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28 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would be interested in this….I am surprised it is this low for two different complicated surgeries given just basic issues with surgery recovery, problems with scar tissues in reconstructive surgery, potential damage of other organs in the area….complications I have heard about with hysterectomies for example.  Then there are the side effects from hormone therapy.  I would like to see the time frame, measurements of lingering pain and other side effects.

I only read the summary on that one. It is also important to point out that many transgender individuals don’t want any surgeries or sometimes can’t afford them or think the risks outweighs the rewards. The most common surgery is (iirc) transgender men having their breasts removed which is much less likely to cause complications than bottom surgery. I haven’t seen recent stats on how many transgender people get bottom surgery. Also the gender affirmative surgeries are much less invasive than a hysterectomy. It is mostly removal of external organs (for transwomen) and reconstruction on a surface level. I mean, it is a surgery and there are risks but it is not as dangerous as (if you will excuse the expression) messing with your innards.

There are other surgeries like facial reconstruction, Adam’s apple removal, and a few others I don’t remember but they are cosmetic.

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12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I only read the summary on that one. It is also important to point out that many transgender individuals don’t want any surgeries or sometimes can’t afford them or think the risks outweighs the rewards. The most common surgery is (iirc) transgender men having their breasts removed which is much less likely to cause complications than bottom surgery. I haven’t seen recent stats on how many transgender people get bottom surgery. Also the gender affirmative surgeries are much less invasive than a hysterectomy. It is mostly removal of external organs (for transwomen) and reconstruction on a surface level. I mean, it is a surgery and there are risks but it is not as dangerous as (if you will excuse the expression) messing with your innards.

There are other surgeries like facial reconstruction, Adam’s apple removal, and a few others I don’t remember but they are cosmetic.

They don’t do a hysterectomy for transgender men bottom surgery?  Not even ovaries?

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

They don’t do a hysterectomy for transgender men bottom surgery?  Not even ovaries?

Those both are potential surgeries for transmen. https://transline.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/229372808-Surgical-Options-for-Trans-Masculine-FTM-Individuals#:~:text=In transgender men%2C or transmasculine,uretheroplasty%2C vaginectomy%2C and phalloplasty.

estimates on prevalence vary but are at best still a plurality of transfolk and the number is rapidly increasing. Top surgery is far more prevalent than bottom surgeries for both trans women and men. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6626314/

 

 

With luv,

BD 

 

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4 hours ago, Calm said:

They don’t do a hysterectomy for transgender men bottom surgery?  Not even ovaries?

Sometimes. It might be more common than I thought. Looks like my memory on that is either flawed or out of date and it is more common than I thought. Sorry. Teach me to rely on memory at 5 in the morning when I haven’t slept.

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The other day Our family was talking about how some of the early opera parts were written for Castrati.  When I explained to them what a Castrato was, they were understandably disgusted by the practice.  Then in the conversation it was pointed out that a very similar practice is being promoted by certain elements of our culture today.

The more things change, the more things stay the same. 

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Just saw this: ‘Detransitioners’ Are Being Abandoned By Medical Professionals Who Devastated Their Bodies And Minds

Quote

After being swarmed by health providers who enabled her to medically transition as a minor, Prisha Mosley now says she’s been abandoned by the medical community as she attempts to navigate a complicated and painful detransition.

“I was under the impression that my doctors, who were transitioning me, loved me. They said they didn’t want me to die, they were saving my life, they were worried about me, and they wanted me to be healthy and happy,” Prisha told me. “Clearly, they don’t love me. As soon as it’s not profitable, they don’t want to help.”

I had not considered profit as a principal motive in this matter.  If there is money to be made in "transition" surgery/treatment, surely there is also money to be made in "detransition" surgery/treatment.

Nevertheless, I have read a number of articles in which "detransitioners" report feeling neglected / abandoned / ignored / shunned.  This may be a real problem.

Quote

Prisha has a slew of medical complications dating back to the more than five years she spent on testosterone and a double mastectomy that a plastic surgeon performed shortly after she turned 18.

Hmm.  The article does not specify the purpose of these treatments, except to impliedly characterize them as "transitioning" procedures.

Quote

Many of those complications surround her endocrine system, which encompasses the hormones that regulate nearly every process in the body, from metabolism to growth and development, emotions, mood, sexual function, and sleep.

“I was hoping that if I could get my endocrine system working, I could be on less psychiatric medicine because low testosterone and estrogen will cause depression and anxiety, both of which I’m medicated for and don’t really like being medicated for,” she said.

Prisha also hopes that with estrogen supplements, she’ll experience some muscle and fat redistribution. After years of testosterone broadened her neck and shoulders, she now carries more weight in her upper body, which causes her chronic pain. Her throat is sore, she can no longer sing or raise her voice, and she suffers hair loss, as well as hair growth on her body, which she has to treat with costly laser hair removal sessions.

Another side-effect Prisha is seeking medical attention for is severe sexual dysfunction, which is so bad, she says she can no longer use tampons.

“I used to be able to, and now I can’t,” she said. “And that sucks. There’s pain, there’s irregular periods, and atrophy.”

I wonder how many of these complications were foreseeable, and how much warning/notification she received prior to obtaining treatment.

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Hormonal care to fix her endocrine system, she hopes, could help her become more feminine — and perhaps fertile again. But she said every primary care physician, endocrinologist, obstetrician, and gynecologist she’s approached on her insurance list has turned her away or said they can’t help.

“I could call and be rejected every single day,” according to Prisha.

Professional organizations that represent many of these providers claim to offer open, inclusive, supportive care for “transgender” and “gender diverse” individuals. That offering, it appears, doesn’t apply to individuals seeking to detransition.

I wonder how pervasive this lack of support/options for "detransitioners" is.

Quote

Prisha isn’t the only detransitioner who feels abandoned by the medical institutions that pushed her into wrong-sex hormones and surgery. Over the past year, Independent Women’s Forum has documented multiple stories of detransitioners who also report being abandoned by medical and mental health professionals after deciding to detransition.

