The Lord's Storehouse: A Divine Principle of Meeting Needs

[MustardSeed]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

How is it the Lord's Money now?  Men manage it. If they are not infallible they can get it wrong.

It’s about perspective right? Symbolism. When I paid my tithing I believe God knows that I’ve handed it to him when literally I’ve handed it to Brother Davidson. I am OK trusting the untrustable humans.  We are talking spiritual offerings of the self.  If I hand brother Davidson  an Envelope of cash $2000 and he puts it on the roof of his car and drives off, my offering stands regarding where my heart is. *IMO*

 

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

According to the D&C, that is a major purpose of tithing.  It seems the church has enough to keep the other purpose of tithing (building/expanding the temporal needs of the church) going uninterrupted for some time from their investments.   That means, any new tithes could theoretically (again, excluding the possibility of some other huge investment or disaster that has been revealed for the church to save for) be used to support the other stated purpose of tithing - humanitarian aide.

The church uses tithing for humanitarian aide all the time.  I guess the only difference is that it has been consecrated by the Lord for that specific purpose.  This would be no different, except that we would be blessed with the opportunity to take a more active role in that aide. 

Looks like someone else already came up with this idea.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/07/22/latest-mormon-land-new/

He started a change.org petition last year and so far it’s gotten a little over 2200 signatures. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by bluebell

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I like to tithe and get the concrete write off  

You mean for tax reasons?  Why couldn't you get a write off in this other way?  IT doesn't seem that complicated to me.  It is a charitable donation. 

12 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m with the camp that says letting go of control is a spiritual exercise. 

I agree that letting go of ones will in submission to the Lord's is an important spiritual exercise - which is why I wouldn't go rouge and do this on my own.  I don't see why people are making this about control though.  The Lord provides us a measure of autonomy, agency, and personal discretion in how we fulfil our callings under the direction and priesthood authority of church leadership.  This would be no different.  

Setting apart 10% of your hard earned income to support the stated purposes of tithing, still requires letting go of control.  You are still making an incredible sacrifice as the Lord directs, even though you may wish to use it for landscaping your yard.  There is still a level of submission to the Lord.  

Charitable giving is also a spiritual exercise.  One which would create stronger community bonds with members of the church and help many who desperately could use it. 

[Teancum]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Because right now tithing and humanitarian aid are seen as two separate things.  But under Pogi’s plan, it sounds like they would be the same thing.

So change it. 

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Looks like someone else already came up with this idea.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/07/22/latest-mormon-land-new/

He started a change.org petition last year and so far it’s gotten a little over 2200 signatures. 

Wow, thanks for sharing the link.  I am going to sign the petition. 

This was interesting:

Quote

“At tithing settlement this year, I declared myself a full-tithe payer and explained why none of that money has gone to the church,” she wrote. “... At least a few kids who didn’t have food or access to education will have meals, school and the basics.”

I wonder what the bishops response was.  It doesn't say if he let her keep her temple recommend or not.  That is pretty dangerous territory. 
 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

Wow, thanks for sharing the link.  I am going to sign the petition. 

This was interesting:

I wonder what the bishops response was.  It doesn't say if he let her keep her temple recommend or not.  That is pretty dangerous territory. 
 

It would probably depend on the bishop. 

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

So change it. 

Perhaps I have given you the wrong idea, but I don’t have the authority to do that.

[Teancum]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Perhaps I have given you the wrong idea, but I don’t have the authority to do that.

Not you.  The leaders. is there some prohibition from using tithing for humanitarian aid?

[ksfisher]

53 minutes ago, Teancum said:

More blind obedience?

No.  I know you see it that way, but it is not. 

[ksfisher]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

Wow, thanks for sharing the link.  I am going to sign the petition. 

This was interesting:

I wonder what the bishops response was.  It doesn't say if he let her keep her temple recommend or not.  That is pretty dangerous territory. 
 

A long time ago on the radio show "Prairie Home Companion" I remember Garrison Keillor making a joke about how, in the Unitarian version of heaven, there was a half hour set aside each day for protest.  This would seem right at home there. 

