The Lord's Storehouse: A Divine Principle of Meeting Needs

[Vanguard]

20 hours ago, pogi said:

Crazy idea I had the other day that I want to throw out there into the ether.  

How would you feel if in the up-coming general conference President Nelson announced another huge change, this time in relation to tithing .  It would look like this -

Words of the prophet: 

"Through the use of wise financial practices and principles of self-reliance, the church has secured enough funds to support itself financially for the foreseeable future.  No, the law of tithing is not being abolished with this news, but will be refocused on principles outlined in scripture for the purposes of "administering to the poor and the needy (D&C 42:34).   In an effort to ignite a spirit of service and charity and recommit our members to the law of tithing in lifting our fellow men and helping to aid in the spirit of missionary work, from this time forward tithing funds donated to the bishop will be collected, recorded, consecrated and returned to the members with the direction to use it for the purposes of lifting those in need.   The church will provide a list of vetted charities and worthy organizations where your funds can be used for much good.  Or, if you wish, use these consecrated funds as directed by the spirit to serve those in need around you - to help family in a time of need, to donate to a charity close to your heart, to donate to medical science or to improve stewardship over the earth by donating to environmental causes which affect us all.  By so doing, we hope that our members will become an unprecedented force for good in the world that will draw people unto us and draw attention to our cause in new and magnified ways, and instill a greater sense of purpose and meaning through direct experience with the utilization of your tithing to bless and minister to others in unprecedented ways.  Allowing our members to serve in ways which may not have been financially possible before. 

While it is not required, where possible, we encourage members to not simply give money, but to donate time and talents which can be supported by your tithing.  This can help finance your own service, humanitarian, or medical missions locally and abroad.   If there comes a time (unlikely) where the church needs additional funds to support its efforts, it may ask for a percentage of your tithing be paid directly to the church.  Until then, we expect you to go out and serve and do much good."

I think this would be a game changer for the church in terms of missionary efforts and igniting a spirit in its membership in really profound ways and in making a greater impact for good on the world.     

It seems to fall in line with the principles outlined in this article about the purposes of the storehouse:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/lords-storehouse-a-divine-principle-of-meeting-needs?lang=eng

What is the Lord's storehouse?  Could such a change in the law of tithing be supported by how "storehouse" is defined?  Lets see:

We are the Lords storehouse.  According to Thomas S. Monson.

Does anyone know the direct email of President Nelson to put this bug in his ear like Emma Smith did with Joseph in relation to the Wow? 

What think ye?  Could this work in the church?  Does it meet the doctrinal principles of tithing?

 

My first thought about what to do with the modest amount of money each month was how much I could help those within my social circle (including my own family). I think there would be a lot of great good my wife and I could do. My immediate 2nd thought was that after a few months of this I would start rationalizing how the money might be better spent for my own material wealth (trust me, I can rationalize this!). Before I knew it, my tithe monies would be a checkerboard of well-intentioned donations and such, along with lots of new debt that I would incur from having used the money to 'upgrade' my car and purchase a new pop-up tent trailer... ; )

Edited January 31, 2023 by Vanguard

[bluebell]

21 hours ago, pogi said:

Crazy idea I had the other day that I want to throw out there into the ether.  

How would you feel if in the up-coming general conference President Nelson announced another huge change, this time in relation to tithing .  It would look like this -

Words of the prophet: 

"Through the use of wise financial practices and principles of self-reliance, the church has secured enough funds to support itself financially for the foreseeable future.  No, the law of tithing is not being abolished with this news, but will be refocused on principles outlined in scripture for the purposes of "administering to the poor and the needy (D&C 42:34).   In an effort to ignite a spirit of service and charity and recommit our members to the law of tithing in lifting our fellow men and helping to aid in the spirit of missionary work, from this time forward tithing funds donated to the bishop will be collected, recorded, consecrated and returned to the members with the direction to use it for the purposes of lifting those in need.   The church will provide a list of vetted charities and worthy organizations where your funds can be used for much good.  Or, if you wish, use these consecrated funds as directed by the spirit to serve those in need around you - to help family in a time of need, to donate to a charity close to your heart, to donate to medical science or to improve stewardship over the earth by donating to environmental causes which affect us all.  By so doing, we hope that our members will become an unprecedented force for good in the world that will draw people unto us and draw attention to our cause in new and magnified ways, and instill a greater sense of purpose and meaning through direct experience with the utilization of your tithing to bless and minister to others in unprecedented ways.  Allowing our members to serve in ways which may not have been financially possible before. 

