A fulness of glory - who and when?

[theplains]

This 2015 Ensign magazine mention the benefits of the new and everlasting covenant.

In summary, those who enter into the new and everlasting covenant and endure faithfully to the end
will (1) receive the fulness of the glory of God, (2) enjoy the power of godliness in time and eternity,
(3) be exalted, (4) enjoy eternal marriage and increase, and (5) become gods. Taken together, these
blessings culminate in the gift of eternal life.

The "fulness of glory" is mentioned in another teaching manual.   

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual-2017/chapter-36-doctrine-and-covenants-93?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/32493_eng.pdf

In mortality, Jesus Christ had to learn and grow “line upon line.” He sought Heavenly Father’s  grace, or
divine help and strength, daily, and He obtained greater knowledge and power until He received a fulness
of His Father’s glory.

Would this mean that Heavenly Mother had a fulness of her Father's glory even before Jesus?

[The righteous who have died] shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow,
suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit
the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend
the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church:
Joseph Smith [2007], 221–22).

This sounds like a person will have the same power (not more, not less) as Heavenly Father himself when that
person is exalted.  Is that correct?

Then another.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students-2014/section-04/unit-20-day-2-doctrine-and-covenants-93?lang=eng

Remember that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have a fulness of glory, which includes a fulness of intelligence,
or light and truth.
   
Does this mean the Holy Spirit does not have a fulness of glory (not having a fulness of intelligence, or light
and truth?)

[InCognitus]

57 minutes ago, theplains said:

In mortality, Jesus Christ had to learn and grow “line upon line.” He sought Heavenly Father’s  grace, or
divine help and strength, daily, and He obtained greater knowledge and power until He received a fulness
of His Father’s glory.

Would this mean that Heavenly Mother had a fulness of her Father's glory even before Jesus?

Why would you take a lesson quote about Jesus and his mortal experience in relation to his Heavenly Father as we have it in the scriptures, and extrapolate that to "Heavenly Mother"?   We don't know anything about Heavenly Mother and what things went on before that, so why ask us to make something up?

1 hour ago, theplains said:

[The righteous who have died] shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow,
suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit
the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend
the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church:
Joseph Smith [2007], 221–22).

This sounds like a person will have the same power (not more, not less) as Heavenly Father himself when that
person is exalted.  Is that correct?

Yes, just like those who overcome will sit on the same throne as God (Revelation 3:21).  It's not a higher throne, not a lower throne, but the same throne as Heavenly Father's throne.

And just like the same "glory" that Jesus received from his Father is given to the disciples (John 17:20-23).  It's the same "glory", the same "power", the same "exaltation".

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Remember that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have a fulness of glory, which includes a fulness of intelligence,
or light and truth.
   
Does this mean the Holy Spirit does not have a fulness of glory (not having a fulness of intelligence, or light
and truth?)

Read the lesson you linked:  "In Doctrine and Covenants 93:1–20, we learn about Jesus Christ, His relationship with Heavenly Father, and how we can receive 'a fulness of the glory of the Father' (D&C 93:16) as He did."

Just because the lesson is focusing on the relationship of Jesus and his Father, it doesn't mean that others don't have this same fulness of glory (i.e. the Holy Spirit).  In fact, the whole point of the lesson is how "we can receive a fulness of the glory of the Father".

 

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

1. Would this mean that Heavenly Mother had a fulness of her Father's glory even before Jesus?

2. This sounds like a person will have the same power (not more, not less) as Heavenly Father himself when that
person is exalted.  Is that correct?

3. Does this mean the Holy Spirit does not have a fulness of glory (not having a fulness of intelligence, or light
and truth?)

1. Yes.

2. Relatively speaking to their former selves, yes. God made Jesus' "equal" to him, ultimately he is also "greater" since his power is ultimately derived, and Jesus' resurrected glory is the same glory we stand to enter.

3. Only in the sense the Holy Ghost doesn't yet have a glorified, resurrected body. Otherwise as a member of the Godhead, authority and power equal to God.

