. Start at the 13 minute mark and let the apostle of God explain it to you. Edited May 13, 2023 by RAD DAD
RAD DAD Posted May 13, 2023 Author Posted May 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, InCognitus said: Who says they can't? What are the first principles of the gospel, and in what order do they come? Plus, you do realize that a LDS bishop is a bishop for everyone inside his geographical area, not just for church members. That's because he is the only common judge of Israel in the area. The Baptist minister isn't a common judge. The catholic priest isn't a common judge. The LDS bishop is, and a non member can confess sins to the LDS bishop if they feel they need to. Why? Because to be fully forgiven, a child of God has to go infront of a common judge of Israel, either in this mortal life or the life after. Now that's the truth, stop trying to cover it up!
bluebell Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 3 hours ago, RAD DAD said: How should I not see non mormons in that way? There's only one way to truly and fully repent on this earth and that's to sit down in front of a worthy priesthood holder so to repent, and those priesthood holders are only found within our church, correct? What am I to think if I have been taught that all who don't accept the gospel here on earth will end up in a place called spirit prison after death? The terrestrial kingdom will be filled with people that didn't accept the gospel while here on earth, always to be separated from God forever. The telestial kingdom will be filled with whoremongers, murderers, sorcerers and in general, billions of wicked people. God said they will as innumerable as the stars. The church that you described is unfamiliar to me, though I’ve been a member for many decades. I can see how some come to view things in the terms you do, but it’s not how I was taught to view them. For example, in the 80s Robert Millet wrote an article for the Ensign explaining 1 Nephi 13-14 (I’m assuming because so many members were still perpetuating the myth that the Catholic Church was the whore of Babylon despite the church’s efforts to get them to stop). In that article he reminds us that there are many members of the church who are actually members of the church of the devil and many members of other religions who are members of the church of the Lamb. It’s an issue of who has our hearts, not who has our records. There are many many reasons that you shouldn’t see nonmembers like you do. You just have to come at the gospel and the doctrines of the church in different ways than you are right now. 2
RAD DAD Posted May 13, 2023 Author Posted May 13, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bluebell said: The church that you described is unfamiliar to me, though I’ve been a member for many decades. I can see how some come to view things in the terms you do, but it’s not how I was taught to view them. For example, in the 80s Robert Millet wrote an article for the Ensign explaining 1 Nephi 13-14 (I’m assuming because so many members were still perpetuating the myth that the Catholic Church was the whore of Babylon despite the church’s efforts to get them to stop). In that article he reminds us that there are many members of the church who are actually members of the church of the devil and many members of other religions who are members of the church of the Lamb. It’s an issue of who has our hearts, not who has our records. There are many many reasons that you shouldn’t see nonmembers like you do. You just have to come at the gospel and the doctrines of the church in different ways than you are right now. So you think there's a church of the devil? Edited May 13, 2023 by RAD DAD
ksfisher Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 37 minutes ago, RAD DAD said: Plus, you do realize that a LDS bishop is a bishop for everyone inside his geographical area, not just for church members. The bishop is a common judge in Israel. Israel is made up of those who have entered the waters of baptism. The mission president is the judge of non-members living within that particular mission boundaries. That is why it is the mission president that holds the priesthood keys needed to baptize coverts into the church. The mission does the interviewing and judges whether that person is worthy to be baptized, not the bishop. 2
ksfisher Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 42 minutes ago, RAD DAD said: to be fully forgiven, a child of God has to go infront of a common judge of Israel, either in this mortal life or the life after. Now that's the truth, stop trying to cover it up! Perhaps you are misunderstanding the repentance process. There are some sins, the more grievous ones, that a member of the church would need to confess, but not every sin. Sincere repentance through prayer and then worthily partaking of the sacrament is the process for most.