[Teancum]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

Wow, thanks for sharing the link.  I am going to sign the petition. 

This was interesting:

I wonder what the bishops response was.  It doesn't say if he let her keep her temple recommend or not.  That is pretty dangerous territory. 
 

I can't imagine any bishop accepting anything other than a tithe to the church as a TR qualifying tithe. I would not have as a bishop and I was pretty easy about strict interpretation of things especially the last couple years as my faith in the church was unraveling then. I had one member who was behind on tithing and she thought she had to catch up. I told her just start paying it now and forward and if she did that for a month or two I would sign the TR. Other bishops I knew felt back tithing should be paid.

[Teancum]

4 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

No.  I know you see it that way, but it is not. 

That is the way almost anyone who is not a true believer would see it. I used to see it that way.

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Not you.  The leaders. is there some prohibition from using tithing for humanitarian aid?

I don't think so. But they are still seen as two separate things.

[bluebell]

48 minutes ago, pogi said:

Wow, thanks for sharing the link.  I am going to sign the petition. 

This was interesting:

I wonder what the bishops response was.  It doesn't say if he let her keep her temple recommend or not.  That is pretty dangerous territory. 
 

At least now you don't have to try and get the idea to Pres. Nelson yourself.   

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

You mean for tax reasons?  Why couldn't you get a write off in this other way?  IT doesn't seem that complicated to me.  It is a charitable donation. 

Because I pay one time end of year and it’s easy to track with a legit receipt from the church. I know myself well enough to know that if I left it up to myself I would end up just giving a lot of money away with no paper trail. Too hard for me to track.

 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

agree that letting go of ones will in submission to the Lord's is an important spiritual exercise - which is why I wouldn't go rouge and do this on my own.  I don't see why people are making this about control though.  The Lord provides us a measure of autonomy, agency, and personal discretion in how we fulfil our callings under the direction and priesthood authority of church leadership.  This would be no different.  

Setting apart 10% of your hard earned income to support the stated purposes of tithing, still requires letting go of control.  You are still making an incredible sacrifice as the Lord directs, even though you may wish to use it for landscaping your yard.  There is still a level of submission to the Lord.  

Charitable giving is also a spiritual exercise.  One which would create stronger community bonds with members of the church and help many who desperately could use it. 

Fair enough 🥰

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

You mean for tax reasons?  Why couldn't you get a write off in this other way?  IT doesn't seem that complicated to me.  It is a charitable donation. 

I agree that letting go of ones will in submission to the Lord's is an important spiritual exercise - which is why I wouldn't go rouge and do this on my own.  I don't see why people are making this about control though.  The Lord provides us a measure of autonomy, agency, and personal discretion in how we fulfil our callings under the direction and priesthood authority of church leadership.  This would be no different.  

Setting apart 10% of your hard earned income to support the stated purposes of tithing, still requires letting go of control.  You are still making an incredible sacrifice as the Lord directs, even though you may wish to use it for landscaping your yard.  There is still a level of submission to the Lord.  

Charitable giving is also a spiritual exercise.  One which would create stronger community bonds with members of the church and help many who desperately could use it. 

For me, the sacrifice and submission required isn't the same.

I know a few people personally who stopped paying tithing because they didn't like what the Lord's representatives were doing with it, and instead wanted to be able to control where it went.

That's why I personally see tithing as being an issue of faith and control.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

You mean for tax reasons?  Why couldn't you get a write off in this other way?  IT doesn't seem that complicated to me.  It is a charitable donation. 

I agree that letting go of ones will in submission to the Lord's is an important spiritual exercise - which is why I wouldn't go rouge and do this on my own.  I don't see why people are making this about control though.  The Lord provides us a measure of autonomy, agency, and personal discretion in how we fulfil our callings under the direction and priesthood authority of church leadership.  This would be no different.  