“I reached out to every physician, every therapist who is involved with this, and I haven’t really gotten any help at all,” said Chloe Cole, an 18-year-old who was fast-tracked down a medical transition as a child by a team of eager doctors. Left to navigate the detransition process on her own, Chloe stopped taking testosterone “cold turkey,” and is still struggling with urinary and other complications that doctors have yet to help fix.

Cat Cattinson, a woman who medically transitioned to a wrong-sex identity in her 20s before realizing it was a major mistake, said access to medical care from providers who are knowledgeable is one of the major barriers detransitioners face:

Because of the experimental nature of gender medicine, doctors know very little about the long-term effects of medical transition and even less about the health-care needs of those who detransition. Surgeries, obviously, are irreversible, but hormonal interventions can also have lasting effects requiring treatment to mitigate. Testosterone caused irreversible changes to my vocal cords, resulting in daily discomfort and pain, but most ENTs [ear, nose, and throat doctors] and other voice ‘professionals’ are not informed about how testosterone affects a female voice or how to help someone in my situation.

 

Pretty concerning stuff.

Quote

Prisha doesn’t know why she’s been turned away from so many doctors and medical providers — whether it’s about money, politics, or a lack of knowledge to help. If it’s the latter, one might ask why medical professionals are allowed to put individuals, including minors, on drugs and “treatments” that they’re unable to later undo or address, should that patient change his or her mind.

Whatever the reason, the inability to access medical attention is having a profound effect on Prisha, beyond her physical health.

Prisha, who attends school in Big Rapids, Michigan, has a long and complicated history with borderline personality disorder, anxiety, depression, and other mental illnesses. Now 24, Prisha says she used transitioning as a cover for her deeper-rooted mental health issues.

Since detransitioning, Prisha’s been in dialectical behavior therapy to manage her borderline personality disorder — therapy she credits with saving her life.

“When I treated that, all of the symptoms started getting better,” she said. “Nothing that I did to transition treated those things that were causing me mental suffering.”

There they are again: serious comorbidities which are apparently sometimes ignored.

Quote

But now as a detransitioner, even her therapy treatment is in disarray. A few months back, Prisha lost her health insurance because she couldn’t afford it. Under her new insurance, instead of being charged $10 per therapy appointment, she is being charged $96, an increase she wasn’t aware of for five months. Prisha now owes nearly $3,000 to her therapist, a service she depends on.
...
But because the surgery is not deemed “a medical necessity,” Prisha would have to pay for it fully out-of-pocket. She would also need at least two surgeries to stretch her skin and reconstruct her breasts, estimated at more than $11,000 each. During this process, Prisha says she was told she would risk losing her nipples, which her plastic surgeon removed and reattached in more masculine positions.

Is "transition" medical care being viewed as "medical necessity"?  If so, then shouldn't detransition medical care also be viewed as "medically necessary"?  If not, why not?

Quote

The dream of breast reconstructive surgery and the $4,000 she’s raised for it thus far were put on hold, as Prisha is left using every penny she has to pay for her therapy and basic health insurance coverage.

“I feel like it’s like a bottomless pit — the medical needs, and I need the therapy because I can barely do this,” she said. “And I’m absolutely not going to, once again, medicalize my body without taking care of my mind.”

Now in debt and being rejected by one doctor after another, Prisha is at a loss for what to do. In an act of desperation, she turned to Plume, a company that has raised millions of dollars to connect patients with physicians who can prescribe them “gender-affirming hormone replacement therapy” online, including a “one-time medical letter of support for surgery with a one week turnaround time” for a fee of $150. But this time, instead of affirming her identity as the opposite sex, Prisha sought the help of Plume to get blood tests and hormone treatments to affirm her true sex: a woman.

After paying $99 and scheduling an appointment with a provider, Prisha said she was “ghosted” 40 minutes before the appointment.

Plume hasn’t responded to Prisha’s requests for an explanation or even a refund. She suspects the provider canceled last minute because Prisha disclosed that she was “detrans” in initial paperwork she completed just minutes before the canceled appointment.

After she submitted her intake forms, “All contact dropped off,” Prisha said.
...

“I’m feeling pushed to go that route because no doctor will help me,” she said. “It is deeply triggering my [borderline personality disorder] abandonment and rejection issues. It’s really easy to slip into the mindset that everyone hates me, I’m a medical monster, I’m bad and evil, and I deserve this.”

“It’s just being abandoned,” Prisha added. “I feel abandoned.”

Troubling stuff.

-Smac

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5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Just saw this: ‘Detransitioners’ Are Being Abandoned By Medical Professionals Who Devastated Their Bodies And Minds

I had not considered profit as a principal motive in this matter.  If there is money to be made in "transition" surgery/treatment, surely there is also money to be made in "detransition" surgery/treatment.

Nevertheless, I have read a number of articles in which "detransitioners" report feeling neglected / abandoned / ignored / shunned.  This may be a real problem.

Hmm.  The article does not specify the purpose of these treatments, except to impliedly characterize them as "transitioning" procedures.

I wonder how many of these complications were foreseeable, and how much warning/notification she received prior to obtaining treatment.

I wonder how pervasive this lack of support/options for "detransitioners" is.

Pretty concerning stuff.

There they are again: serious comorbidities which are apparently sometimes ignored.

Is "transition" medical care being viewed as "medical necessity"?  If so, then shouldn't detransition medical care also be viewed as "medically necessary"?  If not, why not?

Troubling stuff.

-Smac

As I pointed out in earlier posts ‘active’ detransitioners are rare. By active I mean people who want to reverse the surgical procedures done to them and not people who just stopped taking hormones or gave up on transitioning due to costs or social pressures. There is a general lack of doctors and surgeons skilled in detransitioning procedures because demand for them is pretty low so it is not surprising they are hard to find.

The person surprised that a practice that specializes in transitioning are not necessarily trained to undo the procedure.

We probably should make detransitioning assistance part of the minimal requirements of health insurance. Congress should get on that.

