Article on Trans Surgery

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Just like the 'separate but equal' stance for traditional mens' and womens' sports, the trans community should have their own competitive category. What would be wrong with that?

"Separate but equal" has negative connotations, and was invoked to defend invidious race-based discrimination.

I think the better approach would be two categories, one "Open" (for everyone, including trans athletes) and one for women (that is, actual women, not biological males who "identify" as female).

Thanks,

-Smac

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"Separate but equal" has negative connotations, and was invoked to defend invidious race-based discrimination.

I think the better approach would be two categories, one "Open" (for everyone, including trans athletes) and one for women (that is, actual women, not biological males who "identify" as female).

Thanks,

-Smac

How much are men's teams open?  You hear occasionally of a female on a football or wrestling team because the school doesn't have a girl's/women’s team.  I kind of like the open idea, but wonder if we sort of already have it with females being on male teams. I keep going back and forth how the idea is similar, but not.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

Just like the 'separate but equal' stance for traditional mens' and womens' sports, the trans community should have their own competitive category. What would be wrong with that?

It would be too small in most schools to function at all and would be underfunded and forming teams for competitions would be all but impossible. Probably a coach that is shared as well. Think girls sports only less funding and less participants and less enthusiasm. Then add in some fetishizing fans and….yuck.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

Just like the 'separate but equal' stance for traditional mens' and womens' sports, the trans community should have their own competitive category. What would be wrong with that?

There are likely not enough to carry it except for a small, probably well off group who do it for fun.  Asking schools to fund another program is likely to be met with “not possible”.

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

"Separate but equal" has negative connotations, and was invoked to defend invidious race-based discrimination.

I think the better approach would be two categories, one "Open" (for everyone, including trans athletes) and one for women (that is, actual women, not biological males who "identify" as female).

Thanks,

-Smac

Point take  though I don't think he terminology is all that important. After all, the traditional womens' and mens' teams have been 'separate but equal' this whole time without backlash.

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It would be too small in most schools to function at all and would be underfunded and forming teams for competitions would be all but impossible. Probably a coach that is shared as well. Think girls sports only less funding and less participants and less enthusiasm. Then add in some fetishizing fans and….yuck.

I agree. Individual sports would be easier (track & field, tennis, golf, etc). Teams sports would be harder.

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

There are likely not enough to carry it except for a small, probably well off group who do it for fun.  Asking schools to fund another program is likely to be met with “not possible”.

Agrees though where there's a will there's a way at the federal level much like what has happened for women. 

[bsjkki]

 

[smac97]

24 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Quote

"Separate but equal" has negative connotations, and was invoked to defend invidious race-based discrimination.

I think the better approach would be two categories, one "Open" (for everyone, including trans athletes) and one for women (that is, actual women, not biological males who "identify" as female).

Point take  though I don't think he terminology is all that important.

Precise terminology, "terms of art," particularly in a legal context, matter quite a bit.

24 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

After all, the traditional womens' and mens' teams have been 'separate but equal' this whole time without backlash.

Again, using the phrase "separate but equal" imports some very negative connotations into the discussion.

I think sex-based distinctions in sports are justifiable, whereas race-based distinctions are not.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

where there's a will there's a way at the federal level much like what has happened for women. 

Yeah…..not giving me a lot of faith there given what that took.

[The Nehor]

57 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Agrees though where there's a will there's a way at the federal level much like what has happened for women. 

Not much of a success story really.

[Vanguard]

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yeah…..not giving me a lot of faith there given what that took.

28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Not much of a success story really.

You're both probably right. I'll have to think on this. : )

[Nemesis]

👹

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Nemesis said:

👹

 

[Orthodox Christian]

On 2/10/2023 at 12:58 AM, bsjkki said:

That is horrible to read. 

It's about the saddest thing I have ever read. 

[Orthodox Christian]

On 2/9/2023 at 7:39 PM, smac97 said:

The Church's position:

"Before a person begins such therapy, it is important that he or she (and the parents of a minor) understands the potential risks and benefits."

I am concerned about whether this is happening.  

I saw this news item a few days ago:

"{I}t is irresponsible to meddle in important decisions that should be left to parents and their children."  Keep this in mind for later.

And this one, dated three days later:

This morning I came across another article by one "Jamie Reed": I Thought I Was Saving Trans Kids. Now I’m Blowing the Whistle.

Some excerpts:

Hmm.

The article later states that Reed left this position in November 2022, meaning she spent 3-4 years there.  Working on a day-to-day basis.

It seems that the long-term consequences of these medications are perhaps not being fully communicated to the minors and their parents.

This seems quite an indictment.

I have read a number of articles about the dramatic increase in purported "gender dysphoria" cases amongst teenage girls.  See, e.g., here, here, here.