While it is not required, where possible, we encourage members to not simply give money, but to donate time and talents which can be supported by your tithing.  This can help finance your own service, humanitarian, or medical missions locally and abroad.   If there comes a time (unlikely) where the church needs additional funds to support its efforts, it may ask for a percentage of your tithing be paid directly to the church.  Until then, we expect you to go out and serve and do much good."

I think this would be a game changer for the church in terms of missionary efforts and igniting a spirit in its membership in really profound ways and in making a greater impact for good on the world.     

It seems to fall in line with the principles outlined in this article about the purposes of the storehouse:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/lords-storehouse-a-divine-principle-of-meeting-needs?lang=eng

What is the Lord's storehouse?  Could such a change in the law of tithing be supported by how "storehouse" is defined?  Lets see:

We are the Lords storehouse.  According to Thomas S. Monson.

Does anyone know the direct email of President Nelson to put this bug in his ear like Emma Smith did with Joseph in relation to the Wow? 

What think ye?  Could this work in the church?  Does it meet the doctrinal principles of tithing?

 

I don't know that it works with the principle of tithing because I always thought that it was the "trust" and faith part that was the most important.  The actual giving of the money or goods to the Lord to let Him decide what to do with it, rather than us deciding what is best, part.

How is it the Lord's money if we keep it and then also decide what to do with it.

How is it then any different from our money?

Edited January 31, 2023 by bluebell

[Calm]

53 minutes ago, pogi said:

  But do I have absolute confidence that brethren are not just following a specific financial plan that they have used for a very long time which has worked really, really well - so why stop now - without any specific intention or plan for the funds they have built up

I highly doubt this is what is happening given how often we see changes in programs in other areas. It would be the one area they leave as is if so, it seems to me.  I think it makes more sense to see how they approach developing the Church in other areas to guess how it works in the financial side of things. 

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Before I knew it, my tithe monies would be a checkerboard of well-intentioned donations and such, along with lots of new debt that I would incur from having used the money to 'upgrade' my car and purchase a new pop-up tent trailer... ; )

I could see easily rationalizing using the money on oneself because it would make it easier to help others, as that is how I have rationalized putting money into the house to make it work better for me, including purely cosmetic improvements to provide an uplifting, comforting environment. If I am better off, I am less a burden for my husband in the future and I can help my daughter get better and maybe even get more involved in others’ lives. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't know that it works with the principle of tithing because I always thought that it was the "trust" and faith part that was the most important.  The actual giving of the money or goods to the Lord to let Him decide what to do with it, rather than us deciding what is best, part.

How is it the Lord's money if we keep it and then also decide what to do with it.  How is it any different from our money?

It might be similar to part of the United Order in that I believe you consecrated all your belongings, but were given back a stewardship over at least a portion. (There were different forms, so this isn’t necessarily true for all and no doubt there is nuance I am missing).

For me, it doesn’t seem that efficient and I think it could cut down on effectiveness because I thinking combining resources to give a big boost is for some projects more effective in the long run than having smaller, but steadier donations.  And others are better with longterm, smaller donations. This isn’t information we could easily find.  It would need to come from specialists and why not just give the money to them to ensure there is enough where needed and not too much where it isn’t. 

We could run it like the giving machines at Christmas, but I see that as not that useful as the primary approach. 

Also seems like there would be a lot of paperwork tracking it all unless one just reported to the bishop and got a pass/fail remark at tithing settlement.

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Calm

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't know that it works with the principle of tithing because I always thought that it was the "trust" and faith part that was the most important. 

The scriptures don't really mention "trust" as the primary purpose of tithing.  They outline the specific purposes in the D&C, mentioned in the OP, it is to 1) administer to the poor and the needy, 2) for the financial maintenance, building, and general temporal financial support of the church in building up the church and kingdom.    Overall, the stated purpose of tithing is to administer to the poor/needy and to help the church grow.  I think this would improve both of those stated purposed. 

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The actual giving of the money or goods to the Lord to let Him decide what to do with it, rather than us deciding what is best, part.

I don't see why letting us take a more direct role in tithing could not be under the Lord's direction and decision of what to do with it.   What if it was the Lord's decision to use tithing this way for the welfare of mankind in a way that benefits the membership with increased purpose and meaning in their lives while increasing opportunities for missionary efforts significantly?  I could see it.  

Think of it like a mission.  I was always taught that we are on the Lords time and the Lords errand, but the Lord places that time and errand in our hands to decide what to do with it. 

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

How is it the Lord's money if we keep it and then also decide what to do with it.  How is it any different from our money?