You sure do a lot of “wondering” in the Tucker Carlson mode of consfusedly ‘just asking questions”. Why not look into it?

Serious comorbidities that are being ignored? I mean, I agree that the mental healthcare system in this nation is a national disgrace but I am doubting you want to fix that. Instead you seem to want people who specialize in transition care to somehow fix BPD?

 

*Insert standard disclaimer that I don’t trust the Federalist’s reporting here due to their prolific dissemination of misinformation on public health, election integrity, and their particularly notable defense of a man in this 30s actively seeking to date women as young as 14 as "not without some merit if one wants to raise a large family”. I would look for better and less hypocritical news sources.

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9 hours ago, The Nehor said:
15 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

@The Nehor, I reiterate my offer:  "So, this is one side of the issue.  I'm willing to sit through someone else's 2 hour podcast (or whatever), if someone would like to send me a source from the other side of the fence."  I'm offering you the chance to influence my still-forming opinions by providing relevant studies and data.  So far, all you're offering is a "trust me bro", putting 'whistleblower' in scare quotes, a 90 year old bit of history from Nazi Germany, and vague allusions a joker origin story that continues to worry folks

I love how you assume I am somehow duty bound to educate

Fair enough.  Y'ain't got no duty here.

Open offer to anyone who wishes to have an influence on my still-developing opinions on transgender issues: Feel free to give me some reading/viewing material.

(Full disclosure: I've been making this offer in various social circles for around 8 months or so.  Folks who have taken me up on the offer, have directed me to watch RuPaul, suggested I take my kids to a drag show, and called me a bootlicking Nazi, or a transphobe, or a TERF.  My offer is not eternal, but at this stage of my information gathering process, it's still a genuine offer.  I wanna do right by the 2nd great commandment, and am trying my darndest to figure out how to love the lesser-known letters and symbols of the alphabet.)

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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41 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Fair enough.  Y'ain't got no duty here.

Open offer to anyone who wishes to have an influence on my still-developing opinions on transgender issues: Feel free to give me some reading/viewing material.

(Full disclosure: I've been making this offer in various social circles for around 8 months or so.  Folks who have taken me up on the offer, have directed me to watch RuPaul, suggested I take my kids to a drag show, and called me a bootlicking Nazi, or a transphobe, or a TERF.  My offer is not eternal, but at this stage of my information gathering process, it's still a genuine offer.  I wanna do right by the 2nd great commandment, and am trying my darndest to figure out how to love the lesser-known letters and symbols of the alphabet.)

Are you also researching on your own because if you make a decision that is in part dependent on whether someone is willing to spoonfeed you data, that seems to me you are evading your own personal responsibility to try and find truth. 

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3 hours ago, Danzo said:

The other day Our family was talking about how some of the early opera parts were written for Castrati.  When I explained to them what a Castrato was, they were understandably disgusted by the practice.  Then in the conversation it was pointed out that a very similar practice is being promoted by certain elements of our culture today.

But enough about our weird widely accepted practice of infant genital mutilation. Circumcision probably deserves its own thread.

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14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are you also researching on your own because if you make a decision that is in part dependent on whether someone is willing to spoonfeed you data, that seems to me you are evading your own personal responsibility to try and find truth. 

Not sure what "researching on my own" means.  If you're asking am I enrolled in college level trans issues classes, the answer is no.  But I'll add your response to the list of responses I'm getting to my offer to learn.

Again, I've sat through a 2 hour Jordan Peterson podcast where he interviews the detransitioner Chloe Cole.  I've found and read all the other links I've posted.  And I've thoroughly read and considered everything folks say in threads like this.  I'm starting to form a picture, and it ain't the picture many folks who consider themselves Trans-allies think is the right picture.  I detest echo chambers, so I'm out actively asking people who don't think I'll get a good picture by watching Jordan Peterson and Chloe Cole, to send reading/viewing material my way.

Open offer to anyone who wishes to have an influence on my still-developing opinions on transgender issues: Feel free to give me some reading/viewing material.

Responses to date: 
- Suggestion to go watch RuPaul
- Suggestion to take my kids to a drag show
- A bunch of opinion, and then silence when discussion is offered.  (Those links are one of oodles of examples I've personally witnessed.)
- Getting called bootlicking Nazi, transphobe, and TERF
- Having my offer characterized as "evading my own personal responsibility to try and find truth"

I've also been given this book, which I've read through and gained a rough familiarity with.   Am reading more thoroughly as time permits.

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No, I mean are you looking for articles discussing the issues from multiple angles, looking at the research people are appealing to yourself rather than just assuming they got it right… what you would do I am guessing with a church controversy if you felt the need to make a judgment about it. 
 

The way you talked about the “offer” just sounded weird to me so I was more or less asking for clarification on your process of judgment, not meaning to judge you. 
 

I don’t have any problem asking others to send you their best as sometimes you get lucky and you get someone interested in the actual science. I would be a hypocrite when it came to CFRs if I trashed people who asked for the good arguments supporting their positions. The only issue for me is if you limit your efforts to inform yourself to what people were willing to give you because most people aren’t interested in providing solid research or documentation.

Sounds to me with your reading that you are making the effort yourself to explore more than one POV even if no one has taken you up on your offer in your opinion.

Edited by Calm
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17 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Not sure what "researching on my own" means.  If you're asking am I enrolled in college level trans issues classes, the answer is no.  But I'll add your response to the list of responses I'm getting to my offer to learn.

Again, I've sat through a 2 hour Jordan Peterson podcast where he interviews the detransitioner Chloe Cole.  I've found and read all the other links I've posted.  And I've thoroughly read and considered everything folks say in threads like this.  I'm starting to form a picture, and it ain't the picture many folks who consider themselves Trans-allies think is the right picture.  I detest echo chambers, so I'm out actively asking people who don't think I'll get a good picture by watching Jordan Peterson and Chloe Cole, to send reading/viewing material my way.

Open offer to anyone who wishes to have an influence on my still-developing opinions on transgender issues: Feel free to give me some reading/viewing material.