I've commented a few times on the potential "social contagion" aspect of this issue (see, e.g., here).

"Ran the risk of being called a transphobe."  

This sort of conclusory and accusatory rhetoric needs to to be addressed.

I commented on these comorbidities being ignored back in 2016.

A while back one of my daughters matter-of-factly commented that one of her friends had multiple personalities.  Self-diagnosed, apparently.

This is concerning to me.  The approach to these issues seems to be driven as much as by ideology (or more so) than by objective, clinical scientific data.

Wow.  It sounds like the people at the clinic are using these girls as sockpuppets.  

Having a child is typically not on the immediate decision-making radar of teenagers.  

The "no reliable studies" link above takes you here: The New, Highly Touted Study On Hormones For Transgender Teens Doesn’t Really Tell Us Much Of Anything

Worth a read.

"{H}is mother sent an electronic message to the Transgender Center saying that we were lucky her family was not the type to sue."

I can't help but wonder if part of her decision not to sue is fear of being labeled a transphobe.

I am omitting the remainder of this paragraph and the following three additional ones.  Read them at the link.  Pretty disturbing stuff.

Oi.

Again, I am snipping the remainder of this part of the article.  Read it at the link.  Pretty troubling stuff.

Yep.  Sockpuppet.  

Wow.

Yeesh.

"I want my breasts back."  How tragic.

"Get on board, or get out."

This does not seem like a healthy state of affairs.

"{N}o American children are receiving drugs or hormones for gender dysphoria who shouldn’t.”

"Who shouldn't" seems to have all sorts of wiggle room in it.

England had only one "youth gender clinic," and they shut it down.

The United States apparently has "more than 100" (see here).

I am concerned that we are in the thrall of something very unhealthy.  I am grateful that the Church has provided some sound and cautious guidance, but it only works for people who are willing to listen.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

 

I have a question with regard to this trans dilemma. Please don't be offended, but according to LDS theology I believe, spirits are waiting to be born on earth so that they can gain a body so that they can progress. So what happens to that spirit when it gains a body of whichever gender if that person decides to transition. I mean are their genders preordained? Or are they without gender before they gain a body? I mean could God have got it wrong when assigning a gender to a spirit? And what is the LDS leadership teach about this question? That's several questions I know but, but they keep rattling around in my head, and I can't help thinking that these questions must be thorny for the presidency of your church. 

 

[Hamilton Porter]

24 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

have a question with regard to this trans dilemma. Please don't be offended, but according to LDS theology I believe, spirits are waiting to be born on earth so that they can gain a body so that they can progress. So what happens to that spirit when it gains a body of whichever gender if that person decides to transition. I mean are their genders preordained? Or are they without gender before they gain a body? I mean could God have got it wrong when assigning a gender to a spirit? And what is the LDS leadership teach about this question? That's several questions I know but, but they keep rattling around in my head, and I can't help thinking that these questions must be thorny for the presidency of your church. 

How does your tradition deal with it?

[Orthodox Christian]

1 hour ago, Hamilton Porter said:

How does your tradition deal with it?

Hi Hamilton, from our perspective we will die the same gender as we were born with. Gender dysphoria has to be regarded with compassion and love, but to try to become what you intrinsically are not, would not be recommended. Can of worms this isn't it? I think the church would recommend counselling in order that the person could live as they are, even if they cross dressed or outwardly lived as the opposite gender. If they were happy with that, as some are, then there would be no difficulty for the church, I think. However once you start to change from what are to the exact opposite is where real problems would arise. TBH, I have no experience of this, and it is a relatively new phenomenom for all religious groups to get their heads around. 

Now back to the OP, can you tell me how your tradition deals with this in light of your theology? 

[teddyaware]

On 2/9/2023 at 8:20 PM, The Nehor said:

Well, we have lots of studies on the aftereffects of transgender care. We know that detransitioning is pretty rare and in what studies I have seen the usual rationale for detransitioning is to escape social scorn and discrimination and only in a minority of cases do they think the transition was a mistake because they want back their old gender.

On the other hand we have one “whistleblower” with a lot of accusations and anecdotes. If these stories are true this needs investigation. That is not why this story has blown up though. This headline will be used to further vilify transgender people, more accusations of nebulous and undefined “grooming”, and laws that will forcefully detransition people. They won’t stop at minors either.

I know transgender people. I have friends who are transgender. This is going to lead to a lot of hurt for them. I know of families that are packing up and leaving states to protect their transgender children. As I said if this were going to lead to an investigation that would investigate bad standards of care and correct those flaws that would be great. It is not. It is being used to justify bans when the research shows a small minority regret their transition. Abortion was the first target because you had the justification of another life being involved. Now they pick on the kids because “they don’t know better”. They are already moving on to denying body autonomy to adults. The myth that rolling back abortion rights was about the life of the infant are proving hollow as bodily autonomy is being denied in more ways. They start with the most vulnerable and then move on up.

