Article on Trans Surgery

[smac97]

The Church's position:

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“Church leaders counsel against elective medical or surgical intervention for the purpose of attempting to transition to the opposite gender of a person’s birth sex (‘sex reassignment’). Leaders advise that taking these actions will be cause for Church membership restrictions.

“Leaders also counsel against social transitioning. A social transition includes changing dress or grooming, or changing a name or pronouns, to present oneself as other than his or her birth sex. Leaders advise that those who socially transition will experience some Church membership restrictions for the duration of this transition.

“Restrictions include receiving or exercising the priesthood, receiving or using a temple recommend, and receiving some Church callings. Although some privileges of Church membership are restricted, other Church participation is welcomed.

“Transgender individuals who do not pursue medical, surgical, or social transition to the opposite gender and are worthy may receive Church callings, temple recommends, and temple ordinances.

“Some children, youth, and adults are prescribed hormone therapy by a licensed medical professional to ease gender dysphoria or reduce suicidal thoughts. Before a person begins such therapy, it is important that he or she (and the parents of a minor) understands the potential risks and benefits. If these members are not attempting to transition to the opposite gender and are worthy, they may receive Church callings, temple recommends, and temple ordinances.

“If a member decides to change his or her preferred name or pronouns of address, the name preference may be noted in the preferred name field on the membership record. The person may be addressed by the preferred name in the ward” (“Transgender Individuals,” General Handbook: Serving in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 38.6.21).

“The Church does not take a position on the causes of people identifying themselves as transgender” (General Handbook, 38.6.21).

"Before a person begins such therapy, it is important that he or she (and the parents of a minor) understands the potential risks and benefits."

I am concerned about whether this is happening.  

I saw this news item a few days ago:

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SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — Utah’s {} Legislature on Friday gave final approval for a measure that would ban youth from receiving gender-affirming health care like surgery or puberty blockers, bypassing concerns raised by opponents about the measure’s impact on transgender children and teens in the state.

The bill now goes to the desk of {} Gov. Spencer Cox, who hasn’t yet publicly taken a position on the legislation.

It comes as legislators in at least 18 states consider similar bills targeting health care for young transgender people. Montana lawmakers discussed a measure there Friday.

The bills have drawn strong opposition from critics who say it is irresponsible to meddle in important decisions that should be left to parents and their children.

Utah’s measure prohibits transgender surgery for youth and disallows hormone treatments for minors who have not yet been diagnosed with gender dysphoria. The state’s Legislature made the topic a top priority, hearing the first draft just two days after the session started earlier this month.

"{I}t is irresponsible to meddle in important decisions that should be left to parents and their children."  Keep this in mind for later.

And this one, dated three days later:

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Utah’s {} governor on Saturday signed a bill that bans young people who are transgender from receiving gender-affirming healthcare as other states consider similar legislation.

The governor, Spencer Cox, who had not taken a public position on the transgender care measure, signed it a day after the state legislature sent it to his desk. Utah’s measure prohibits transgender surgery for young people and disallows hormone treatments for minors who have not yet been diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

...

Cox’s signing of the bill comes as lawmakers in at least 18 states consider similar legislation taking aim at young transgender people’s healthcare.

In a statement, Cox said that he based his decision to sign the bill on a belief that the safest thing to do was halt “these permanent and life-altering treatments for new patients until more and better research can help determine the long-term consequences”.

He added: “While we understand our words will be of little comfort to those who disagree with us, we sincerely hope that we can treat our transgender families with more love and respect as we work to better understand the science and consequences behind these procedures.”

Utah’s chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union stood among the organizations who had urged Cox to veto the bill, admonishing him in a letter about “the damaging and potentially catastrophic effects this law will have on people’s lives and medical care and the grave violations of people’s constitutional rights it will cause”.

This morning I came across another article by one "Jamie Reed": I Thought I Was Saving Trans Kids. Now I’m Blowing the Whistle.

Some excerpts:

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I am a 42-year-old St. Louis native, a queer woman, and politically to the left of Bernie Sanders. My worldview has deeply shaped my career. I have spent my professional life providing counseling to vulnerable populations: children in foster care, sexual minorities, the poor. 

For almost four years, I worked at The Washington University School of Medicine Division of Infectious Diseases with teens and young adults who were HIV positive. Many of them were trans or otherwise gender nonconforming, and I could relate: Through childhood and adolescence, I did a lot of gender questioning myself. I’m now married to a transman, and together we are raising my two biological children from a previous marriage and three foster children we hope to adopt. 

Hmm.

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All that led me to a job in 2018 as a case manager at The Washington University Transgender Center at St. Louis Children's Hospital, which had been established a year earlier. 