[theplains]

On 3/24/2023 at 1:04 PM, InCognitus said:

Why would you take a lesson quote about Jesus and his mortal experience in relation to his Heavenly Father as we have it in the scriptures, and extrapolate that to "Heavenly Mother"?   We don't know anything about Heavenly Mother and what things went on before that, so why ask us to make something up?

Didn't LDS make up the doctrine of a Heavenly Mother since scripture says nothing about her existence?  As for her supposedly
attaining a fulness of glory, I would assume (also based on LDS teachings) that she achieved her exaltation via a celestial marriage
to Heavenly Father.
 

On 3/24/2023 at 1:04 PM, InCognitus said:

Just because the lesson is focusing on the relationship of Jesus and his Father, it doesn't mean that others don't have this same fulness of glory (i.e. the Holy Spirit).

According to D&C 132:6,21, the everlasting covenant was instituted for fulness of the Lord’s glory.

"And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and
he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord
God ... Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory".

The church adds further to this in 2015 Ensign article: "those who enter into the new and everlasting
covenant and endure faithfully to the end will (1) receive the fulness of the glory of God, (2) enjoy the
power of godliness in time and eternity, (3) be exalted, (4) enjoy eternal marriage and increase, and
(5) become gods. Taken together, these blessings culminate in the gift of eternal life.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit, who is taught to be another son of Heavenly Father, entered this new
and everlasting covenant and endured faithfully to the end and received the five blessings?

Edited March 27 by theplains

[The Nehor]

We make all kinds of assumptions about the Holy Ghost. There is also a weird belief that there is only one kind of being (exalted humans) among the exalted. The Holy Ghost might be something or someone else.

It is also odd that somehow the Holy Ghost would lose its power and influence if he were embodied since only a spirit being could reportedly do what he does yet we are told that only a resurrected being is perfected but perfection costs you an ability or power.

Oh wait, that might actually make a weird kind of sense. Okay, I need to ponder this. I think I missed something before.

[InCognitus]

44 minutes ago, theplains said:

Didn't LDS make up the doctrine of a Heavenly Mother since scripture says nothing about her existence? 

Scriptures aren't the only source of truth.  God reveals truths to his prophets.  Sometimes those revelations become scripture.

45 minutes ago, theplains said:

As for her supposedly
attaining a fulness of glory, I would assume (also based on LDS teachings) that she achieved her exaltation via a celestial marriage
to Heavenly Father.

You make a lot of assumptions.  Since we don't have a lot of information on the topic, it would be pure speculation to assume anything.

56 minutes ago, theplains said:

According to D&C 132:6,21, the everlasting covenant was instituted for fulness of the Lord’s glory.

"And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and
he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord
God ... Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory".

The church adds further to this in 2015 Ensign article: "those who enter into the new and everlasting
covenant and endure faithfully to the end will (1) receive the fulness of the glory of God, (2) enjoy the
power of godliness in time and eternity, (3) be exalted, (4) enjoy eternal marriage and increase, and
(5) become gods. Taken together, these blessings culminate in the gift of eternal life.

The "Lord's glory" would be to live with him in the Celestial kingdom, as it says in D&C 76:70, 92-96.  Those who make those covenants and abide by them will dwell with him in his glory.

59 minutes ago, theplains said:

Do you believe the Holy Spirit, who is taught to be another son of Heavenly Father, entered this new
and everlasting covenant and endured faithfully to the end and received the five blessings?

He will in the future.  Currently he dwells with the Father as a premortal spirit, just as Jesus did in the beginning. 

[theplains]

On 3/27/2023 at 4:20 PM, InCognitus said:

You make a lot of assumptions.  Since we don't have a lot of information on the topic, it would be pure speculation to assume anything.

If Heavenly Mother did not become a God via her celestial marriage to Heavenly Father, then how did
he become a God without a celestial marriage to her?

Do you believe Heavenly Father being married is based on scripture or speculation?

