Church Promoted a False "Great Apostasy" Narrative according to Maxwell Institute

[Craig Speechly]

The Maxwell Institute has published a new book that some may find of interest.  I have not read the book so am only restating what the linked article  articulates, namely that the church has promoted an overly simplistic, if not completely false, narrative, about early Christians, according to a new book of essays, “Ancient Christians: An Introduction for Latter-day Saints,”

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/01/23/what-latter-day-saints-get-wrong/

Edited January 24 by Craig Speechly

[Eschaton]

Quote

Latter-day Saints generally believe that Jesus established a church during his ministry, but after the death of his apostles, that body fell away from its gospel foundation due to what is called “the Great Apostasy.”

Many have come to think that God withdrew from the world at that time and remained distant through the Dark Ages until 1830, when Christ’s church was “restored” to its original form in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

That is an overly simplistic, if not completely false, narrative, about early Christians, according to a new book of essays, “Ancient Christians: An Introduction for Latter-day Saints,” from the Maxwell Institute at church-owned Brigham Young University.

I would agree this is kind of a fairy tale idea of first century Christianity. Jesus didn't start a church, his movement was similar to John's - a Jewish eschatological movement, not a new religion. 

The start of a new "church" happened a few generations later. And contrary to what we learned in the MTC, there was no original unified Christian church in the first century - it was highly diverse and segmented into different communities that believed different things, from the beginning. It only became one unified church centuries later, with the advent of established orthodoxy and Catholicism. But that unified church didn't much resemble Jesus' original movement at all. But neither is the LDS church similar to any first century Christian organization - nor is any other existing church. 

Nor should we expect them to be - religion is constantly evolving - all religions evolve or die out. 

 

Edited January 23 by Eschaton

[Damien the Leper]

Sounds like a good book for every LDS home.

[Buckeye]

2 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

The Maxwell Institute has published a new book that some may find of interest.  I have not read the book so am only restating what the linked article  articulates, namely that the church has promoted an overly simplistic, if not completely false, narrative, about early Christians, according to a new book of essays, “Ancient Christians: An Introduction for Latter-day Saints,”

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/01/23/what-latter-day-saints-get-wrong/

It’s a great book. I use it in personal, family, and Sunday school study during this NT study year. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Apostasy

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Apostasy

Now or back then?

[blackstrap]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Apostasy

Then we get prophecy. If only English spelling was consistent .

[Scott Lloyd]

42 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Then we get prophecy. If only English spelling was consistent .

If it’s spelled “prophesy,” it’s a verb, not a noun. And the pronunciation is different. 
 

Apostasy is derived from the Greek apostasis and the Latin apostasia. All three are spelled with s — scarcely inconsistent. 
 

Prophecy comes from the Old French proficie, both spelled with c. Again, not inconsistent. 

Edited January 23 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Now or back then?

Back when?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Buckeye said:

It’s a great book. I use it in personal, family, and Sunday school study during this NT study year. 

Do you agree with the summary of the OP?

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Back when?

Before the whatchamacallit but after the whatchamawhosit.

Edited January 23 by The Nehor

[pogi]

Quote

As to the modern church, the researcher urges the faith’s leaders “to pray for additional prophetic revelation,” Laughton writes in her essay’s conclusion, “to validate and increase women’s leadership and participation.”

The ancient church, she says, could provide a compass.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/01/23/what-latter-day-saints-get-wrong/

Sounds like there are undertones of ordain-women coming out of the Maxwell Institute.  Interesting! 
 

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

The Maxwell Institute has published a new book that some may find of interest.  I have not read the book so am only restating what the linked article  articulates, namely that the church has promoted an overly simplistic, if not completely false, narrative, about early Christians, according to a new book of essays, “Ancient Christians: An Introduction for Latter-day Saints,”

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/01/23/what-latter-day-saints-get-wrong/

I am grateful we adhere to D&C 1:24-28 some 190+ years on!

It does seem the "completely false" charge is as over the top as the idea that "God withdrew from the world." 

As to Jospeh Smith not using the term, at least he transmitted part of in D&C 86, where the revelation introduces the concept of an "apostate" sowing mischief anciently and broadly, requiring divine intervention via priesthood revelation and restoration (the last time being in Christ's day) in the last days. Since the term is provided in a parabolic context, it can rightly be put to good semantic use. 

Maybe the authors can address this in their next edition per D&C 1:24-28  .

 

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Sounds like there are undertones of ordain-women coming out of the Maxwell Institute.  Interesting! 
 

[OGHoosier]

Chad Nielsen at Times and Seasons does not seem to share Peggy Fletcher Stack's assessment of this most recent Maxwell Institute offering.

https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2022/11/ancient-christians-an-introduction-for-latter-day-saints/

My regard for Peggy Fletcher Stack's opinion is...ebbing at best. I would likewise encourage @Craig Speechly to clarify the title of this topic. It should read "'Church Promoted a False 'Great Apostacy' Narrative According to the Maxwell Institute' According to the Salt Lake Tribune."

Edited January 23 by OGHoosier

[Buckeye]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Do you agree with the summary of the OP?

No. There’s never an explicit labeling of the traditional narrative as “false” but rather a respectful resetting of the narrative to include modern scholarship unavailable to LDS in the early 1800s. 
 

The book has 14 chapters. The first is an introductory overview that resets the traditional apostasy narrative. The next 12 deal with specific issues - atonement, creation and fall, women’s roles, etc. - to explain how early saints approached and evolved on those topics. The final chapter deals with medieval saints instead of the early ones.
 