bluebell Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 37 minutes ago, RAD DAD said: So you think there's a church of the devil? Yes. Just like there is a church of the Firstborn. But neither exists as a specific denomination on the earth. The article is very good if you are interested in reading it. 1
Calm Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 2 hours ago, RAD DAD said: So you believe a non priesthood holder, let's say a Baptist preacher or a catholic priesthood has the power or keys to be a common judge and sit in judgement of transgressors? Doesn't that ho against everything we are taught in church? No, I don’t believe we need someone to sit in judgment of us to have true repentance. There may be cases it is needed to help the person work through issues they can’t on their own and if the sin is substantial and against the church or fellow church members, it may be necessary as well, but the vast majority of events of true repentance need to involve the individual and God and the Spirit. Part of the process of getting there may also be confessing to the one who was harmed where possible and providing restitution if possible, but that need not supervision nor approval by a priesthood leader…besides God himself. It is ridiculous to claim there was no true repentance ever occurring on earth anywhere the priesthood was/is absent, which is the state for the vast majority of humanity that has ever lived. Please should where the Church’s doctrine states true repentance can only occur when our priesthood leaders (outside of God) are sitting in judgment of us. 4
Calm Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, RAD DAD said: So how does a non member repent for their "serious" sins? They can't, correct? Not without joining the church. Atleast that's what I was taught. Isn't that why we have a mission program? CFR. A video that talks about baptism is not necessarily about true repentance. You should be able to find documentation somewhere if that is what you were taught by the Church. In writing to double-check exactly what you think is saying true repentance has to be confessed to a priesthood leader besides God https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1991/10/repentance?lang=eng “ True repentance also includes confession: “Now therefore make confession unto the Lord God of your fathers.” (Ezra 10:11.) One with a broken heart will not hold back. As confession lets the sickening sin empty out, then the Spirit which withdrew returns to renew.… All sins are to be confessed to the Lord, some to a Church official, some to others, and some to all of these. A few may require public confession. Confessing aids forsaking. We cannot expect to sin publicly and extensively and then expect to be rescued privately and quickly, being beaten “with only a few stripes.” (D&C 42:88–93.)” Edited May 13, 2023 by Calm 1
manol Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 4 hours ago, RAD DAD said: How should I not see non mormons in that way? There's only one way to truly and fully repent on this earth and that's to sit down in front of a worthy priesthood holder so to repent, and those priesthood holders are only found within our church, correct? What am I to think if I have been taught that all who don't accept the gospel here on earth will end up in a place called spirit prison after death? How do YOU see non-Mormons? I'm not asking what this or that online article or lesson manual or church leader says or implies, nor what was allegedly taught or implied in the Church past or present. I'm asking about you. How do YOU see non-Mormons? 2
RAD DAD Posted May 13, 2023 Author Posted May 13, 2023 12 minutes ago, Calm said: No, I don’t believe we need someone to sit in judgment of us to have true repentance. There may be cases it is needed to help the person work through issues they can’t on their own and if the sin is substantial and against the church or fellow church members, it may be necessary as well, but the vast majority of events of true repentance need to involve the individual and God and the Spirit. Part of the process of getting there may also be confessing to the one who was harmed where possible and providing restitution if possible, but that need not supervision nor approval by a priesthood leader…besides God himself. It is ridiculous to claim there was no true repentance ever occurring on earth anywhere the priesthood was/is absent, which is the state for the vast majority of humanity that has ever lived. Please should where the Church’s doctrine states true repentance can only occur when our priesthood leaders (outside of God) are sitting in judgment of us. Watch the video I provided of Dalin Oaks saying the repentance process can only be done by a worthy priesthood leader. He specifically says no one else can do this, good Christian living can not do it. You can start at the 13 minute mark.
Calm Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 I should have asked first. What do you mean by true repentance? As in what must occur before the final judgment or how the natural man is forsaken and changed while in mortality, meaning between birth and death? Total repentance of each and every sin or sincere repentance of one sin at a time? Or something else?
RAD DAD Posted May 13, 2023 Author Posted May 13, 2023 12 minutes ago, manol said: How do YOU see non-Mormons? Nothing wrong with non mormons. As I said in my opening post, If there is actually a satan, I think he and his followers are working hand in hand with God's people to test us, no other way makes sense if you really study church doctrine. That goes for non mormons also. I personally have no problem with non mormons. Some of the best people I know are not mormon. Personally I rather work for a non mormon than a mormon, I find them to be more honest.
Calm Posted May 13, 2023 Posted May 13, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, RAD DAD said: Watch the video I provided of Dalin Oaks saying the repentance process can only be done by a worthy priesthood leader. He specifically says no one else can do this, good Christian living can not do it. You can start at the 13 minute mark. I don’t do videos as in the end it is only worthwhile if you write the speech out to double-check you are both hearing the same thing. So if you want me to watch the video, give me the time stamp and also write out the relevant quote so I can be sure we are on the same page as to what he is saying. But if it is such a common teaching, you will be able to find it in writing as I have done my position above if you don’t want to go to that effort. What you have quoted shows baptism is only possible through priesthood authority. I agree with that. Edited May 13, 2023 by Calm 1
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