Church Promoted a False "Great Apostasy" Narrative according to Maxwell Institute

[Tacenda]

I don't know that I've ever really truly thought about this, was viewing reddit and this was one of the questions. Any help on answering this on here? Hopefully okay that I piggyback on this topic Craig. 

C/P'd below:

Joseph Smith translated scriptures and received revelations for himself and others before he had the priesthood. If Joseph was able to perform all of these important tasks without the priesthood, how does the LDS Church justify the need for keys and authority today?

History

Some timeline Highlights: 

September 1827 - Receives Gold Plates. 

December 1827 - Moves to Harmony, begins translation of Gold Plates using rock in the hat.

April - June 1828 - Martin Harris helps as scribe. 

June 1828 - 116 pages are lost. 

July 1828 - Receives D&C Revelation section 3.  Section 3

(Receives at least 15 revelation before receiving Melchizedek Priesthood).  D&C Chronology

September 1828 - Starts to translate again. 

April 5, 1829 - Oliver Cowdery arrived to help translate.  

May 15, 1829 - Aaronic Priesthood given by John the Baptist. 

Note:  by May 15th Smith and Cowdery had translated Mosiah, Alma, Helaman and most of 3rd Nephi.  Interestingly it was during this time that Smith translated the portion of the Book of Mormon where Alma is filled with the spirit and starts baptizing, without ever having the laying on of hands. Alma 18

June 1829 -  Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James and John

Summary: In a church that is so very strict about having the authority and keys to perform duties, it is clear that Joseph didn't believe that at the time.

How does the church explain how Joseph Smith was able to receive multiple revelations and translate the majority of the Book of Mormon before receiving the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthoods in May / June of 1829? 

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't know that I've ever really truly thought about this, was viewing reddit and this was one of the questions. Any help on answering this on here? Hopefully okay that I piggyback on this topic Craig. 

C/P'd below:

Joseph Smith translated scriptures and received revelations for himself and others before he had the priesthood. If Joseph was able to perform all of these important tasks without the priesthood, how does the LDS Church justify the need for keys and authority today?

History

Some timeline Highlights: 

September 1827 - Receives Gold Plates. 

December 1827 - Moves to Harmony, begins translation of Gold Plates using rock in the hat.

April - June 1828 - Martin Harris helps as scribe. 

June 1828 - 116 pages are lost. 

July 1828 - Receives D&C Revelation section 3.  Section 3

(Receives at least 15 revelation before receiving Melchizedek Priesthood).  D&C Chronology

September 1828 - Starts to translate again. 

April 5, 1829 - Oliver Cowdery arrived to help translate.  

May 15, 1829 - Aaronic Priesthood given by John the Baptist. 

Note:  by May 15th Smith and Cowdery had translated Mosiah, Alma, Helaman and most of 3rd Nephi.  Interestingly it was during this time that Smith translated the portion of the Book of Mormon where Alma is filled with the spirit and starts baptizing, without ever having the laying on of hands. Alma 18

June 1829 -  Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James and John

Summary: In a church that is so very strict about having the authority and keys to perform duties, it is clear that Joseph didn't believe that at the time.

How does the church explain how Joseph Smith was able to receive multiple revelations and translate the majority of the Book of Mormon before receiving the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthoods in May / June of 1829? 

Receiving revelation etc. are not ordinances that require keys.  Anyone can receive revelation or be gifted with other spiritual gifts without the priesthood.   We later learned about the proper order/structure of revelation.

Edited June 4, 2023 by pogi

[Navidad]

20 hours ago, pogi said:

Receiving revelation etc. are not ordinances that require keys.  Anyone can receive revelation or be gifted with other spiritual gifts without the priesthood.   We later learned about the proper order/structure of revelation.

According to the LDS church, was the Holy Spirit involved in the translation of the Book of Mormon and is the Holy Spirit involved in receiving revelation? For that matter, was the Holy Spirit involved in the creation of the original plates?

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't know that I've ever really truly thought about this, was viewing reddit and this was one of the questions. Any help on answering this on here? Hopefully okay that I piggyback on this topic Craig. 

C/P'd below:

Joseph Smith translated scriptures and received revelations for himself and others before he had the priesthood. If Joseph was able to perform all of these important tasks without the priesthood, how does the LDS Church justify the need for keys and authority today?