Only the first and last chapters discuss the traditional LDS apostasy narrative (mainly the first), and the authors do so by positioning LDS believes within the prevailing attitudes of the time - similar in my view to how the church essay on race and priesthood situates racist teachings in our history to contemporary attitudes. Just as Brigham inherited the curse of Cain idea, early LDS leaders inherited the notion of a complete falling away. The authors don’t chastise and beat up that narrative. They simply explain there is a better and more accurate view - a “new Latter Day Saints approach to ancient Christian” - and then invite us to turn our hearts to those good ancestors by studying their immense faith. 

[Buckeye]

47 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Chad Nielsen at Times and Seasons does not seem to share Peggy Fletcher Stack's assessment of this most recent Maxwell Institute offering.

https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2022/11/ancient-christians-an-introduction-for-latter-day-saints/

My regard for Peggy Fletcher Stack's opinion is...ebbing at best. I would likewise encourage @Craig Speechly to clarify the title of this topic. It should read "'Church Promoted a False 'Great Apostacy' Narrative According to the Maxwell Institute' According to the Salt Lake Tribune."

I disagree. Peggy’s article is actually very fair and extensively quotes the books authors. The articles’s headline is a bit inflammatory, but headlines usually come from the editor, not the journalist. 

[Buckeye]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Sounds like there are undertones of ordain-women coming out of the Maxwell Institute.  Interesting! 
 

That’s a bit of a misquote. The conclusion of Laughton’s essay - which is excellent by the way - does not counsel directly to church leaders but invites us all in the abstract. The full quote reads “While we continue to pray for additional prophetic revelation to validate and increase women’s leadership and participation in [the church] we can rejoice today that God has restored these ancient models of women’s leadership and authority once again.”  
 

The essence of that essay is that women in the early church played significant administrative roles and performed ordinances while the church was organized largely in people’s homes, but those roles were removed as the church grew into an institution in the Greek and Roman world since those worlds confined women’s roles to domestic spheres. 

[Pyreaux]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Before the whatchamacallit but after the whatchamawhosit.

Impossible the.whatchamacallit was before the Whozeewhatzit

[Saint Bonaventure]

After reading the article, I went ahead and purchased the Kindle version of this book.

Having only read the introduction, I'm encouraging the Latter-day Saints in my extended family to purchase it as well.

These academics at BYU want to "draw the apostasy line" exactly where I think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints eventually will draw it--at authority. And they want to draw it as kindly and gently as possible, which I appreciate in a very personal way. 

Just from the introduction, Dr. Combs is throwing overboard a ton of anti-Catholic (and anti-Orthodox) rhetoric. He's trying to free Latter-day Saints from dead-end arguments that, if continued, will set you all on a course that is much too close to the Jehovah's Witnesses for your liking. That's not who you are, and that's not who these authors want you to be.

Sometimes courage is required, and even with those who we believe are on the wrong side of important theological lines. I think Dr. Combs and the other authors are showing some courage. For those of you who do study the Patristics, as this book encourages, you have so much beauty, truth, and goodness awaiting you. I think there is so much there, and even from "the other side" of the authority issue.

I'll say more in the Friendly Friday thread when I have a few minutes.

[Saint Bonaventure]

I am reading Kristian Heal's "Scripture, Sermons, and Practical Exegesis" in this book, and it is just excellent. He is providing clear, helpful descriptions of Christian use of Scripture, sermons, and what we now call "The Liturgy of the Word." He's enabling Latter-day Saints to have conversations with Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, and others.

 I'm learning about Latter-day Saints too.

Just a wonderful book so far.

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 1/23/2023 at 10:13 AM, Eschaton said:

The start of a new "church" happened a few generations later. And contrary to what we learned in the MTC, there was no original unified Christian church in the first century - it was highly diverse and segmented into different communities that believed different things, from the beginning. It only became one unified church centuries later, with the advent of established orthodoxy and Catholicism. But that unified church didn't much resemble Jesus' original movement at all. But neither is the LDS church similar to any first century Christian organization - nor is any other existing church. 

Don't Catholics claim the apostolic line of succession is unbroken, and Peter came to Rome, and all that?

[HappyJackWagon]

This looks like a very interesting book.

On 1/23/2023 at 12:51 PM, Buckeye said:

It’s a great book. I use it in personal, family, and Sunday school study during this NT study year. 

How are these topics received in Sunday School? It seems like any possibility of subverting the idea of the Great (complete) Apostasy would also be viewed as an assault on the need for a Restoration and would therefore be met with vigorous opposition.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This looks like a very interesting book.

How are these topics received in Sunday School? It seems like any possibility of subverting the idea of the Great (complete) Apostasy would also be viewed as an assault on the need for a Restoration and would therefore be met with vigorous opposition.

It is not a refutation of the apostasy. It is just a focus more on the loss of authority (so still an apostasy) and less a cabal of wickedness throughout Christianity systematically purging the true gospel from the primitive church.

[Buckeye]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This looks like a very interesting book.

How are these topics received in Sunday School? It seems like any possibility of subverting the idea of the Great (complete) Apostasy would also be viewed as an assault on the need for a Restoration and would therefore be met with vigorous opposition.

So far I’ve just taken my copy with me to SS and recommended it as a general resource. There haven’t been topics yet where I felt to share something from it. Frankly, I don’t expect the apostasy to be discussed much, if at all, in my ward. We’ll see.