The article later states that Reed left this position in November 2022, meaning she spent 3-4 years there.  Working on a day-to-day basis.

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The center’s working assumption was that the earlier you treat kids with gender dysphoria, the more anguish you can prevent later on. This premise was shared by the center’s doctors and therapists. Given their expertise, I assumed that abundant evidence backed this consensus. 

During the four years I worked at the clinic as a case manager—I was responsible for patient intake and oversight—around a thousand distressed young people came through our doors. The majority of them received hormone prescriptions that can have life-altering consequences—including sterility. 

It seems that the long-term consequences of these medications are perhaps not being fully communicated to the minors and their parents.

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I left the clinic in November of last year because I could no longer participate in what was happening there. By the time I departed, I was certain that the way the American medical system is treating these patients is the opposite of the promise we make to “do no harm.” Instead, we are permanently harming the vulnerable patients in our care.

Today I am speaking out. I am doing so knowing how toxic the public conversation is around this highly contentious issue—and the ways that my testimony might be misused. I am doing so knowing that I am putting myself at serious personal and professional risk.

Almost everyone in my life advised me to keep my head down. But I cannot in good conscience do so. Because what is happening to scores of children is far more important than my comfort. And what is happening to them is morally and medically appalling.

This seems quite an indictment.

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Soon after my arrival at the Transgender Center, I was struck by the lack of formal protocols for treatment. The center’s physician co-directors were essentially the sole authority.

At first, the patient population was tipped toward what used to be the “traditional” instance of a child with gender dysphoria: a boy, often quite young, who wanted to present as—who wanted to be—a girl. 

Until 2015 or so, a very small number of these boys comprised the population of pediatric gender dysphoria cases. Then, across the Western world, there began to be a dramatic increase in a new population: Teenage girls, many with no previous history of gender distress, suddenly declared they were transgender and demanded immediate treatment with testosterone. 

I have read a number of articles about the dramatic increase in purported "gender dysphoria" cases amongst teenage girls.  See, e.g., here, here, here.

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I certainly saw this at the center. One of my jobs was to do intake for new patients and their families. When I started there were probably 10 such calls a month. When I left there were 50, and about 70 percent of the new patients were girls. Sometimes clusters of girls arrived from the same high school. 

I've commented a few times on the potential "social contagion" aspect of this issue (see, e.g., here).

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This concerned me, but didn’t feel I was in the position to sound some kind of alarm back then. There was a team of about eight of us, and only one other person brought up the kinds of questions I had. Anyone who raised doubts ran the risk of being called a transphobe. 

"Ran the risk of being called a transphobe."  

This sort of conclusory and accusatory rhetoric needs to to be addressed.

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The girls who came to us had many comorbidities: depression, anxiety, ADHD, eating disorders, obesity. Many were diagnosed with autism, or had autism-like symptoms. A report last year on a British pediatric transgender center found that about one-third of the patients referred there were on the autism spectrum.

I commented on these comorbidities being ignored back in 2016.

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Frequently, our patients declared they had disorders that no one believed they had. We had patients who said they had Tourette syndrome (but they didn’t); that they had tic disorders (but they didn’t); that they had multiple personalities (but they didn’t). 

A while back one of my daughters matter-of-factly commented that one of her friends had multiple personalities.  Self-diagnosed, apparently.

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The doctors privately recognized these false self-diagnoses as a manifestation of social contagion. They even acknowledged that suicide has an element of social contagion. But when I said the clusters of girls streaming into our service looked as if their gender issues might be a manifestation of social contagion, the doctors said gender identity reflected something innate.

This is concerning to me.  The approach to these issues seems to be driven as much as by ideology (or more so) than by objective, clinical scientific data.

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To begin transitioning, the girls needed a letter of support from a therapist—usually one we recommended—who they had to see only once or twice for the green light. To make it more efficient for the therapists, we offered them a template for how to write a letter in support of transition. The next stop was a single visit to the endocrinologist for a testosterone prescription. 

That’s all it took. 

Wow.  It sounds like the people at the clinic are using these girls as sockpuppets.  

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When a female takes testosterone, the profound and permanent effects of the hormone can be seen in a matter of months. Voices drop, beards sprout, body fat is redistributed. Sexual interest explodes, aggression increases, and mood can be unpredictable. Our patients were told about some side effects, including sterility. But after working at the center, I came to believe that teenagers are simply not capable of fully grasping what it means to make the decision to become infertile while still a minor. 

Having a child is typically not on the immediate decision-making radar of teenagers.  