History

Some timeline Highlights: 

September 1827 - Receives Gold Plates. 

December 1827 - Moves to Harmony, begins translation of Gold Plates using rock in the hat.

April - June 1828 - Martin Harris helps as scribe. 

June 1828 - 116 pages are lost. 

July 1828 - Receives D&C Revelation section 3.  Section 3

(Receives at least 15 revelation before receiving Melchizedek Priesthood).  D&C Chronology

September 1828 - Starts to translate again. 

April 5, 1829 - Oliver Cowdery arrived to help translate.  

May 15, 1829 - Aaronic Priesthood given by John the Baptist. 

Note:  by May 15th Smith and Cowdery had translated Mosiah, Alma, Helaman and most of 3rd Nephi.  Interestingly it was during this time that Smith translated the portion of the Book of Mormon where Alma is filled with the spirit and starts baptizing, without ever having the laying on of hands. Alma 18

June 1829 -  Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James and John

Summary: In a church that is so very strict about having the authority and keys to perform duties, it is clear that Joseph didn't believe that at the time.

How does the church explain how Joseph Smith was able to receive multiple revelations and translate the majority of the Book of Mormon before receiving the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthoods in May / June of 1829? 

Think about how he read James 1:5, then went out and followed it.

He needed wisdom.  He believed in the bible, and it says right there that God will give it to you!

No priesthood necessary- revelation is not an ordinance, of course!

Priesthood is largely also an administrative/leadership thing, but at that point, there was nothing to administer yet!  There is no problem or conflicts here at all.

It's similar to an "investigator" having his testimony per Moroni 10:4-5 before he is baptized.

Reddit is.....🧐😡...🤐..., uh, often innacurate, and clearly "anti".

[mfbukowski]

58 minutes ago, Navidad said:

According to the LDS church, was the Holy Spirit involved in the translation of the Book of Mormon and is the Holy Spirit involved in receiving revelation? For that matter, was the Holy Spirit involved in the creation of the original plates?

Of course.  

I guess you are answering Tacenda as we might?  Or asking on your own behalf?

It's just like virtually ALL biblical revelation perhaps, though we do believe that Moses received the M. Priesthood from Jethro.

[Navidad]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Of course.  

I guess you are answering Tacenda as we might?  Or asking on your own behalf?

It's just like virtually ALL biblical revelation perhaps, though we do believe that Moses received the M. Priesthood from Jethro.

I am not answering anyone. The conversation just led me to ask that because I don't hear much about the role of the Holy Spirit in the early LDS church, except perhaps in the dedication of the Kirtland temple. I don't believe I have ever read anything about the involvement of the Holy Spirit in the creation of the original plates, the compilation of the Book of Mormon, its safekeeping, transmission, or translation. So, I guess I am asking on my own behalf. Is there a book out there specifically about the role of the Holy Spirit in all things Book of Mormon? If so, I would like to read it.

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I am not answering anyone. The conversation just led me to ask that because I don't hear much about the role of the Holy Spirit in the early LDS church, except perhaps in the dedication of the Kirtland temple. I don't believe I have ever read anything about the involvement of the Holy Spirit in the creation of the original plates, the compilation of the Book of Mormon, its safekeeping, transmission, or translation. So, I guess I am asking on my own behalf. Is there a book out there specifically about the role of the Holy Spirit in all things Book of Mormon? If so, I would like to read it.

Our belief is that the BOM was written by prophets, who of course were inspired by the Holy Ghost, just as the Bible was.

Where is the question there, seriously?  How would you answer your own question about the Old Testament or New Testament?

I really wish I could understand you better.

Do you doubt that the Bible was revealed by God through the Holy Spirit?

I am really trying to figure out where you are coming from.

Also, the Book of Mormon is NOT the LDS CHURCH.

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

11 minutes ago, Navidad said:

The conversation just led me to ask that because I don't hear much about the role of the Holy Spirit in the early LDS church, except perhaps in the dedication of the Kirtland temple.

So is this about the CHURCH or the BOM?  Very confusing!

[teddyaware]

21 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't know that I've ever really truly thought about this, was viewing reddit and this was one of the questions. Any help on answering this on here? Hopefully okay that I piggyback on this topic Craig. 