Responses to date: 
- Suggestion to go watch RuPaul
- Suggestion to take my kids to a drag show
- A bunch of opinion, and then silence when discussion is offered.  (Those links are one of oodles of examples I've personally witnessed.)
- Getting called bootlicking Nazi, transphobe, and TERF
- Having my offer characterized as "evading my own personal responsibility to try and find truth"

I've also been given this book, which I've read through and gained a rough familiarity with.   Am reading more thoroughly as time permits.

I assume you’ve watched this? 
https://tv.apple.com/us/episode/the-war-over-gender/umc.cmc.1jj39s607lehulo4k0iscsarp

 

Small clip here:

 

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
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I thought I would throw this recent ruling in China about transgender rights into this mix.

Quote

 

HONG KONG (Reuters) – Hong Kong’s top court on Monday ruled that the policy of barring transgender people from changing their gender shown on ID cards unless they undergo full sex reassignment surgery violates their rights and is unconstitutional.

The Court of Final Appeal unanimously sided with appeals launched by transgender activists Henry Tse and another appellant identified as “Q” and quashed the Commissioner of Registration’s decision to refuse their applications to change their gender on their Hong Kong Identity Cards.

“The policy’s consequence is to place persons like the appellants in the dilemma of having to choose whether to suffer regular violations of their privacy rights or to undergo highly invasive and medically unnecessary surgery, infringing their right to bodily integrity,” the judges wrote in their judgment.

“Clearly this does not reflect a reasonable balance. The Policy imposes an unacceptably harsh burden on the individuals concerned.”

Both Tse and Q underwent lengthy medical and surgical treatments, including hormonal treatment and removal of breasts, but the registrar still required them to conduct a full sex reassignment surgery, which the pair argued was unnecessary, unwanted and highly invasive.

Tse welcomed the judgment as it would solve the “burning issues” he encountered due to possessing a wrong ID and he called for a gender recognition law.

 

While this is not about underaged children and the governments control over them, it still would be a pretty sad day if China respected the choices transgenders make more than in the United States.  

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10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, you insinuated that there is genital mutilation and I deliberately misunderstood your insinuation by pretending you were talking about a different form of even more widespread genital mutilation.

Isn't that what the topic of this thread is about? Genital mutilation?

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11 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Isn't that what the topic of this thread is about? Genital mutilation?

Sometimes, though the transgender people I know would consider it to be repair. I don’t know the numbers on how many transgender people get “bottom surgery” but for most transgender individuals “top surgery” is done first and for many that is enough. Also many transgender individuals don’t seek out any surgery at all.

I was pointing out that it is a little weird that many of the people who seem to be very worried about children delaying puberty to possibly eventually (almost always as adults) get surgery that alters their genitalia have no problem with mutilating the genitals of literal infants who get much less say than the post pubescent teenagers who seek puberty blockers.

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6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Sometimes, though the transgender people I know would consider it to be repair.

And the castrati would consider it career development.

 

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I was pointing out that it is a little weird that many of the people who seem to be very worried about children delaying puberty to possibly eventually (almost always as adults) get surgery that alters their genitalia have no problem with mutilating the genitals of literal infants who get much less say than the post pubescent teenagers who seek puberty blockers.

The procedure the castrati underwent had essentially the same purpose as the puberty blockers.

At least in my neck of the woods people often try to get the procedure done while they are still eligible for Medicaid which means they have to do it while still a teenager.  I remember one client who's son (daugheter?) was rushing to get the procedure done before the eighteenth birthday to avoid the cost. 

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On 2/10/2023 at 11:16 AM, The Nehor said:

As I pointed out in earlier posts ‘active’ detransitioners are rare.

Quite a few variables here.  "detransitioning" and "transition regret" are not necessarily synonymous.  And what "transition" means is all over the place (surgery / social / hormone treatment, types and extent of surgery, etc.).  The stats look like they are all over the place, but the rates for kids seem quite high.  And there seems to be a strong social/political stigma affecting discussions of these matters.

Here:

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Detransition is more common in the earlier stages of transition, particularly before surgeries.[24] The number of detransitioners is unknown, with estimates ranging from less than 1% to as many as 8%.[23][25]
...

Studies have reported higher rates of desistance among prepubertal children. A 2016 review of 10 prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence found desistance rates ranging from 61% to 98%, with evidence suggesting that they might be less than 85% more generally.[26][27] These studies have been criticized on the grounds that they include cases as 'desistance' where the child met the criteria for gender identity disorder as defined in the DSM-III or DSM-IV, although some would likely not have met the updated criteria for gender dysphoria in the DSM-5 (2013).[28] Initial diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria were only introduced in the DSM-III (1980), so earlier research on desistance rates might report inflated numbers of desistance due to the inclusion of gender-nonconforming children without gender dysphoria.[29] Additionally, two studies of childhood desistance were based on data from a Canadian clinic which closed in 2015 after allegations that they engaged in conversion therapy by discouraging social transition; such clinical practices may also lead to inflated rates of reported desistance.[30][31] Most childhood desisters go on to identify as cisgender and gay or lesbian.[29]
...

Those who undergo sex reassignment surgery have very low rates of detransition or transition regret. A 2005 Dutch study included 162 adults who received sex reassignment surgery, 126 of whom participated in follow-up assessments one to four years after surgery. Two individuals expressed regret at follow-up, only one of whom said that they would not transition again if given the opportunity. The remaining 124 out of 126 (98%) expressed no regrets about transitioning.[34] A 2021 meta-analysis of 27 studies concluded that "there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after [gender-affirmation surgery]".[35]

Here:

Quote

For instance, in the UK a survey of 3398 attendees of a gender identity clinic found that just sixteen – about 0.47% – experienced transition-related regret. Of these, even fewer went on to actually detransition and become detransitioners.

 

In the US, a survey of nearly 28,000 people found that 8% of respondents reported some kind of detransition. Of this 8%, 62% per cent only did so temporarily due to societal, financial, or family pressures.