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Many encounters with patients emphasized to me how little these young people understood the profound impacts changing gender would have on their bodies and minds. But the center downplayed the negative consequences, and emphasized the need for transition. As the center’s website said, “Left untreated, gender dysphoria has any number of consequences, from self-harm to suicide. But when you take away the gender dysphoria by allowing a child to be who he or she is, we’re noticing that goes away. The studies we have show these kids often wind up functioning psychosocially as well as or better than their peers.” 

There are no reliable studies showing this. Indeed, the experiences of many of the center’s patients prove how false these assertions are. 

The "no reliable studies" link above takes you here: The New, Highly Touted Study On Hormones For Transgender Teens Doesn’t Really Tell Us Much Of Anything

Worth a read.

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Here’s an example. On Friday, May 1, 2020, a colleague emailed me about a 15-year-old male patient: “Oh dear. I am concerned that [the patient] does not understand what Bicalutamide does.” I responded: “I don’t think that we start anything honestly right now.”

Bicalutamide is a medication used to treat metastatic prostate cancer, and one of its side effects is that it feminizes the bodies of men who take it, including the appearance of breasts. The center prescribed this cancer drug as a puberty blocker and feminizing agent for boys. As with most cancer drugs, bicalutamide has a long list of side effects, and this patient experienced one of them: liver toxicity. He was sent to another unit of the hospital for evaluation and immediately taken off the drug. Afterward, his mother sent an electronic message to the Transgender Center saying that we were lucky her family was not the type to sue.

"{H}is mother sent an electronic message to the Transgender Center saying that we were lucky her family was not the type to sue."

I can't help but wonder if part of her decision not to sue is fear of being labeled a transphobe.

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How little patients understood what they were getting into was illustrated by a call we received at the center in 2020 from a 17-year-old biological female patient who was on testosterone. <SNIP>

I am omitting the remainder of this paragraph and the following three additional ones.  Read them at the link.  Pretty disturbing stuff.

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Being put on powerful doses of testosterone or estrogen—enough to try to trick your body into mimicking the opposite sex—-affects the rest of the body. I doubt that any parent who's ever consented to give their kid testosterone (a lifelong treatment) knows that they’re also possibly signing their kid up for blood pressure medication, cholesterol medication, and perhaps sleep apnea and diabetes. 

But sometimes the parents’ understanding of what they had agreed to do to their children came forcefully: 

Oi.

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Besides teenage girls, another new group was referred to us: young people from the inpatient psychiatric unit, or the emergency department, of St. Louis Children’s Hospital. The mental health of these kids was deeply concerning—there were diagnoses like schizophrenia, PTSD, bipolar disorder, and more. Often they were already on a fistful of pharmaceuticals.

This was tragic, but unsurprising given the profound trauma some had been through. Yet no matter how much suffering or pain a child had endured, or how little treatment and love they had received, our doctors viewed gender transition—even with all the expense and hardship it entailed—as the solution.

Some weeks it felt as though almost our entire caseload was nothing but disturbed young people. 
<SNIP>

Again, I am snipping the remainder of this part of the article.  Read it at the link.  Pretty troubling stuff.

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Another disturbing aspect of the center was its lack of regard for the rights of parents—and the extent to which doctors saw themselves as more informed decision-makers over the fate of these children.

In Missouri, only one parent’s consent is required for treatment of their child. But when there was a dispute between the parents, it seemed the center always took the side of the affirming parent.

My concerns about this approach to dissenting parents grew in 2019 when one of our doctors actually testified in a custody hearing against a father who opposed a mother’s wish to start their 11-year-old daughter on puberty blockers. 

I had done the original intake call, and I found the mother quite disturbing. She and the father were getting divorced, and the mother described the daughter as “kind of a tomboy.” So now the mother was convinced her child was trans. But when I asked if her daughter had adopted a boy’s name, if she was distressed about her body, if she was saying she felt like a boy, the mother said no. I explained the girl just didn’t meet the criteria for an evaluation. 

Then a month later, the mother called back and said her daughter now used a boy’s name, was in distress over her body, and wanted to transition. This time the mom and daughter were given an appointment. Our providers decided the girl was trans and prescribed a puberty blocker to prevent her normal development. 

Yep.  Sockpuppet.  

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The father adamantly disagreed, said this was all coming from the mother, and a custody battle ensued. After the hearing where our doctor testified in favor of transition, the judge sided with the mother. 

Wow.

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Because I was the main intake person, I had the broadest perspective on our existing and prospective patients. In 2019, a new group of people appeared on my radar: desisters and detransitioners. Desisters choose not to go through with a transition. Detransitioners are transgender people who decide to return to their birth gender. 

The one colleague with whom I was able to share my concerns agreed with me that we should be tracking desistance and detransition. We thought the doctors would want to collect and understand this data in order to figure out what they had missed. 