C/P'd below:

Joseph Smith translated scriptures and received revelations for himself and others before he had the priesthood. If Joseph was able to perform all of these important tasks without the priesthood, how does the LDS Church justify the need for keys and authority today?

History

Some timeline Highlights: 

September 1827 - Receives Gold Plates. 

December 1827 - Moves to Harmony, begins translation of Gold Plates using rock in the hat.

April - June 1828 - Martin Harris helps as scribe. 

June 1828 - 116 pages are lost. 

July 1828 - Receives D&C Revelation section 3.  Section 3

(Receives at least 15 revelation before receiving Melchizedek Priesthood).  D&C Chronology

September 1828 - Starts to translate again. 

April 5, 1829 - Oliver Cowdery arrived to help translate.  

May 15, 1829 - Aaronic Priesthood given by John the Baptist. 

Note:  by May 15th Smith and Cowdery had translated Mosiah, Alma, Helaman and most of 3rd Nephi.  Interestingly it was during this time that Smith translated the portion of the Book of Mormon where Alma is filled with the spirit and starts baptizing, without ever having the laying on of hands. Alma 18

June 1829 -  Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James and John

Summary: In a church that is so very strict about having the authority and keys to perform duties, it is clear that Joseph didn't believe that at the time.

How does the church explain how Joseph Smith was able to receive multiple revelations and translate the majority of the Book of Mormon before receiving the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthoods in May / June of 1829? 

You’re apparently failing to recognize that holders of the Melchizedek priesthood were fully engaged in every aspect of the events on your list. God the Father, Jesus Christ and angelic ministrants, all of whom are holders of the priesthood, were able to exercise their priesthood authority and power to make sure that the work of the restoration of the gospel unfolded according to God’s design and timetable, assuring that the work continued move forward under proper priesthood authority until the time was right to confer the priesthood on Joseph and Oliver.

The scriptures are full of examples of people having powerful Melchizedek priesthood type spiritual experiences (think King Lamoni and Cornelius) prior to holding the priesthood, and all of it was made possible by holy beings who held and exercised priesthood authority and power. Every item on your list happened under the auspices, authority and power of the priesthood; none of it happened apart from the priesthood. It’s also important to understand that Joseph Smith was ordained to the priesthood in the pre-earth life, therefore it’s incorrect to conclude that he was totally devoid of priesthood virtue and power before his earthly ordinations.

[Navidad]

21 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So is this about the CHURCH or the BOM?  Very confusing!

I am so sorry I confuse you. That is never (at least rarely 😃) my intent. My question was about both. There are quite a few different models about the Holy Spirit and the Bible (its writing, compilation, transmission, content, and preservation). I have always found that an interesting discussion within my world. I realized this morning that I don't know as much as I would like about the same issues with the Book of Mormon, and in actuality with the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants, or for that matter how the Holy Spirit works in the LDS concept of revelation in general in the LDS church. I will have to go look, but I am not sure I have a book that is specifically about the mission and ministry of the Holy Spirit in the LDS Pneumatology. The mission and ministry of the Holy Spirit is different in the Pentecostal community than in my community. I am sure there are differences of perspective on the part of those on this forum about the role of the Holy Spirit in the writing, compilation, and continuity of the Bible. I am nothing more than curious. When I am curious I ask questions. I mean no harm in any of that. Just think of me as a curious friend in the gospel, and perhaps I won't confuse you so much.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Navidad

[Navidad]

10 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Every item on your list happened under the auspices, authority and power of the priesthood; none of it happened apart from the priesthood.

Would you say the same about the Bible? Not a challenge - just a question.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

It’s also important to understand that Joseph Smith was ordained to the priesthood in the pre-earth life, therefore it’s incorrect to conclude that he was totally devoid of priesthood virtue and power before his earthly ordinations.

Though I implied earlier that this was not the case, I have no problem with this view.

I'm just a newbie of 44 years but was unaware that this is a teaching.

Where can I find more to read on that, please? 

This seems to imply that the Priesthood was received in earth life:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-testimony-of-the-prophet-joseph-smith/the-priesthood-restored?lang=eng

Edited June 5, 2023 by mfbukowski

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Though I implied earlier that this was not the case, I have no problem with this view.