In Sweden, a fifty-year longitudinal study on a cohort of 767 transgender people found that around 2% of participants expressed regret following gender-affirming surgery, although it is unclear how many of these participants were detransitioning as a consequence.

In the Netherlands, a study of transgender young people found that only 1.9% of young people on puberty blockers did not want to continue with the medical transition.

Here:

Quote

A new study published in LGBT Health found that 13.1% of currently identified transgender people have detransitioned at some point in their lives, but that 82.5% of those who have detransitioned attribute their decision to at least one external factor such as pressure from family, non-affirming school environments, and increased vulnerability to violence, including sexual assault.

Here:

Quote

Over the last few years, a growing community of detransitioners has formed online. Despite the visibility recently given to the topic in mainstream media, including a recent 60 Minutes episode featuring detransitioners and their stories, detransition is still a poorly understood phenomenon. A recent exploratory cross-sectional study aims to serve as a springboard for further academic research on the subject. It focuses particularly on uncovering the specific needs that detransitioners experience and the support - or lack thereof - that they receive.

Among the total of 237 survey participants, 92% were birth-registered females. Approximately 2/3 had transitioned both socially and medically, while just under 1/3 transitioned only socially (the option of "only medical" transition was not provided in the survey responses). Among those who medically transitioned, 46% underwent "gender-affirming" surgeries (vs. only undergoing hormonal interventions).

The average age of transition was 18 for social transition (17 for females, 24 for males), and 20.7 for medical transition (20 for females, 26 for males). A quarter of the respondents began medical transition before 18. The average age of detransition was 23 (22 for females, 30 for males). On average, detransition occurred roughly 5 years after transition was initiated (with males taking somewhat longer to detransition).

The participants' decision to detransition was most often tied to the realization that their gender dysphoria was related to other issues (70%), health concerns (62%), and the fact that transition did not alleviate their dysphoria (50%). Interestingly, over 4 in 10 (43%) participants endorsed a change in political views as a reason for detransition.

screen_shot_2021-05-30_at_12.24.13_pm.pn

Most participants reported significant difficulties finding the help that they needed during their detransition process from medical, mental health, or LGBT communities. Only 13% of the respondents received help from LGBT organizations when detransitioning, compared to 51% when transitioning. A number of participants reported negative reactions from LGBT and medical communities, and 51% of the sample expressed that they did not feel supported during their detransition. 

Most detransitioners reported ongoing needs related to managing comorbid mental health conditions (65%), finding alternatives to medical transition (65%), and coping with regret (60%). Half of the sample reported the need for medical information on stopping or changing hormone regimens. A great majority of participants also expressed the need to hear about others' detransition experiences (87%) and getting in contact with other detransitioners (76%). The study highlights the urgency of providing appropriate medical, psychological, legal, and social support to detransitioners.

This is the first large-sample, peer-reviewed study of the experiences of individuals who identify as detransitioners.

Here (very long, but one of the most informative examinations of this issue I've come across) :

Quote

For years, Dr Kinnon MacKinnon, like many people in the transgender community, considered the word “regret” to be taboo.

MacKinnon, a 37-year-old transgender man and assistant professor of social work at York University here, thought it was offensive to talk about people who transitioned, later regretted their decision, and detransitioned. They were too few in number, he figured, and any attention they got reinforced to the public the false impression that transgender people were incapable of making sound decisions about their treatment.

“This doesn’t even really happen,” MacKinnon recalled thinking as he listened to an academic presentation on detransitioners in 2017. “We’re not supposed to be talking about this.”

MacKinnon, whose academic career has focused on sexual and gender minority health, assumed that nearly everyone who detransitioned did so because they lacked family support or couldn’t bear the discrimination and hostility they encountered – nothing to do with their own regret. To learn more about this group for a new study, he started interviewing people.

In the past year, MacKinnon and his team of researchers have talked to 40 detransitioners in the United States, Canada and Europe, many of them having first received gender-affirming medical treatment in their 20s or younger. Their stories have upended his assumptions.

Many have said their gender identity remained fluid well after the start of treatment, and a third of them expressed regret about their decision to transition from the gender they were assigned at birth. Some said they avoided telling their doctors about detransitioning out of embarrassment or shame. Others said their doctors were ill-equipped to help them with the process. Most often, they talked about how transitioning did not address their mental health problems.

In his continuing search for detransitioners, MacKinnon spent hours scrolling through TikTok and sifting through online forums where people shared their experiences and found comfort from each other. These forays opened his eyes to the online abuse detransitioners receive – not just the usual anti-transgender attacks, but members of the transgender community telling them to “shut up” and even sending death threats.

“I can’t think of any other examples where you’re not allowed to speak about your own healthcare experiences if you didn’t have a good outcome,” MacKinnon told Reuters.

The stories he heard convinced him that doctors need to provide detransitioners the same supportive care they give to young people to transition, and that they need to inform their patients, especially minors, that detransitioning can occur because gender identity may change. A few months ago, he decided to organize a symposium to share his findings and new perspective with other researchers, clinicians, and patients and their families.

Not everyone was willing to join the discussion. A Canadian health provider said it couldn’t participate, citing recent threats to hospitals offering youth gender care. An LGBTQ advocacy group refused to promote the event. MacKinnon declined to identify either, telling Reuters he didn’t want to single them out. Later, after he shared his findings on Twitter, a transgender person denounced his work as “transphobia.”

In the world of gender-affirming care, as well as in the broader transgender community, few words cause more discomfort and outright anger than “detransition” and “regret.” That’s particularly true among medical practitioners in the United States and other countries who provide treatment to rising numbers of minors seeking to transition.

They insist, as MacKinnon once did, that detransitioning is too rare to warrant much attention, citing their own experiences with patients and extant research to support their view. When someone does detransition, they say, it’s almost never because of regret, but rather, a response to the hardship of living in a society where transphobia still runs rampant.
...
Dr Laura Edwards-Leeper, a clinical psychologist in Oregon who treats transgender youths and a co-author of WPATH’s new Standards of Care for adolescents and children, said MacKinnon’s work represents some of the most extensive research to date on the reasons for detransitioning and the obstacles patients face. She said the vitriol he has encountered illustrates one reason so few clinicians and researchers are willing to broach the subject.