We were wrong. One doctor wondered aloud why he would spend time on someone who was no longer his patient. 

Yeesh.

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But we created a document anyway and called it the Red Flag list. It was an Excel spreadsheet that tracked the kind of patients that kept my colleague and me up at night. 

One of the saddest cases of detransition I witnessed was a teenage girl, who, like so many of our patients, came from an unstable family, was in an uncertain living situation, and had a history of drug use. The overwhelming majority of our patients are white, but this girl was black. She was put on hormones at the center when she was around 16. When she was 18, she went in for a double mastectomy, what’s known as “top surgery.” 

Three months later she called the surgeon’s office to say she was going back to her birth name and that her pronouns were “she” and “her.” Heartbreakingly, she told the nurse, “I want my breasts back.” The surgeon’s office contacted our office because they didn’t know what to say to this girl.

"I want my breasts back."  How tragic.

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‘Get On Board, Or Get Out’

My concerns about what was going on at the center started to overtake my life. By spring 2020, I felt a medical and moral obligation to do something. So I spoke up in the office, and sent plenty of emails. 

Here’s just one example: On January 6, 2022, I received an email from a staff therapist asking me for help with a case of a 16-year-old transgender male living in another state. “Parents are open to having patient see a therapist but are not supportive of gender and patient does not want parents to be aware of gender identity. I am having a challenging time finding a gender affirming therapist.”

I replied:

“I do not ethically agree with linking a minor patient to a therapist who would be gender affirming with gender as a focus of their work without that being discussed with the parents and the parent agreeing to that kind of care.”

In all my years at the Washington University School of Medicine, I had received solidly positive performance reviews. But in 2021, that changed. I got a below-average mark for my “Judgment” and “Working Relationships/Cooperative Spirit.” Although I was described as “responsible, conscientious, hard-working and productive” the evaluation also noted: “At times Jamie responds poorly to direction from management with defensiveness and hostility.” 

Things came to a head at a half-day retreat in summer of 2022. In front of the team, the doctors said that my colleague and I had to stop questioning the “medicine and the science” as well as their authority. Then an administrator told us we had to “Get on board, or get out.” It became clear that the purpose of the retreat was to deliver these messages to us.

"Get on board, or get out."

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The Washington University system provides a generous college tuition payment program for long-standing employees. I live by my paycheck and have no money to put aside for five college tuitions for my kids. I had to keep my job. I also feel a lot of loyalty to Washington University.

But I decided then and there that I had to get out of the Transgender Center, and to do so, I had to keep my head down and improve my next performance review. 

I managed to get a decent evaluation, and I landed a job conducting research in another part of The Washington University School of Medicine. I gave my notice and left the Transgender Center in November of 2022. 

This does not seem like a healthy state of affairs.

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What I Want to See Happen

For a couple of weeks, I tried to put everything behind me and settled into my new job as a clinical research coordinator, managing studies regarding children undergoing bone marrow transplants. 

Then I came across comments from Dr. Rachel Levine, a transgender woman who is a high official at the federal Department of Health and Human Services. The article read: “Levine, the U.S. assistant secretary for health, said that clinics are proceeding carefully and that no American children are receiving drugs or hormones for gender dysphoria who shouldn’t.”

I felt stunned and sickened. It wasn’t true. And I know that from deep first-hand experience. 

So I started writing down everything I could about my experience at the Transgender Center. Two weeks ago, I brought my concerns and documents to the attention of Missouri’s attorney general. He is a Republican. I am a progressive. But the safety of children should not be a matter for our culture wars. 

Click here to read Jamie Reed’s letter to the Missouri AG.

"{N}o American children are receiving drugs or hormones for gender dysphoria who shouldn’t.”

"Who shouldn't" seems to have all sorts of wiggle room in it.

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Given the secrecy and lack of rigorous standards that characterize youth gender transition across the country, I believe that to ensure the safety of American children, we need a moratorium on the hormonal and surgical treatment of young people with gender dysphoria. 

In the past 15 years, according to Reuters, the U.S. has gone from having no pediatric gender clinics to more than 100. A thorough analysis should be undertaken to find out what has been done to their patients and why—and what the long-term consequences are.

There is a clear path for us to follow. Just last year England shut down the Tavistock Centre, the only youth gender clinic in the country, after an investigation revealed shoddy practices and poor patient treatment. Sweden and Finland, too, have investigated pediatric transition and greatly curbed the practice, finding there is insufficient evidence of help, and danger of great harm. 

Some critics describe the kind of treatment offered at places like the Transgender Center where I worked as a kind of national experiment. But that’s wrong. 