 

At the beginning of the 20th century a German clinic operated to study what we would later call the lgbt community and tried to help individuals dealing with gender dysphoria and non heteronormative sexualities. They amassed a lot of research and accounts of the lives of people of that community.

Then the Nazis showed up and knowledge was likely pushed backwards by decades and a lot of information including information on gender affirming care is forever lost.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/

“This has all happened before and it will happen again.”

 

On a very related note remember to punch Nazis.

There you go again with your calls for physical violence… Funny how it’ appears it’s only those on the traditional family side of the culture war who are called to account for mere perceived threats of violence, yet your call for outright violence will be left to stand without being called out by the moderators. Meanwhile, it’s a supreme irony that an enthusiastic advocate of experimental body butchering surgeries, the kind that would have made Nazi “Dr” Joseph Mengele flush with excitement, is accusing those who are opposed to horrific body mutilations of confused children of being Nazis.

Edited April 9, 2023 by teddyaware

[Hamilton Porter]

3 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

England had only one "youth gender clinic," and they shut it down.

The United States apparently has "more than 100" (see here).

Holy crap. 

Everything is too politicized here. 

Some states have far more licentious abortion laws than in Europe. Any restrictions are vehemently opposed.

Our gun laws are antiquated but we can't pass any restrictions without the rednecks throwing a fit. Mass shootings, oh well, it's Tuesday!

We can't get the right policy because people fight tooth and nail against any change.

 

 

 

[Hamilton Porter]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hi Hamilton, from our perspective we will die the same gender as we were born with. Gender dysphoria has to be regarded with compassion and love, but to try to become what you intrinsically are not, would not be recommended. Can of worms this isn't it? I think the church would recommend counselling in order that the person could live as they are, even if they cross dressed or outwardly lived as the opposite gender. If they were happy with that, as some are, then there would be no difficulty for the church, I think. However once you start to change from what are to the exact opposite is where real problems would arise. TBH, I have no experience of this, and it is a relatively new phenomenom for all religious groups to get their heads around. 

Now back to the OP, can you tell me how your tradition deals with this in light of your theology? 

Thanks for sharing.

The LDS Church believes gender is an eternal characteristic. I think that's in the Proclamation on the Family.

Most of the church's statement says don't to do it.

I've largely avoided this issue because I don't go around looking for headaches that don't affect me.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[Orthodox Christian]

6 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

England had only one "youth gender clinic," and they shut it down.

The United States apparently has "more than 100" (see here).

I don't think this is my quote, I can't recall saying this. 

[Hamilton Porter]

On 4/6/2023 at 2:41 AM, The Nehor said:

Not really. I just know that hormone therapy sometimes causes sexuality shifts. Not always extreme ones. You rarely lose attraction but you might acquire some. This is all anecdotal though. I have a friend who just started on testosterone and I thought he might lose his asexuality. Not so far though.

Thanks for sharing. Looks like there have been studies on this.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4192544/

I've always thought it was weird you can change someone's organs just by injecting some hormones, but flipping what's going on in someone's head is so hard.

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Hamilton Porter
Subject verb agreement

[Calm]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

yet your call for outright violence will be left to stand without being called out by the moderators.

Someone has to report him.  Have you?

[Teancum]

On 4/7/2023 at 2:49 PM, smac97 said:

"Separate but equal" has negative connotations, and was invoked to defend invidious race-based discrimination.

I think the better approach would be two categories, one "Open" (for everyone, including trans athletes) and one for women (that is, actual women, not biological males who "identify" as female).

Thanks,

-Smac

I do not understand the gender issues very well and have not spent time researching. It is very controversial.  I do worry on young people and decisions on gender and choices that can alter someone physically being made for them when they may not really be mature enough to make such decisions.

I also support the decisions on sports. It hardly seems fair for a biological male who has gone through puberty and may be transitioning to female to be able to compete against biological females.

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I have a question with regard to this trans dilemma. Please don't be offended, but according to LDS theology I believe, spirits are waiting to be born on earth so that they can gain a body so that they can progress. So what happens to that spirit when it gains a body of whichever gender if that person decides to transition. I mean are their genders preordained? Or are they without gender before they gain a body? I mean could God have got it wrong when assigning a gender to a spirit? And what is the LDS leadership teach about this question? That's several questions I know but, but they keep rattling around in my head, and I can't help thinking that these questions must be thorny for the presidency of your church. 

 

From The Proclamation on the Family:

Quote

W e, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children. All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/36035_000_24_family.pdf

[bsjkki]

https://jonathanturley.org/2023/04/09/sfsu-responds-to-alleged-assault-on-riley-gaines-by-praising-the-protesters/