“People are terrified to do this research,” she said.

For this article, Reuters spoke to 17 people who began medical transition as minors and said they now regretted some or all of their transition. Many said they realized only after transitioning that they were homosexual, or they always knew they were lesbian or gay but felt, as adolescents, that it was safer or more desirable to transition to a gender that made them heterosexual. Others said sexual abuse or assault made them want to leave the gender associated with that trauma. Many also said they had autism or mental health issues such as bipolar disorder that complicated their search for identity as teenagers.

Echoing what MacKinnon has found in his work, nearly all of these young people told Reuters that they wished their doctors or therapists had more fully discussed these complicating factors before allowing them to medically transition.

No large-scale studies have tracked people who received gender care as adolescents to determine how many remained satisfied with their treatment as they aged and how many eventually regretted transitioning. The studies that have been done have yielded a wide range of findings, and even the most rigorous of them have severe limitations. Some focus on people who began treatment as adults, not adolescents. Some follow patients for only a short period of time, while others lose track of a significant number of patients.

“There’s a real need for more long-term studies that track patients for five years or longer,” MacKinnon said. “Many detransitioners talk about feeling good during the first few years of their transition. After that, they may experience regret.”
...
Doctors and detransitioners also described the challenging physical and emotional consequences of the process. For example, patients who had their ovaries or testes removed no longer produce the hormones that match their gender assigned at birth, risking bone-density loss and other effects unless they take those hormones the rest of their lives. Some may undergo years of painful and expensive procedures to undo changes to their bodies caused by the hormones they took to transition. Those who had mastectomies may later undergo breast reconstruction surgery. As parents, they may regret losing the ability to lactate. Detransitioners also may need counseling to cope with the process and any lingering regret.

The impact can be social, too. In a study published last year in the Journal of Homosexuality, a researcher in Germany surveyed 237 people who had socially or medically transitioned and later detransitioned, half of them having transitioned as minors. Many respondents reported a loss of support from the LGBTQ community and friends, negative experiences with medical professionals, difficulty in finding a therapist familiar with detransition and the overall isolation after detransition.

“Many respondents described experiences of outright rejection from LGBT+ spaces due to their decision to detransition,” wrote Elie Vandenbussche, the study’s author, a detransitioner and at the time a student at Rhine-Waal University of Applied Sciences. “It seems reasonable to suspect that this loss of support experienced by detransitioners must have serious implications on their psychological well-being.”

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Although anecdotal accounts of detransition are rapidly mounting, there is a paucity of scientific evidence to describe the rate of and reasons for detransition. In Access to care and frequency of detransition among a cohort discharged by a UK national adult gender identity clinic: retrospective case-note review, published October 1 2021 by Cambridge University Press, the authors aim to quantify detransition among a cohort of 175 people who sought out medicalization at UK clinics in 2017 and 2018.

 

One noted limitation: “As data collection occurred for only 16 months after the most recent discharge, we may have underestimated the frequency of detransitioning. There is some evidence that people detransition on average 4 or 8 years after completion of transition, with regret expressed after 10 years.”

Also notable is that “more than one in five (21.7%) service users disengaged from the service and were discharged for non-attendance.”  Although it was beyond the scope of this study to examine this aspect, it is striking that more than 20% of those who had spent years on a waiting list to undergo medicalization dropped out, and no documentation exists to explain the reason(s). 

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Individuals Treated for Gender Dysphoria with Medical and/or Surgical Transition Who Subsequently Detransitioned: A Survey of 100 Detransitioners (2021)

Lisa Littman

“Some were harmed by transition and detransitioned because they concluded that their gender dysphoria was caused by trauma, a mental health condition, internalized homophobia, or misogyny—conditions that are not likely to be resolved with transition.These findings highlight the complexity of gender dysphoria and suggest that, in some cases, failure to explore co-morbidities and the context in which the gender dysphoria emerged can lead to misdiagnosis, missed diagnoses, and inappropriate gender transition.”

Read the full study here

Detransition-Related Needs and Support: A Cross-Sectional Online Survey (2021)

Elie Vandenbussche

“The results showed important psychological needs in relation to gender dysphoria, comorbid conditions, feelings of regret and internalized homophobic and sexist prejudices. It was also found that many detransitioners need medical support notably in relation to stopping/changing hormone therapy, surgery/treatment complications and reversal interventions. Additionally, the results indicated the need for hearing about other detransitioners’ experiences and meeting each other.”

Read the full study results here

...
 

A Typology of Gender Detransition and Its Implications for Healthcare Providers (2021)

Pablo Exposito-Campos

“When facing a person who decides to detransition, clinicians must always adopt a non-judgmental, compassionate stance. Detransitioning can be as difficult as transitioning due to societal lack of understanding, social isolation, fear, shame, trauma, and the paucity of answers and resources for those who take that path. Even when the person has only undergone a social transition, going back to living according to one’s birth sex can be troublesome”

Read the full paper here

...
 

Debate: The pressing need for research and services for gender desisters/detransitioners (2020)

Catherine Butler, Anna Hutchinson

“Research with populations who desist and detransition is in its infancy, and little is known about how best to work with this growing population. While there is increasing recognition of the need for support for those who require it, there are still no clear guidelines on how to do this work. We are at an important juncture where our evidence base is based on previous cohorts that may not be applicable to the current population of desisters and detransitioners; it is prudent to consider their needs alongside those who go on to identify as trans for life.”

Read the full paper here

Debate: Reality check – Detransitioner’s testimonies require us to rethink gender dysphoria (2020)

Kirsty Entwistle

“Anecdotal reports by detransitioners suggest greater openness to psychological formulation based interventions to make sense of the factors that prompted and maintained their GD that may have been more challenging prior to detransition. These include external factors such as ‘bingeing’ on videos by transgender YouTubers; misinformation on GD and medical transition; being bullied and being socially isolated.”