Experiments are supposed to be carefully designed. Hypotheses are supposed to be tested ethically. The doctors I worked alongside at the Transgender Center said frequently about the treatment of our patients: “We are building the plane while we are flying it.” No one should be a passenger on that kind of aircraft.

England had only one "youth gender clinic," and they shut it down.

The United States apparently has "more than 100" (see here).

I am concerned that we are in the thrall of something very unhealthy.  I am grateful that the Church has provided some sound and cautious guidance, but it only works for people who are willing to listen.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

Yep, the growing list of desistance folks and detransitioners.  Chloe Cole seems to be an emerging figurehead.  Quite an impressive young lady, who has a pretty dang tragic story to tell.  I recommend sitting through the whole 2 hour podcast, but if you want to fast forward past Jordan Peterson's long monologue-y parts, I still recommend hearing Chloe's story:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O3MzPeomqs&t=92s

 

So, this is one side of the issue.  I'm willing to sit through someone else's 2 hour podcast (or whatever), if someone would like to send me a source from the other side of the fence.

[Dario_M]

Oh my... that is heavy. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

Breaking news: looks like we’ve got our first whistleblower.  Jamie Reed, who identifies as “a 42-year-old St. Louis native, a queer woman, and politically to the left of Bernie Sanders“, has been working as a case manager since 2018 at the Washington University Transgender Center at St. Louis Children's Hospital.  She has some pretty horrifying things to say:

https://www.thefp.com/p/i-thought-i-was-saving-trans-kids?r=7xe38&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
 

[OGHoosier]

The self is a cruel god, it seems.

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Breaking news: looks like we’ve got our first whistleblower.  Jamie Reed, who identifies as “a 42-year-old St. Louis native, a queer woman, and politically to the left of Bernie Sanders“, has been working as a case manager since 2018 at the Washington University Transgender Center at St. Louis Children's Hospital.  She has some pretty horrifying things to say:

https://www.thefp.com/p/i-thought-i-was-saving-trans-kids?r=7xe38&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
 

That is horrible to read. 

[The Nehor]

Well, we have lots of studies on the aftereffects of transgender care. We know that detransitioning is pretty rare and in what studies I have seen the usual rationale for detransitioning is to escape social scorn and discrimination and only in a minority of cases do they think the transition was a mistake because they want back their old gender.

On the other hand we have one “whistleblower” with a lot of accusations and anecdotes. If these stories are true this needs investigation. That is not why this story has blown up though. This headline will be used to further vilify transgender people, more accusations of nebulous and undefined “grooming”, and laws that will forcefully detransition people. They won’t stop at minors either.

I know transgender people. I have friends who are transgender. This is going to lead to a lot of hurt for them. I know of families that are packing up and leaving states to protect their transgender children. As I said if this were going to lead to an investigation that would investigate bad standards of care and correct those flaws that would be great. It is not. It is being used to justify bans when the research shows a small minority regret their transition. Abortion was the first target because you had the justification of another life being involved. Now they pick on the kids because “they don’t know better”. They are already moving on to denying body autonomy to adults. The myth that rolling back abortion rights was about the life of the infant are proving hollow as bodily autonomy is being denied in more ways. They start with the most vulnerable and then move on up.

 

At the beginning of the 20th century a German clinic operated to study what we would later call the lgbt community and tried to help individuals dealing with gender dysphoria and non heteronormative sexualities. They amassed a lot of research and accounts of the lives of people of that community.

Then the Nazis showed up and knowledge was likely pushed backwards by decades and a lot of information including information on gender affirming care is forever lost.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/

“This has all happened before and it will happen again.”

 

On a very related note remember to punch Nazis.

[OGHoosier]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

On a very related note remember to punch Nazis.

When I see any, I will. 

Haven't seen any in over 70 years. Hitler reportedly liked dogs, though, so I'm gonna go vandalize a PetSmart.

I will note that we are behind the curve on recognizing the true weakness of most published research in this field. The catechism of American progressivism no doubt hampers us in this regard. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

The catechism of American progressivism no doubt hampers us in this regard. 

None more so than the (historically, anthropologically, and linguistically unsupported but politically useful) dogma that people are 'born that way':

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Frequently, our patients declared they had disorders that no one believed they had. We had patients who said they had Tourette syndrome (but they didn’t); that they had tic disorders (but they didn’t); that they had multiple personalities (but they didn’t). 

The doctors privately recognized these false self-diagnoses as a manifestation of social contagion. They even acknowledged that suicide has an element of social contagion. But when I said the clusters of girls streaming into our service looked as if their gender issues might be a manifestation of social contagion, the doctors said gender identity reflected something innate.