Edited April 3 by theplains

[theplains]

On 3/27/2023 at 4:20 PM, InCognitus said:

He will in the future.  Currently he dwells with the Father as a premortal spirit, just as Jesus did in the beginning.

In LDS theology, how did the Holy Ghost and Jesus both become Gods in their premortal life without an
earthly mortal probation and without a celestial marriage?

[CV75]

9 minutes ago, theplains said:

In LDS theology, how did the Holy Ghost and Jesus both become Gods in their premortal life without an
earthly mortal probation and without a celestial marriage?

I think they developed the attributes to become one with the Father as much as a spirit could within that "timeframe," as opposed, for example, to Lucifer.

[theplains]

34 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think they developed the attributes to become one with the Father as much as a spirit could within that "timeframe," as opposed, for example, to Lucifer.

What attributes made them Gods?

[The Nehor]

“Whom and when?”

*ducks out of thread*

[JAHS]

48 minutes ago, theplains said:

What attributes made them Gods?

For Jesus the answer to this problem hangs on the multiple definitions of the word "God". One definition describes Our Heavenly Father who is a resurrected, exalted being who went through the entire process of becoming "God the Father" a long time ago. Christ fulfilled another definition of the word "God" when He took part in the creation of this earth. Even though this was done under the direction of our Heavenly Father, Jesus would be considered the God and Father of this earth and universe because He was the one who created it. Our Heavenly Father is of course also our God, being a member of the Godhead. But the one who the prophets communicated with and obtained revelation and commandments from in the Old Testament times was Jesus(Jehovah). He did come closer to becoming a God like His Father after he obtained a body and was resurrected.
Also, in my opinion, the status of being a God, without obtaining an exalted resurrected body first, should be considered a special case. He was the first born in the spirit and the only begotten in the flesh. He was destined to be born on earth, atone for our sins and bring about the resurrection. If He already had a body he could not have done this. Consider the following scripture where, while on earth, Jesus prayed for the return of His pre-earth life status:

John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Apparently, according to this scripture, he did have the same amount of glory as His Father

[CV75]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

What attributes made them Gods?

I think the way we experience Them, and the spiritual response They solicit from us here in the fallen flesh informs our understanding of Their godly attributes. Goodness, love, humility, happiness come to mind (all the ways you might describe God); but I'm not doing Them justice. 

[mfbukowski]

On 3/27/2023 at 12:38 PM, The Nehor said:

We make all kinds of assumptions about the Holy Ghost. There is also a weird belief that there is only one kind of being (exalted humans) among the exalted. The Holy Ghost might be something or someone else.

It is also odd that somehow the Holy Ghost would lose its power and influence if he were embodied since only a spirit being could reportedly do what he does yet we are told that only a resurrected being is perfected but perfection costs you an ability or power.

Oh wait, that might actually make a weird kind of sense. Okay, I need to ponder this. I think I missed something before.

I agree with theplains, and think we don't have a lot of consistent Doctrine about the HG, competing with The Light of Christ, etc.

To patch up the paradigm and keep the rain out,  I see him as Pre- mortal spirit of high, high intelligence, who made it to the spiritual "Harvard at the age of 4," who is in charge of the "Communications Department."

In other words, nobody knows 😉 

 

 

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, theplains said:

What attributes made them Gods?

When someone asks them if they are a god they say: “YES!”

[Calm]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

What attributes made them Gods?

The Godly attributes, of course.

Define all that is in the Father, the Son and others that is “God” and then we can figure out how they got there.

Edited April 4 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

On 4/3/2023 at 10:02 AM, theplains said:

What attributes made them Gods?

Perfection in following the Covenants necessary for exaltation 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-endowment?lang=eng

Edited April 6 by mfbukowski

[InCognitus]

On 4/3/2023 at 10:12 AM, theplains said:

If Heavenly Mother did not become a God via her celestial marriage to Heavenly Father, then how did
he become a God without a celestial marriage to her?

As has already been discussed by others, there are various attributes that define what it means to be "God".  (More on this below).