Read the full paper here

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Factors Leading to ‘‘Detransition’’ Among Transgender and Gender Diverse People in the United States: A Mixed-Methods Analysis
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A total of 17,151 (61.9%) participants reported that they had ever pursued gender affirmation, broadly defined. Of these, 2242 (13.1%) reported a history of detransition. Of those who had detransitioned, 82.5% reported at least one external driving factor. Frequently endorsed external factors included pressure from family and societal stigma. History of detransition was associated with male sex assigned at birth, nonbinary gender identity, bisexual sexual orientation, and having a family unsupportive of one’s gender identity. A total of 15.9% of respondents reported at least one internal driving factor, including fluctuations in or uncertainty regarding gender identity.

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On 2/10/2023 at 11:16 AM, The Nehor said:

By active I mean people who want to reverse the surgical procedures done to them and not people who just stopped taking hormones or gave up on transitioning due to costs or social pressures. There is a general lack of doctors and surgeons skilled in detransitioning procedures because demand for them is pretty low so it is not surprising they are hard to find.

The person surprised that a practice that specializes in transitioning are not necessarily trained to undo the procedure.

We probably should make detransitioning assistance part of the minimal requirements of health insurance. Congress should get on that.

You sure do a lot of “wondering” in the Tucker Carlson mode of consfusedly ‘just asking questions”. Why not look into it?

Serious comorbidities that are being ignored? I mean, I agree that the mental healthcare system in this nation is a national disgrace but I am doubting you want to fix that. Instead you seem to want people who specialize in transition care to somehow fix BPD?

 

*Insert standard disclaimer that I don’t trust the Federalist’s reporting here due to their prolific dissemination of misinformation on public health, election integrity, and their particularly notable defense of a man in this 30s actively seeking to date women as young as 14 as "not without some merit if one wants to raise a large family”. I would look for better and less hypocritical news sources.

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Background:

There is an unknown percentage of transgender and gender non-confirming individuals who undergo gender-affirmation surgeries (GAS) that experiences regret. Regret could lead to physical and mental morbidity and questions the appropriateness of these procedures in selected patients. The aim of this study was to evaluate the prevalence of regret in transgender individuals who underwent GAS and evaluate associated factors.

Methods:

A systematic review of several databases was conducted. Random-effects meta-analysis, meta-regression, and subgroup and sensitivity analyses were performed.

Results:

A total of 27 studies, pooling 7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS, were included. The pooled prevalence of regret after GAS was 1% (95% CI <1%–2%). Overall, 33% underwent transmasculine procedures and 67% transfemenine procedures. The prevalence of regret among patients undergoing transmasculine and transfemenine surgeries was <1% (IC <1%–<1%) and 1% (CI <1%–2%), respectively. A total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS. Twenty-eight had minor and 34 had major regret based on Pfäfflin’s regret classification. The majority had clear regret based on Kuiper and Cohen-Kettenis classification.

Conclusions:

Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS. However, there is high subjectivity in the assessment of regret and lack of standardized questionnaires, which highlight the importance of developing validated questionnaires in this population.

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Supporters of gender-affirming therapy (GAT)—transition affirmation—are doubling down on claims that regret and detransition are rare. From state-level bills in my home state of California to national policy initiatives from the federal administration, the assertion that transitioning for gender dysphoria is all but regret free is used as a promotional tool for the proposed mandating of GAT essentially on request. However, the sales pitch does not hold up to inspection.

Studies and surveys commonly cited to prove that regret after transition (GAT) for gender dysphoria is exceedingly rare remarkably often demonstrate the same fatal flaws:

  • Impressively high rates of loss to follow up, from over 20 percent to over 60 percent, which invalidate the findings.[1] Were those lost patients helped, hurt or even still alive?[2]
  • Exceedingly strict definitions for regret, e.g. requiring formal application to change their legal documents back to the original sex.[3]
  • Insufficient periods of follow up, usually only six months to two years post-transition, despite the existing evidence that post-surgical regret is known to manifest eight years or so post-transition.[4],[5]
  • Sampling usually taken from gender clinics, to which those with regret repeatedly report they do not return. Dr. Littman’s 2021 survey of 100 detransitioners found that only 24 percent had informed their clinician of their detransition, thus 76 percent did not.[6]
  • Data is gleaned from in-house satisfaction surveys lacking clear and uniform definitions, metrics and follow up. This low-quality data then gets pooled to create low quality, unreliable results.

A 2022 review by Boyd et al., of a modest but at least population-based UK sample (n=68) noted that 20 percent of the sampled patients quit hormone treatment, with half reporting “regret” or “detransition” as why.[7] That would mean a 10 percent rate of regret or detransition, except that regretters often don’t return to gender clinics or even inform their healthcare professionals of their progress. A 2021 single-clinic review by Hall et al found a 6.9 percent detransition rate, but the same caveat applies, namely that those with regret avoid the gender clinics.[8] The obvious implication is that the rate of regret is higher than reported.
...

Dr. Lisa Littman’s previously mentioned 2021 paper titled “Individuals Treated for Gender Dysphoria with Medical and/or Surgical Transition Who Subsequently Detransitioned: A Survey of 100 Detransitioners” found, unsurprisingly, there was no solitary reason or experience leading to detransition.[11] Among the most common motivations given were 60 percent who developed more comfort identifying with their natal sex, 55 percent saying they had received inadequate evaluation from medical or mental health professionals prior to transitioning, 49 percent concerned about potential medical complications of the transition and 30 percent who began to see their gender dysphoria as caused by trauma, abuse or mental health issues. And to reiterate, 76 percent failed to inform their clinician of their detransition.