 

[The Nehor]

On a less charged and more practical note there were some allegations that should be easy to prove. The affadavit included an accusation that the center was using incorrect treatment codes to defraud insurance companies and the government so if that pans out the other allegations will have more credibility.

This whole thing doesn’t pass the smell test for me. If more people step forward maybe. We are talking about large-scale medical malpractice and fraud that continued for years and only one person steps forward? Seems unlikely.

For anyone interested the affadavit: https://www.docdroid.net/XmWvr3A/jamie-reed-affidavit-pdf

From the affadavit: “In more than four years working at the clinic, I witnessed only two examples of the doctors deciding not to prescribe cross-sex hormones or puberty blockers for a child who met the four basic criteria.” This should also be pretty easy to check. There are also allegations about a general lack of record keeping which should be easy to check.

Claims that kids are identifying as a rock, a mushroom, and a helicopter? Possible but the “I identify as an attack helicopter” is an old joke and makes me wonder where that came from. Most of the otherkin culture identify as animals or mythical creatures. I briefly dated a werewolf once. There are concepkin and objectkin that get more abstract or identify as objects but they usually pick something a little more aesthetically interesting (for lack of a better word) like a cloud or a star.

Weird.

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

None more so than the (historically, anthropologically, and linguistically unsupported but politically useful) dogma that people are 'born that way':

 

Whether someone is born that way, becomes that way through epigenetics or environmental factors, or whatever proof that someone was not ‘born that way’ doesn’t help if you have no way to ‘change it back’.

[The Nehor]

38 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

When I see any, I will. 

Haven't seen any in over 70 years. Hitler reportedly liked dogs, though, so I'm gonna go vandalize a PetSmart.

I will note that we are behind the curve on recognizing the true weakness of most published research in this field. The catechism of American progressivism no doubt hampers us in this regard. 

Maybe if the Nazis hadn’t burned all the research. If the research is not to be trusted then even the cherry-picked stuff I see people quoting suggesting that purberty blockers cause harm and the like can’t be trusted either?

I see Nazis everywhere. I am Bisexual and identify as a young dragon named Edward that joined the Allied invasion at Normandy. THERE ARE NAZIS EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!

If you can’t find Nazis though then punch fascists. I am okay with that too.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Whether someone is born that way, becomes that way through epigenetics or environmental factors, or whatever proof that someone was not ‘born that way’ doesn’t help if you have no way to ‘change it back’.

Where I live, queer activists have been busy getting their allies in 'progressive' governments to criminalise the very concept. We have an active, faithful father in our ward who literally can be fined and sent to gaol if he speaks out in any way against the transgender proselyting that his very autistic daughter was exposed to at her government-run special school ... or if he even suggests that she might benefit from professional counselling. (The apostate mum, in contrast, is legally allowed to encourage the situation and revel in the outcome.)

Preaching that people have no agency (and then legally blocking any debate on that topic) is the doctrine of devils, one preached from the beginning by the father of all lies, and one that the Book of Mormon repeatedly identifies as inherently anti-Christ. (I don't think we fully appreciate yet how much this book was written for our day.)

Edited February 10 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I see Nazis everywhere.

The most accurate post you've made today!

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The most accurate post you've made today!

Really? I set that ironic self-deprecating joke up and you think it is a ‘zinger’ to point it out?

I weep for humanity.

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Where I live, queer activists have been busy getting their allies in 'progressive' governments to criminalise the very concept. We have an active, faithful father in our ward who literally can be fined and sent to gaol if he speaks out in any way against the transgender proselyting that his very autistic daughter was exposed to at her government-run special school ... or if he even suggests that she might benefit from professional counselling. (The apostate mum, in contrast, is legally allowed to encourage the situation and revel in the outcome.)

Preaching that people have no agency (and then legally blocking any debate on that topic) is the doctrine of devils, one preached from the beginning by the father of all lies, and one that the Book of Mormon repeatedly identifies as inherently anti-Christ.

Has he considered seeking asylum in Florida?

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I weep for humanity.

The most inaccurate post you've made today!

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The most inaccurate post you've made today!

I do weep for humanity. To be fair I also laugh a lot to try to stay sane.

Therapist: You've started calling objectively awful things "insanely good" to protect yourself from how awful the world is.
Me: lol that owns!

I am basically a Joker origin story but I am sure it will turn out fine in the end.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I am basically a Joker origin story but I am sure it will turn out fine in the end.

That's an interesting choice of origin story to embrace.

I prefer my choice: son of divine Parents, endowed with agency through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

I likewise feel sure that it will turn out fine for me in the end.

To each his own, of course! 

Edited February 10 by Hamba Tuhan

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

On the other hand we have one “whistleblower” with a lot of accusations and anecdotes.