Because it would be recorded in church records as consecrated donations specifically for the purposes outlined in the scriptures.  It is the Lords money, we would simply take a more direct role in administering the Lords money.  It would be no different from how the scriptures specifically state it should be used, except that the Lord would be allowing us a more direct role in the function of the tithe.   

[bluebell]

42 minutes ago, pogi said:

The scriptures don't really mention "trust" as the primary purpose of tithing.  They outline the specific purposes in the D&C, mentioned in the OP, it is to 1) administer to the poor and the needy, 2) for the financial maintenance, building, and general temporal financial support of the church in building up the church and kingdom.    Overall, the stated purpose of tithing is to administer to the poor/needy and to help the church grow.  I think this would improve both of those stated purposed. 

I don't see why letting us take a more direct role in tithing could not be under the Lord's direction and decision of what to do with it.   What if it was the Lord's decision to use tithing this way for the welfare of mankind in a way that benefits the membership with increased purpose and meaning in their lives while increasing opportunities for missionary efforts significantly?  I could see it.  

Think of it like a mission.  I was always taught that we are on the Lords time and the Lords errand, but the Lord places that time and errand in our hands to decide what to do with it. 

Because it would be recorded in church records as consecrated donations specifically for the purposes outlined in the scriptures.  It is the Lords money, we would simply take a more direct role in administering the Lords money.  It would be no different from how the scriptures specifically state it should be used, except that the Lord would be allowing us a more direct role in the function of the tithe.   

Well, I guess if it ever happens you can say “see I knew it would work!”  

I’ve personally got my doubts about it being a new way to tithe. It’s all theoretical at this point though.

[rpn]

Haven't read anything but OP.  

Tithing isn't about the money.  Indeed to help us get to where we need to be fully so that we can benefit as the scriptures describe in Malachi, we have to quit thinking of it as OUR MONEY over which we are entitled to control and rather consecrate it to God.   We have to recognize everything is HIS and we get to keep and used with appropriate care 90%, and eliminate any desire or intent to retain any control of it.   (Of course we also have to get to a place where we give everything away to HIM, fully trusting Him.    Nothing we have is OURS except that God allows us fully control of 90% of our increase.   We cannot be like Him until we quit hanging on to things of this world, and challenging Him. 

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

The scriptures don't really mention "trust" as the primary purpose of tithing.  They outline the specific purposes in the D&C, mentioned in the OP, it is to 1) administer to the poor and the needy, 2) for the financial maintenance, building, and general temporal financial support of the church in building up the church and kingdom.    Overall, the stated purpose of tithing is to administer to the poor/needy and to help the church grow.  I think this would improve both of those stated purposed. 

 

I was referring more to what it says about tithing in Malachi and how we can "prove" God by paying it.

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

Haven't read anything but OP.  

Tithing isn't about the money.  Indeed to help us get to where we need to be fully so that we can benefit as the scriptures describe in Malachi, we have to quit thinking of it as OUR MONEY over which we are entitled to control and rather consecrate it to God.   We have to recognize everything is HIS and we get to keep and used with appropriate care 90%, and eliminate any desire or intent to retain any control of it.   (Of course we also have to get to a place where we give everything away to HIM, fully trusting Him.    Nothing we have is OURS except that God allows us fully control of 90% of our increase.   We cannot be like Him until we quit hanging on to things of this world, and challenging Him. 

I don’t disagree, just wondering what it has to do with the OP.

"Hanging on to the things of this world and challenging Him"?  Is that what you are reading into the OP?  Not sure how you got there, honestly.  How is giving consecrated money to the poor and needy as directed by church leadership an example of entitled control of "hanging on" to "MY MONEY"?  

If the Lord directs the church to use the tithed and consecrated moneys (it clearly is not "OUR MONEY' at that point) for the purposes outlined in scripture ("administering to the poor and needy", and helping to build/grow the church), why could he not direct the membership to take a more direct role as the "Lord's storehouse" in administering it to the poor and needy?  You seem to be unnecessarily limiting God in your thinking.  God can use any tool he chooses to fulfill his purposes - let's not limit Him in our thinking in that way. 

It is not about "entitlement" or "control', honestly I have no idea why you are going there.  It is about submitting our will (if it was up to me, I'd use it to landscape my yard) to the Lords will by consecrating our time and money to fulfill the purposes outlined in the scriptures. 

Look how President Monson defined the "storehouse" in the OP:

Quote

“The Lord’s storehouse includes the time, talents, skills, compassion, consecrated material, and financial means of faithful Church members.” (“Guiding Principles of Personal and Family Welfare,” Ensign, Sept. 1986, 5).