I'm just a newbie of 44 years but was unaware that this is a teaching.

Where can I find more to read on that, please? 

This seems to imply that the Priesthood was received in earth life:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-testimony-of-the-prophet-joseph-smith/the-priesthood-restored?lang=eng

The opening portion of the following BYU studies presentation addresses the issue: https://rsc.byu.edu/book-mormon-message-four-gospels/priesthood#:~:text=The Prophet Joseph Smith taught a similar truth,to this very office in that Grand Council.”

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

According to the LDS church, was the Holy Spirit involved in the translation of the Book of Mormon and is the Holy Spirit involved in receiving revelation? For that matter, was the Holy Spirit involved in the creation of the original plates?

Most definitely as mfb has said. Nephi talks about  receiving revelation to produce the plates and also the workings of the spirit on him in his teaching of the word of God in 1 Ne 19.

Quote

And it came to pass that the Lord commanded me, wherefore I did make plates of ore that I might engraven upon them the record of my people. And upon the plates which I made I did engraven the record of my father, and also our journeyings in the wilderness, and the prophecies of my father; and also many of mine own prophecies have I engraven upon them.

2 And I knew not at the time when I made them that I should be commanded of the Lord to make these plates; wherefore, the record of my father, and the genealogy of his fathers, and the more part of all our proceedings in the wilderness are engraven upon those first plates of which I have spoken; wherefore, the things which transpired before I made these plates are, of a truth, more particularly made mention upon the first plates.

3 And after I had made these plates by way of commandment, I, Nephi, received a commandment that the ministry and the prophecies, the more plain and precious parts of them, should be written upon these plates; and that the things which were written should be kept for the instruction of my people, who should possess the land, and also for other wise purposes, which purposes are known unto the Lord.

4 Wherefore, I, Nephi, did make a record upon the other plates, which gives an account, or which gives a greater account of the wars and contentions and destructions of my people. And this have I done, and commanded my people what they should do after I was gone; and that these plates should be handed down from one generation to another, or from one prophet to another, until further commandments of the Lord.

5 And an account of my makingthese plates shall be given hereafter; and then, behold, I proceed according to that which I have spoken; and this I do that the more sacred things may be kept for the knowledge of my people.

6 Nevertheless, I do not writeanything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old; not that I would excuse myself because of other men, but because of the weakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself.

7 For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at naught and trample under their feet. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words—they set him at naught, and hearken notto the voice of his counsels.

8 And behold he cometh, according to the words of the angel, in six hundred years from the time my father left Jerusalem.

9 And the world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-sufferingtowards the children of men.

10 And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the Godof Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wickedmen, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.

11 For thus spake the prophet: The Lord God surely shall visit all the house of Israel at that day, some with his voice, because of their righteousness, unto their great joy and salvation, and others with the thunderings and the lightnings of his power, by tempest, by fire, and by smoke, and vapor of darkness, and by the opening of the earth, and by mountains which shall be carried up.

12 And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers.

13 And as for those who are at Jerusalem, saith the prophet, they shall be scourged by all people, because they crucify the God of Israel, and turn their hearts aside, rejecting signs and wonders, and the power and glory of the God of Israel.

14 And because they turn their hearts aside, saith the prophet, and have despised the Holy One of Israel, they shall wander in the flesh, and perish, and become a hissand a byword, and be hated among all nations.

15 Nevertheless, when that day cometh, saith the prophet, that they no more turn aside their hearts against the Holy One of Israel, then will he remember the covenantswhich he made to their fathers.

16 Yea, then will he remember the isles of the sea; yea, and all the people who are of the house of Israel, will I gather in, saith the Lord, according to the words of the prophet Zenos, from the four quarters of the earth.

17 Yea, and all the earth shall see the salvation of the Lord, saith the prophet; every nation, kindred, tongue and people shall be blessed.

18 And I, Nephi, have written these things unto my people, that perhaps I might persuade them that they would remember the Lord their Redeemer.

19 Wherefore, I speak unto all the house of Israel, if it so be that they should obtain these things.

20 For behold, I have workings in the spirit, which doth weary me even that all my joints are weak, for those who are at Jerusalem; for had not the Lord been merciful, to show unto me concerning them, even as he had prophets of old, I should have perished also.