Setting apart 10% of your hard earned income to support the stated purposes of tithing, still requires letting go of control.  You are still making an incredible sacrifice as the Lord directs, even though you may wish to use it for landscaping your yard.  There is still a level of submission to the Lord.  

Charitable giving is also a spiritual exercise.  One which would create stronger community bonds with members of the church and help many who desperately could use it. 

I wasn't able to put much to non church charities for years, my husband believed tithing was a good way for money to get to humanitarian needs. So it's been nice now, and I did it without too much grief from hubby. In 2022 I was able to donate to Wendy's Dave Thomas's Foundation for adoption, Smile Train that fixes cleft palates in children (my grandmother had one), The Adopt-A-Native-Elder program, Utah Food Bank's Utah Human Race, and a charity for suicidal youth. 

And they all added up to a good sum, not quite the tithing we'd pay yearly but I'm getting there without too much backlash from my husband. 

[pogi]

40 minutes ago, bluebell said:

At least now you don't have to try and get the idea to Pres. Nelson yourself.   

That's crazy to me that this is going around.  It reminds me of the phenomenon of simultaneous invention or discovery in science.  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30077243/#:~:text=Multiple discovery also known as,by multiple scientists and inventors.

[OGHoosier]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Capital does not circulate when you buy a stock and hold it.  It does if you are selling and buying.  The cash reserves would be circulating.

The cash reserves are the capital that I'm talking about. A stock is a piece of paper, not the money in question.

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

So the church needs a $100 billion of stocks and other investments for what important purpose?  And I do not think he is proposing to do away with them in total.

Functional security, protection against prejudicial litigation, any number of things. Nobody owes you a reason.

Yeah, pogi's proposal would do away with them in total, because he would do away with tithing revenue in total. Thus the entire yearly maintenance of the Church would have to come from the reserves, drawing them down over time. It wouldn't be long before they were exhausted.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

The cash reserves are the capital that I'm talking about. A stock is a piece of paper, not the money in question.

Ok

1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

Functional security, protection against prejudicial litigation, any number of things. Nobody owes you a reason.

I asked you what you thought.  I did not say I was owed a reason. I don't donate any more though I imagine some of my hundreds of thousands of $ is at work at EPA.  

1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

Yeah, pogi's proposal would do away with them in total, because he would do away with tithing revenue in total. Thus the entire yearly maintenance of the Church would have to come from the reserves, drawing them down over time. It wouldn't be long before they were exhausted.

The church could run off the interest from EPA.  There could be a plan on how much to put to work based on Pogi's plan.  It would not draw down the entire funds because nobody would be  that stupid. It is not an all or nothing idea.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

Yeah, pogi's proposal would do away with them in total, because he would do away with tithing revenue in total. Thus the entire yearly maintenance of the Church would have to come from the reserves, drawing them down over time. It wouldn't be long before they were exhausted.

If living off the profits of church investments/businesses and interest from the EPA is not enough, I provided for this option:

On 1/30/2023 at 1:12 PM, pogi said:

 If there comes a time (unlikely) where the church needs additional funds to support its efforts, it may ask for a percentage of your tithing be paid directly to the church.  Until then, we expect you to go out and serve and do much good."

 

[Kenngo1969]

On 1/30/2023 at 4:30 PM, pogi said:

Granted, the brethren may have some prophetic, long-sighted, seeristic vision with a specific purpose for these funds, but they are not letting that on to us. ...

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear"?

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear"?

Christ used those words in relation to spoken teachings and parable.  To what spoken words or parable are you refereeing to?

 

[Kenngo1969]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

Christ used those words in relation to spoken teachings and parable.  To what spoken words or parable are you refereeing to?

 

I'm sorry, but I'm not likely to make any further substantive contributions to the thread.  If you don't think those words are relevant to this discussion, that's perfectly fine.

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm sorry, but I'm not likely to make any further substantive contributions to the thread.  If you don't think those words are relevant to this discussion, that's perfectly fine.

That's ok. 

I think they could be relevant, I just don't know what specific words/teachings/parables you are referring to that we should let our ears hear in this case.