We are the storehouse!  We administer through more ways then money.  He leaves it up to us how we administer our consecrated time, talents, skills and compassion, etc.  It is the storehouse who administers the tithe:

Quote

  The Lord’s storehouse “receives, holds in trust, and dispenses consecrated offerings of the Saints. The storehouse may be as simple or sophisticated as circumstances require. It may be a list of available services, money in an account, food in a pantry, or commodities in a building. A storehouse is established when faithful members consecrate to the bishop their time, talents, skills, compassion, materials, and financial means in caring for the poor and in building up the kingdom of God on the earth.

It "may be as simple or sophisticated as circumstances require".  In other words, it can be as simple as basic ol' church member administering to the poor and needy.  Why not?  

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by pogi

[Rain]

7 hours ago, Vanguard said:

My first thought about what to do with the modest amount of money each month was how much I could help those within my social circle (including my own family). I think there would be a lot of great good my wife and I could do. My immediate 2nd thought was that after a few months of this I would start rationalizing how the money might be better spent for my own material wealth (trust me, I can rationalize this!). Before I knew it, my tithe monies would be a checkerboard of well-intentioned donations and such, along with lots of new debt that I would incur from having used the money to 'upgrade' my car and purchase a new pop-up tent trailer... ; )

I started actually budgeting a few years ago. I was always pretty good with our money and I always wanted to budget, but finally I found a budgeting system that worked for me.  I have a tithing category and a giving category.  It's amazing to me how freeing/fun that giving category is.  No more worrying about having the money to give somewhere else - if the money is there then it is easy to give. 

If Pogi's idea went into place then you just put that same amount of money in the giving category.  Seeing it there would help you to still be wise with it. 

So I think it would go much better if you plan ahead on it.  If you have the plan to put it in "giving" like you do with tithing it wouldn't be near as easy to rationalize using what is in that category. And honestly, maybe it's bad of me, but I get a huge lift out of using that category that I don't have (and never have had) with tithing.  

[Teancum]

On 1/30/2023 at 3:12 PM, pogi said:

Crazy idea I had the other day that I want to throw out there into the ether.  

How would you feel if in the up-coming general conference President Nelson announced another huge change, this time in relation to tithing .  It would look like this -

Words of the prophet: 

"Through the use of wise financial practices and principles of self-reliance, the church has secured enough funds to support itself financially for the foreseeable future.  No, the law of tithing is not being abolished with this news, but will be refocused on principles outlined in scripture for the purposes of "administering to the poor and the needy (D&C 42:34).   In an effort to ignite a spirit of service and charity and recommit our members to the law of tithing in lifting our fellow men and helping to aid in the spirit of missionary work, from this time forward tithing funds donated to the bishop will be collected, recorded, consecrated and returned to the members with the direction to use it for the purposes of lifting those in need.   The church will provide a list of vetted charities and worthy organizations where your funds can be used for much good.  Or, if you wish, use these consecrated funds as directed by the spirit to serve those in need around you - to help family in a time of need, to donate to a charity close to your heart, to donate to medical science or to improve stewardship over the earth by donating to environmental causes which affect us all.  By so doing, we hope that our members will become an unprecedented force for good in the world that will draw people unto us and draw attention to our cause in new and magnified ways, and instill a greater sense of purpose and meaning through direct experience with the utilization of your tithing to bless and minister to others in unprecedented ways.  Allowing our members to serve in ways which may not have been financially possible before. 

While it is not required, where possible, we encourage members to not simply give money, but to donate time and talents which can be supported by your tithing.  This can help finance your own service, humanitarian, or medical missions locally and abroad.   If there comes a time (unlikely) where the church needs additional funds to support its efforts, it may ask for a percentage of your tithing be paid directly to the church.  Until then, we expect you to go out and serve and do much good."

I think this would be a game changer for the church in terms of missionary efforts and igniting a spirit in its membership in really profound ways and in making a greater impact for good on the world.     

It seems to fall in line with the principles outlined in this article about the purposes of the storehouse:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/lords-storehouse-a-divine-principle-of-meeting-needs?lang=eng

What is the Lord's storehouse?  Could such a change in the law of tithing be supported by how "storehouse" is defined?  Lets see:

We are the Lords storehouse.  According to Thomas S. Monson.

Does anyone know the direct email of President Nelson to put this bug in his ear like Emma Smith did with Joseph in relation to the Wow? 