21 And he surely did show unto the prophets of old all things concerning them; and also he did show unto many concerning us; wherefore, it must needs be that we know concerning them for they are written upon the plates of brass.

22 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, did teach my brethren these things; and it came to pass that I did read many things to them, which were engraven upon the plates of brass, that they might know concerning the doings of the Lord in other lands, among people of old.

23 And I did read many things unto them which were written in the books of Moses; but that I might more fully persuade them to believe in the Lord their Redeemer I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet Isaiah; for I did liken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning.

24 Wherefore I spake unto them, saying: Hear ye the words of the prophet, ye who are a remnant of the house of Israel, a branch who have been broken off; hear ye the words of the prophet, which were written unto all the house of Israel, and liken them unto yourselves, that ye may have hope as well as your brethren from whom ye have been broken off; for after this manner has the prophet written.

I bolded specific references to revelation, which always involves the Holy Spirit as well as the “workings of the spirit” reference.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/19?lang=eng

Nephi is commanded to make the plates:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/9?lang=eng
 

Joseph Smith states the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, which in our doctrine means through the Spirit. 

Our doctrine is the Spirit is present for any vision, visitation, or revelation by angels or God, so when Moroni visited Joseph and showed him where to find the plates as well as taught him about them and other things, this would have been through the Spirit. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

Mormon also describes his efforts as being directed by the Spirit:

Quote

1 And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni, behold I have witnessed almost all the destruction of my people, the Nephites.

2 And it is many hundred years after the coming of Christ that I deliver these records into the hands of my son; and it supposeth me that he will witness the entire destruction of my people. But may God grant that he may survive them, that he may write somewhat concerning them, and somewhat concerning Christ, that perhaps some day it may profitthem.

3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

4 And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesiedconcerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass—

5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.

6 But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren.

7 And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will.

8 And my prayer to God is concerning my brethren, that they may once again come to the knowledge of God, yea, the redemption of Christ; that they may once again be a delightsome people.

9 And now I, Mormon, proceed to finish out my record, which I take from the plates of Nephi; and I make it according to the knowledge and the understanding which God has given me.

From the Words of Mormon

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/w-of-m/1?lang=eng

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The opening portion of the following BYU studies presentation addresses the issue: https://rsc.byu.edu/book-mormon-message-four-gospels/priesthood#:~:text=The Prophet Joseph Smith taught a similar truth,to this very office in that Grand Council.”

Ah, ok, I get it now! 

Again as usual, "forordained" to me is not the same as "ordained"- we know that forordination is not the same as ordination because we constantly preach against us be "Predetermined" to anything since that implies lack of agency and predestination.

I see it more like Patriarchal blessings, where we are shown our personal potential to help us live up to it.  It is more like "blessed to do x assuming that you are worthy and live righteously.

From that quote you and I and all other priesthood holders were "foreordained" to receive the priesthood, but obviously we had to wait until we were actually of age, interviewed etc to be "Ordained" actually allowing us to exercise that which we had already been promised to be able to do if we lived righteously.

Just an ambiguous word-with ambiguous possible interpretations-  no biggy, you can take it either way as far as I am concerned. 

 

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Navidad said:

Would you say the same about the Bible? Not a challenge - just a question.

Yes and no. The Bible is published under all sorts of auspices. The origins of the sources used to compile it iare mixed. I consider it a miracle that it preserved a sufficient portion of the old and new testaments of God to prepare the way for the Restoration of the fulness of the gospel covenants.

 

Regarding the holy writ that once contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, yes, I would say these were originally prepared "under the auspices, authority and power of the priesthood; none of it apart from the priesthood." 1 Nephi 13, verses 20 onward, describe this in great detail. I would go so far as to suggest that Jesus Himself might have recorded some of His teachings which were eventually used as reference material for the four gospels.

[David Waltz]

I noticed this thread on 06-05-23 during some internet browsing whilst watching the French Open. The next day, I ordered Ancient Christians, and received the book Friday evening. Sunday afternoon, I finished reading the tome, and began reflecting on whether or not I should commit some of my time to share a few thoughts on it. I was leaning towards not doing so, but a subsequent meeting with two LDS missionaries new to my area has prompted me to take up my ‘pen’, and this primarily due to one of the topics they brought up—the “Great Apostasy”.