Further evidence regarding regret is not hard to find. A 2021 paper by Entwistle examined testimonies of detransitioners.[12] A 2019 story in the British News.sky.com discussed the establishment of The Detransition Advocacy Network necessitated, as the title of the article stipulated, by “‘Hundreds’ of young trans people seeking help to return to original sex.”[13] The Reddit.com group r/detrans has more than 34,000 members. Walt Heyer’s sexchangeregret.com site contains numerous accounts and more information on the topic. Walt informed me that of the many thousands of people with post-transition regret he has counselled, not one of them had ever been approached to participate in a regret study, including Walt. A series of five-minute mini-documentaries with regretters of transition is on Facebook under the “His Name is Money” project.

Post-transition regret in patients with gender dysphoria is not rare. The studies claiming regret to be extremely uncommon are usually fatally flawed by high rates of loss to follow up, excessively rigid definitions of regret, insufficient length of follow up, sampling bias and low-quality data, which can then get pooled into larger amounts of low-quality data. We will be hearing more from those with transition regret, and so shall the courts.

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Costello used only one study to reach a conclusion on the frequency of regret. She or her staff did not look at the wealth of other studies that suggest sex change regret is quite common. One such study commissioned by The Guardian of the UK in 2004 reviewed 100 studies and reported that a whopping 20 percent (one fifth) of transgenders regret changing genders, ten times more than CNN’s Costello reported.

The review of 100 studies also revealed that many transgenders remained severely distressed and even suicidal after the gender change operation. Suicide and regret remain the dark side of transgender life.

The media cover-up of regret and suicides isn’t a new phenomenon; it was in play 36 years ago. In 1979 Dr. Charles Ihlenfeld, who worked alongside the famous Dr. Harry Benjamin for six years administering hormone therapy to some 500 transgenders, spoke to an audience in New York about his experience: “There is too much unhappiness among people who have had the surgery. Too many of them end as suicides.
...
The study commissioned by The Guardian of the UK in 2004 reviewed 100 studies and found 20 percent regret. Consider the findings of a 2011 Swedish study (not the study Ms. Costello used) published seven years after the 2004 UK review. It looked at mortality and morbidity after gender reassignment surgery and found that people who changed genders had a higher risk of suicide.
...

According to several studies, the majority of transgenders have co-existing disorders that need to be treated. This helps to explain why regret and suicide are prevalent among transgenders. The following studies provide irrefutable evidence that transgenders overwhelmingly suffer from a variety of mental disorders. Neither CNN nor Carol Costello will report studies such as these.

  1. “90 percent of these diverse patients had at least one other significant form of psychopathology” reported Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, Department of Psychiatry in a 2009 study of transgender outcomes at their clinic. In other words, 90 percent of the patients were suffering from a mental illness that gender surgery did not alleviate.
  1. 61 percent of the patients treated for cross-gender identification (359 people) had other psychiatric disorders and illnesses, notably personality, mood, dissociative, and psychotic disorders according to a 2003 Dutch survey of board-certified Dutch psychiatrists.
  1. A 2013 University of Louisville, KY study of 351 transgender individuals found that the rates of depression and anxiety symptoms within the study “far surpass the rates of those for the general population.” About half had depressive symptoms and more than 40 percent had symptoms of anxiety.

In all the rhetoric about gender change success you cannot find one sound bite from any media source that acknowledges that even one transgender suffers from a serious mental illness, much less reporting the 90 percent like Case Western Reserve University found, or the 61 percent that the survey of Dutch psychiatrists reported. The numbers are astonishingly high, yet no media reports it.

Fair-minded individuals would see the cumulative effect of the findings—20 percent have regret, 41 percent attempt suicide, 90 percent have a “significant form of psychopathology”, 61 percent also have other psychiatric disorders and illnesses, 50 percent had depressive symptoms, 40 percent showed symptoms of anxiety—and be troubled by the push to surgery and transition as the first course of treatment for transgenders.

Yet the media is silent. It’s so much easier to deliver the LGBT talking point than to dig into the science.

Thanks,

-Smac

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35 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Quite a few variables here.  "detransitioning" and "transition regret" are not necessarily synonymous.  And what "transition" means is all over the place (surgery / social / hormone treatment, types and extent of surgery, etc.).  The stats look like they are all over the place, but the rates for kids seem quite high.  And there seems to be a strong social/political stigma affecting discussions of these matters.

Here:

Here:

Here:

Here:

Here (very long, but one of the most informative examinations of this issue I've come across) :

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Thanks,

-Smac

I already went over this. Detransition is also very broadly defined. You can say someone detransitioned because they couldn’t afford their hormones or went back to their birth sex for a family gathering for a little bit.

The rate in children being cured of dysphoria is high. I mentioned that too. This is why puberty blockers are almost never administered until the child hits puberty. Puberty often has a drastic and immediate impact on dysphoria.

If you are arguing that those who do regret their gender transition deserve help I agree. There are also some weird edge cases where it isn’t regret so much as feeling their gender identity shifted. I know one person who went through that. The irony is that I would wager that most people who voluntarily detransition wouldn’t appreciate being poster children for an anti-transgender movement. The person I know would be disgusted by it.

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Giving medications to youth really concerns me because I have seen, including up close what a bad job pediatric psychiatrists too often do by not looking holistically at a kid’s needs, but just focusing on the main complaint they are there for.  Kids with rls, for example, are often misdiagnosed as ADHD due to sleep deprivation wiring them because sleep issues aren’t explored enough and even when diagnosed are given inappropriate drugs because the rls is dismissed as relevant to their mental/emotional issues.  This happened with my daughter because we thought the anxiety needed to be treated (she wouldn’t leave the house on her own anymore) and the doctor bullied us into allowing her to take a drug that was on the rls experts’ absolutely don’t take list.  One of the biggest regrets of my life, if not the biggest.  

I have said this before, but given the widespread poor mental health care standard for kids in most places, I don’t see it as likely the quality of care would be remarkably better for transgender/gender dysphoria kids.  So I am probably biased to accept the whistleblower accounts as more likely than not as I would be if too quick to prescribe/too heavy dependence on drugs accounts popped up in other mental health fields for youth.

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