What think ye?  Could this work in the church?  Does it meet the doctrinal principles of tithing?

 

I think this is a lovey idea.  Whatever happened to President Monson's fourth mission of the church of caring for the poor?

[Teancum]

On 1/30/2023 at 5:05 PM, OGHoosier said:

I'm gonna be honest with you, I doubt it would. 

Not really. An investment portfolio consists of circulating capital, which is an essential underpinning of our current economy. The money isn't sitting in a Scrooge McDuck vault, it's circulating. 

Capital does not circulate when you buy a stock and hold it.  It does if you are selling and buying.  The cash reserves would be circulating.

[Teancum]

On 1/30/2023 at 5:51 PM, OGHoosier said:

I'll be real with you, @pogi, I think the church's capital assets are going to be important, I think they are needed, and I think idealistic proposals to do away with them are short-sighted. And that's exactly how I see this.  

So the church needs a $100 billion of stocks and other investments for what important purpose?  And I do not think he is proposing to do away with them in total.

[Teancum]

On 1/30/2023 at 6:01 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

The response in my stake would be: 'Who the hell has time and energy to figure out what to do with their own tithing. That's the Brethren's job!'

Really?  Good people with resources that are charitably inclined figure out who to support.  Are you really uncapable of finding worthy organizations for your funds?  I do that all the time.

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Really?  Good people with resources that are charitably inclined figure out who to support.  Are you really uncapable of finding worthy organizations for your funds?  I do that all the time.

Not to mention the church would list a bunch of vetted charities they could donate to.  It would be as easy as giving their money to the church, only it would be to the charitable organization of their own choosing.  They could make it really easy and stick with one organization to donate to each month.  It could be as simple as it is to donate to the church, or as involved and hands-on as one wishes.  

[Teancum]

On 1/31/2023 at 9:54 AM, ksfisher said:

Sounds like it comes down yo trust then.  Do you trust those whom the Lord has called or not. 

More blind obedience?

[MustardSeed]

I like to tithe and get the concrete write off  

I’m with the camp that says letting go of control is a spiritual exercise. 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

Not to mention the church would list a bunch of vetted charities they could donate to.  It would be as easy as giving their money to the church, only it would be to the charitable organization of their own choosing.  They could make it really easy and stick with one organization to donate to each month.  It could be as simple as it is to donate to the church, or as involved and hands-on as one wishes.  

Under this idea, how would tithing be different from humanitarian aide?

[Teancum]

On 1/31/2023 at 12:01 PM, bluebell said:

How is it the Lord's money if we keep it and then also decide what to do with it.

How is it the Lord's Money now?  Men manage it. If they are not infallible they can get it wrong.

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, rpn said:

Haven't read anything but OP.  

Tithing isn't about the money.  Indeed to help us get to where we need to be fully so that we can benefit as the scriptures describe in Malachi, we have to quit thinking of it as OUR MONEY over which we are entitled to control and rather consecrate it to God.   We have to recognize everything is HIS and we get to keep and used with appropriate care 90%, and eliminate any desire or intent to retain any control of it.   (Of course we also have to get to a place where we give everything away to HIM, fully trusting Him.    Nothing we have is OURS except that God allows us fully control of 90% of our increase.   We cannot be like Him until we quit hanging on to things of this world, and challenging Him. 

Yea tithing is really about money.

[Teancum]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Under this idea, how would tithing be different from humanitarian aide?

Why does it matter?

[pogi]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Under this idea, how would tithing be different from humanitarian aide?

According to the D&C, that is a major purpose of tithing.  It seems the church has enough to keep the other purpose of tithing (building/expanding the temporal needs of the church) going uninterrupted for some time from their investments.   That means, any new tithes could theoretically (again, excluding the possibility of some other huge investment or disaster that has been revealed for the church to save for) be used to support the other stated purpose of tithing - humanitarian aide.

The church uses tithing for humanitarian aide all the time.  I guess the only difference is that it has been consecrated by the Lord for that specific purpose.  This would be no different, except that we would be blessed with the opportunity to take a more active role in that aide. 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

How is it the Lord's Money now?  Men manage it. If they are not infallible they can get it wrong.

Yep, but that’s not really what I asked.

I am not concerned about tithing being administered perfectly.  What I was wondering is how, under pogi’s idea, tithing would be any different than humanitarian aid.

Because in the church right now tithing and humanitarian aid are not the same. 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Why does it matter?

Because right now tithing and humanitarian aid are seen as two separate things.  But under Pogi’s plan, it sounds like they would be the same thing.