On 4/3/2023 at 10:12 AM, theplains said:

Do you believe Heavenly Father being married is based on scripture or speculation?

It is based on inferred teachings by Joseph Smith that we have a Heavenly Mother, and that was taught by others shortly after his martyrdom and affirmed by the first presidency of the church in 1909.  But drawing any conclusions beyond the fact that we have a Heavenly Mother would be pure speculation.

On 4/3/2023 at 10:15 AM, theplains said:

In LDS theology, how did the Holy Ghost and Jesus both become Gods in their premortal life without an
earthly mortal probation and without a celestial marriage?

There are many attributes to God, not all of which are required to be called God, but it is relative to their present state of progression.  In the beginning, God the Father provided a plan so that all of his children could have the opportunity to become like him.  There was a "Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was" (Doctrine and Covenants 121:32).  But to become "like him" is a relative term, since God the Father is "above all" and "more intelligent than.. all" and increases in glory by bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.   All of his creations are to his glory, and there is no end to his creations.  And Celestial marriage is only part of what is required to become like him and have all that he has.  So it's all relative.

So Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost would be God in their attributes in the premortal life and prior to their obtaining a resurrected body and other attributes that are all part of becoming like God the Father, because they had all the divine attributes that they could attain at that point in their progression.

[mfbukowski]

On 4/3/2023 at 9:15 AM, theplains said:

In LDS theology, how did the Holy Ghost and Jesus both become Gods in their premortal life without an
earthly mortal probation and without a celestial marriage?

Obviously your position presumes a false paradigm that there is only one way to become a God.

Were that the case, it would be impossible for the Holy Ghost to ever be incarnated- who would be HIS "Holy Ghost" to lead him to truth?  Whom would He marry? He would have to be in a planet barren of beings like himself.

Obviously these are OUR requirements from OUR GOD Elohim, for his plan of salvation.

It's none of our business and irrelevant to us what happens in other worlds.

Our temple ceremony even implies that our world is different from others.

Edited April 10 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

On 3/27/2023 at 1:18 PM, theplains said:

Didn't LDS make up the doctrine of a Heavenly Mother since scripture says nothing about her existence? 

Revelation isn't the same as "making up the doctrine".

Regarding the scriptures not mentioning her:

Quote

Ultimately, the campaign to eliminate the goddess has failed. "Asherah was buried long ago by the Establishment," declares respected biblical scholar William H. Dever. "Now, archaeology has excavated her." Dever is quite certain that he knows who the Asherah of ancient Israel and of the biblical texts is--she is the wife or consort of Yahweh, the one god of Israel. Many of his colleagues would agree.

https://archive.archaeology.org/0503/abstracts/israel.html

https://www.ancient-origins.net/human-origins-religions/asherah-0010611

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna42147912

[Bernard Gui]

On 4/3/2023 at 9:12 AM, theplains said:

If Heavenly Mother did not become a God via her celestial marriage to Heavenly Father, then how did
he become a God without a celestial marriage to her?

Do you believe Heavenly Father being married is based on scripture or speculation?

“So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.”

The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day SaintsSalt Lake City, Utah, 30 June 1916

Edited April 11 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Duplicate 

Edited April 11 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Duplicate

[theplains]

On 4/10/2023 at 3:37 AM, mfbukowski said:

Obviously these are OUR requirements from OUR GOD Elohim, for his plan of salvation.

It's none of our business and irrelevant to us what happens in other worlds.

Does this mean those other worlds do not believe in the atonement of an extraterrestrial Jesus?

[theplains]

On 4/9/2023 at 3:57 PM, InCognitus said:

So Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost would be God in their attributes in the premortal life and prior to their obtaining a resurrected body and other attributes that are all part of becoming like God the Father, because they had all the divine attributes that they could attain at that point in their progression.

The Religion 430-431 manual says that Jesus reached a pinnacle of intelligence that ranked him as a
God.  Maybe that's the key attribute that constitutes Godhood.