The missionaries were quite passionate in their summary for the need for a Restoration due to the infiltration of false teachings, the changing of divinely appointed ordinances, the loss of 'plain and precious truths', and most importantly, the loss of the Priesthood. With many of the assessments presented in Ancient Christians fresh on my mind during our discussion, I could not help but think that their message would have been significantly altered if they had embraced those assessments.

I suspect if the contributors of Ancient Christians were present during our meeting, they would have steered the discussion towards the need to: "meet, empathize with, and understand better our ancient Christian sisters and brothers, to feel their love for one another and for Jesus Christ" (p. VIII); and that those same, "ancient Christians have expansive , even redemptive, vantage points to offer us" (ibid. - bold emphasis mine).

More later, the Lord willing...

Grace and peace,

David

Edited June 17, 2023 by David Waltz
To add italics

[CV75]

3 hours ago, David Waltz said:

I noticed this thread on 06-05-23 during some internet browsing whilst watching the French Open. The next day, I ordered Ancient Christians, and received the book Friday evening. Sunday afternoon, I finished reading the tome, and began reflecting on whether or not I should commit some of my time to share a few thoughts on it. I was leaning towards not doing so, but a subsequent meeting with two LDS missionaries new to my area has prompted me to take up my ‘pen’, and this primarily due to one of the topics they brought up—the “Great Apostasy”.

The missionaries were quite passionate in their summary for the need for a Restoration due to the infiltration of false teachings, the changing of divinely appointed ordinances, the loss of 'plain and precious truths', and most importantly, the loss of the Priesthood. With many of the assessments presented in Ancient Christians fresh on my mind during our discussion, I could not help but think that their message would have been significantly altered if they had embraced those assessments.

I suspect if the contributors of Ancient Christians were present during our meeting, they would have steered the discussion towards the need to: "meet, empathize with, and understand better our ancient Christian sisters and brothers, to feel their love for one another and for Jesus Christ" (p. VIII); and that those same, "ancient Christians have expansive , even redemptive, vantage points to offer us" (ibid. - bold emphasis mine).

More later, the Lord willing...

Grace and peace,

David

I think in this regard, the ancients are the same as any today who possess a spirit of charity. There is much to learn and emulate from them, no matter their faith traditions. This takes nothing away from the need for a Restoration or the reasons for the need.

[Kenngo1969]

Foreordination is not the same thing as ordination.

Just sayin'!

[UncleanDeacon]

What about Mormonism has held up? about every single belief from the past has been abandoned or changed... look at "free agency"  Once a pillar of Mormon theology and it has changed to Moral Agency and is defined differently.

[InCognitus]

24 minutes ago, UncleanDeacon said:

What about Mormonism has held up? about every single belief from the past has been abandoned or changed... look at "free agency"  Once a pillar of Mormon theology and it has changed to Moral Agency and is defined differently.

You only named one belief from the past that you see has been "abandoned or changed".  What are the beliefs do you have in mind?

As for "free agency" to "moral agency", I think that's just a refinement of our language and what is found in scripture, and not the concept.   See the October 2014 New Era article:  Free Agency or Moral Agency?

Quote

Agents unto Ourselves
Because the scriptures teach that we are “free to choose,” “free to act,” and free to do things “of [our] own free will” (2 Nephi 2:27; 10:23; D&C 58:27; see also Helaman 14:30), we often use the term “free agency.”

But did you know that the phrase “free agency” does not appear in the scriptures? Instead, the scriptures teach “that every man may act in doctrine and principle … according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins” (D&C 101:78; emphasis added).

"Moral agency" is the correct usage, because that's what the scriptures have said.

[mfbukowski]

53 minutes ago, UncleanDeacon said:

What about Mormonism has held up? about every single belief from the past has been abandoned or changed... look at "free agency"  Once a pillar of Mormon theology and it has changed to Moral Agency and is defined differently.

This is why we have an open canon.

The philosophical distinction in Joseph's time was not well known.

The meaning of the term was clarified to present the concept better.

Thank God for an open canon.

We no longer speak King James English, and changes are needed