And a public detransitioner:  https://twitter.com/ChoooCole

 

And a small study in 2016 from a long-cancelled therapist in Toronto: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-transgender-battle-line-childhood-1451952794

Quote

Of the boys and girls seen in clinics like Dr. Zucker’s, a high percentage—up to 80% in a study of 44 gender-dysphoric boys—grow up to be not transgender, but bisexual, gay or lesbian adults. Thus, helping prepubescent children feel comfortable in their birth sex makes more sense than starting a lifetime of hormonal treatments and surgeries that will in all likelihood turn out to be unnecessary and unwanted.

 

 

And a clear and obvious warning in 2021 that the exploding transgender phenomenon showed signs of being a social contagion: https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/958742

Quote

In 2017, 3-4 in 100 teens in the United States reported that they are or may be transgender. A more recent 2021 study suggests that the rate of transgender identification among America's youth may be as high as 9 in 100. All of the major gender centers in the world have reported a several-thousand-percent increase in youth presenting with gender distress.

 

And new for February, the chief psychiatrist at Finland’s largest pediatric gender clinic saying four out of five children grow out of their gender confusion: https://www.dailywire.com/news/finlands-leading-gender-dysphoria-expert-says-4-out-of-5-children-grow-out-of-gender-confusion and https://www-hs-fi.translate.goog/tiede/art-2000009348478.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Quote

Dr. Kaltiala explained that while it is “important to accept the child as they are,” it is also necessary to recognize that it is common for children to strongly identify with the opposite sex at some point in their lives, but four out of five children who identify as transgender will grow out of it during puberty.

 

 

@The Nehor, I reiterate my offer:  "So, this is one side of the issue.  I'm willing to sit through someone else's 2 hour podcast (or whatever), if someone would like to send me a source from the other side of the fence."  I'm offering you the chance to influence my still-forming opinions by providing relevant studies and data.  So far, all you're offering is a "trust me bro", putting 'whistleblower' in scare quotes, a 90 year old bit of history from Nazi Germany, and vague allusions a joker origin story that continues to worry folks.  Throw something at me with some substance, man.  And stop acting so unstable.

 

Edited February 10 by LoudmouthMormon

[The Nehor]

56 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

That's an interesting choice of origin story to embrace.

I prefer my choice: son of divine Parents, endowed with agency through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

I likewise feel sure that it will turn out fine for me in the end.

To each his own, of course! 

Same but I also authored the little-known third plan in the council in heaven where I suggested Adam and Eve eat the knowledge of good and evil fruit and then the tree of life fruit again and live forever in their sins and none shall be saved, NO, not one! It was the least popular of the three plans.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

And a public detransitioner:  https://twitter.com/ChoooCole

Okay.

6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

And a small study in 2016 from a long-cancelled therapist in Toronto: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-transgender-battle-line-childhood-1451952794

Yeah, she was so cancelled she now makes a living writing books and articles and doing podcasts. What does "cancelled" mean nowadays exactly? Is it like "woke" and used without any conception of what it means?

And what study did she do? I looked over her bio and it looks like all her academic work is in paraphilia and pedophilia.

6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

And a clear and obvious warning in 2021 that the exploding transgender phenomenon showed signs of being a social contagion: https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/958742

I just took my time reading all five pages and can't find this conclusion. The main finding appears to be that it is a lot of teens and adults with autism and adhd transitioning compared to in the past which.....yeah, no notes from me. Unless you are arguing autism and adhd are social contagions. Oh, and left-handedness is tied to gender dysphoria, non hetero sexualities, and all kinds of kinks and fetishes. I remember when we tried to cure that aberration.

6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

And new for February, the chief psychiatrist at Finland’s largest pediatric gender clinic saying four out of five children grow out of their gender confusion: https://www.dailywire.com/news/finlands-leading-gender-dysphoria-expert-says-4-out-of-5-children-grow-out-of-gender-confusion and https://www-hs-fi.translate.goog/tiede/art-2000009348478.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

This is based on a real study but it is not the smoking gun some imagine it to be. First off the study was flawed in several ways. It was conducted when dysphoria was still used to describe behaviors not associated with people with dysphoria. If a prepubescent boy wants to put on a dress that could have been classed as dysphoria even if the kid had no desire to be a girl. This also handily explains why dysphoria was so heavily identified in men. There is more clothing and mannerisms a boy can display that will get him labeled as feminine. A girl might act more masculine but that is (in western culture) less of a taboo though some will of course try to correct it. They probably wouldn't take the girl to a therapist though. The study also assumed that anyone they couldn't contact for a report on the long-term status of the person must have been cured of dysphoria which is not how that works.

Okay, even with all that the numbers of children who are cured of dysphoria by the time of adulthood is high. This is pretty well known and that is why there is a big distinction between prepubescent children with dysphoria and kids going through puberty that get it or still have it. Puberty blockers are almost never used before the person hits puberty. This is because the very early stage of puberty often wipes out dysphoria. Your body is flooded with hormones, sexual desire kicks in, and the like. After that is when puberty blockers are brought in if dysphoria persists or appears. Often the dysphoria comes later and the puberty blockers are used later.

Are puberty blockers safe? Not entirely. Is there a good discussion worth having about when they should and should not be used? Yes. Is the United States capable of having that discussion right now? Absolutely not.

Another stone lobbed at transgender care is that puberty blockers don't improve the satisfaction of those taking them and don't lessen dysphoria. A little reflection should reveal how ridiculous this argument is.

In regards to the detransitioning thing most don't regret it or decide it was the wrong choice. I haven't found anything more current but there might be something. I looked at this last time I was looking into transgender transitioning:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8213007/

The article showed that about 13% of those who sought gender affirming care (a lot of transgender people don't) detransitioned. That number is also high when you look at the causes. This study of the data attempted to differentiate between external causes (social pressure from family, can't blend in, employment pressures, general discrimination, can't afford the cost, think it means they will never find a partner, being the target of sexual violence, and the like) and internal causes (doubts about the care or that they are even transgender or outright deciding they are not). The latter can be attributed most of the time to regret. The external causes generally mean they wish they didn't detransition but the downsides brought on by others and social and economic status made continuing seem like a bad decision.

There is a separate study about those who had what is commonly called "bottom surgery" (gonadectomy) and the rates of surgical regret were less than 1% for both men and women. Even most of those regrets were driven more by stigma.

6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

 

@The Nehor, I reiterate my offer:  "So, this is one side of the issue.  I'm willing to sit through someone else's 2 hour podcast (or whatever), if someone would like to send me a source from the other side of the fence."  I'm offering you the chance to influence my still-forming opinions by providing relevant studies and data.  So far, all you're offering is a "trust me bro", putting 'whistleblower' in scare quotes, a 90 year old bit of history from Nazi Germany, and vague allusions a joker origin story that continues to worry folks. 

I love how you assume I am somehow duty bound to educate and then you invite me to do so in such a condescending manner while suggesting your anecdotes and bad reads on studies are superior to my transition into the Joker.

6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Throw something at me with some substance, man.

This post is probably all I am going to do. Enjoy.

6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

And stop acting so unstable.

Acting?

[Calm]

7 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

And stop acting so unstable.

 

Quote

BANNED BEHAVIORS include but are not limited to:….
• Personal attacks or squabbles (dispute opinions not persons)

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66539-board-guidelines-update-please-review-before-posting/

 

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There is a separate study about those who had what is commonly called "bottom surgery" (gonadectomy) and the rates of surgical regret were less than 1% for both men and women.

I would be interested in this….I am surprised it is this low for two different complicated surgeries given just basic issues with surgery recovery, problems with scar tissues in reconstructive surgery, potential damage of other organs in the area….complications I have heard about with hysterectomies for example.  Then there are the side effects from hormone therapy.  I would like to see the time frame, measurements of lingering pain and other side effects.

Edited February 10 by Calm

[Calm]

Is this the study?  If so, did they exclude regret based on surgery complications?

Quote

Table 1. - Pfäfflin and Kuiper and Cohen-Kettenis Categories of Regret

Minor Feeling of regret secondary to surgical complications or social problems.

Major“True” regret. Feeling of dysphoria secondary to the new appearance, or desires of pursuing a de-transition surgery.

Clear regretPatients openly express their regret and have role reversal either by undergoing de-transition surgery or returning to their former gender role.

Regret uncertainPatients don’t have role reversal, but freely express their regret by never considering doing GAS or pass through the same preoperative scenario again. They are truly disappointed with the results of GAS. Also, they don’t consider the new gender role so difficult and might consider a second GAS.

RegretPatients have role reversal but don’t express their feelings of regret. Some might state that they are happy about their decision and consider themselves as transgender. However, they live as their former gender role for practical and social reasons.

Regret assumed by othersDon’t have role reversal and don’t express feelings of regret but have unfavorable social circumstances or psychological disturbances that raise concerns to relatives, clinicians, and others that patient might be regretful (eg, feeling loneliness, suicide attempts).

 

 

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is this the study?  If so, did they exclude regret based on surgery complications?

 

The study I linked to had a bunch of options about why you detransitioned and that wasn’t one of the options. There was another option to give a more personalized response. There were some examples to show how they rated personalized responses at external or internal or both. I didn’t see surgery complications but I am guessing they would rate that as external.