Black member told she can't marry a white member because her 'seed is cursed'

[Vanguard]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If she is past her childbearing years then it seems sketchy for her to imply or allude to the idea that this was recent stuff.

Yes. It's noteworthy that I couldn't find anywhere on the podcast where time frames are discussed (I ended watching a good portion of it ) nor was any time frame mentioned in Newsweek. It does give off a 'feel' that this was recent although she has been out of the faith for almost 6 years now (she reported this in the podcast).

[teddyaware]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is possible this is a lie but I have heard equally disgusting teachings along these lines from church members and leaders.

Thankfully those holding these views have mostly been shamed into silence but it still pops out every so often. It is a plausible story. I was told twice that my white skin proves some kind of premortal faithfulness in a church teaching setting. I have heard that women potentially getting the priesthood would be “ten times as bad” as the 1978 revelation. I know a black girl who fled my YSA ward due to really weird racial stereotyping. Racism is alive and well in the church membership. Some members embracing white nationalism shows we have a long way to go. the Founding Fathers were inspired of God 

The  label ‘white nationalist’ has become a highly unfair catchall because in today’s environment the sincere belief that the Founding Fathers were inspired of God when they wrote and adopted the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States will get an individual instantly labeled as a virulent white nationalist by the woke mob . Do you doubt that if a humble, decent Latter-Day Saint quoted the following words of the Lord Jesus Christ himself, at virtually any college campus in America today, that he wouldn’t immediately be branded as a dangerous “white nationalist” who deserves nothing less than cancelation and banishment?

80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood. (Doctrine and Covenants 101)

and…

 

5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.

6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil. (Doctrine and Covenants 98)

If it hasn’t happened already, I won’t be even slightly surprised if some day the woke members of the Church will demand that the above verses of holy writ be expunged from the scriptures so as not to offend those who assert that the Founding Fathers were the original proponents of white nationalism, even if it is the Lord who uttered those words. And mark my words, the day is also going to come when the preaching of the restored gospel will be banned as ‘hate speech.’ In your heart, you know I’m right.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

To be fair, he had moved in only a few years before from a predominately white western state.  And, yes, everyone knew he drew it since he wasn't alone in the room.  Since I live in a southern state, the schools may teach a very different version of history about the Confederate flag than you learned.  I went to high school with black kids who wore shirts and hats with Confederate flags on them, who also had bumper stickers on their cars with the same flag.  What were you saying about our education system? 

Mostly that understanding that the Confederacy was a bunch of loser traitors and “The Lost Cause” myth is a weird fetish in the South that should be beaten into submission.

Why would someone from a western state not learn about the Civil War?

I have never heard the ‘I have a black friend who likes the confederate flag so it can’t be racist’ argument and I wish I had never heard it.

Edited January 20, 2023 by The Nehor

[BlueDreams]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

 

I have never heard the ‘I have a black friend who likes the confederate flag so it can’t be racist’ argument and I wish I had never heard it.

I have. It drives me nuts. Along with just about every "I know a black person" argument. If you only know a handful and the majority seems to disagree with them, that's probably not a good sign. 

Personally I feel about as comfortable around a confederate flag as I do other symbols of oppression and willful ignorance. Also grew up in the south...well technically. Northern VA was not exactly rooting for the south to rise again. And TX is south...but also TX.

 

 

 

With luv, 

BD 

 

 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, gopher said:

The news story doesn't give any indication that she is past her childbearing years, or reveal when the discussions took place, and contains no photos.  But it sounded like her discussions with her leaders were recent which gave the impression she wasn't too old to have kids.  She quotes her leaders saying:  "You are older, you have served the mission, you are a great candidate for marriage but you need to find a Black man."  She then claims they explain to her that her seed will be cursed if she marries a white man.  Apparently Calm and BlueDreams found a photo of her on the podcast page where she appears to be an older woman, possibly past her childbearing years.  It was newsworthy to me since it was published by a legit news organization so I assumed they did some fact checking before publishing it.

Mormonstories website has a picture of her. 

[JustAnAustralian]

4 hours ago, gopher said:

She then claims they explain to her that her seed will be cursed if she marries a white man. 

That seems odd to me. If her seed was going to be cursed, wouldn't it be cursed regardless of who she married?

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

That seems odd to me. If her seed was going to be cursed, wouldn't it be cursed regardless of who she married?

She mentions this herself as a duh moment in her response to them. So it sounds like if it did occur as described it had to be quite sometime ago, maybe someone hanging on to the ideas preban even without the justification of the ban preventing priesthood for those children and maybe they were trying not to make it sound as racist as it comes across by making it out as applying to both blacks and nonblacks  equally, that it was mixing race that was the issue, not her black lineage. 
 

I could see this reasoning coming from one person, it would be quite odd coming from several as it is implied. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Calm

[gopher]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Mostly that understanding that the Confederacy was a bunch of loser traitors and “The Lost Cause” myth is a weird fetish in the South that should be beaten into submission.

Why would someone from a western state not learn about the Civil War?

I have never heard the ‘I have a black friend who likes the confederate flag so it can’t be racist’ argument and I wish I had never heard it.

Hold up - that definitely wasn't the argument I was making so you must have gotten that idea elsewhere!  I just thought it was funny they were clueless about wearing the Confederate flag.  But times have changed a lot since then and I doubt you would find anyone doing that in high school today.   I was also making fun of the educational system when I was in high school - my 11th grade American History teacher did claim that since the South was tricked into surrendering,  the South was never defeated and the war still hasn't ended.  Crazy stuff.  I don't think that is being taught anymore.

[gopher]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Mormonstories website has a picture of her. 

Thanks, I was hoping to avoid going there, but I was curious.  A quick google search found Dehlin's exmo reddit post about it:   "A first: One of our interviews is getting national coverage - Channel Achenbach on being black and Mormon" with a link to the Newsweek article.  Anyone read the comments in the Newsweek article?  Just curious if it's the real Daniel C Peterson that commented there.

 

[Calm]

Thanks for posting her name, somehow I screwed up which explains the lack of pictures when I first looked. 
 

Here is one which makes me suspect she is older, good makeup job, but necks are good for showing age more accurately usually, and unless the picture is distorted, I am guessing she is older. 
 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

From her bio attached to the YouTube, no way was this recent (two marriages, two divorces and two sons take time and the counsel would have been prior to all of that, add in six years since she has been out of the Church):

Edited January 20, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

I checked out some of her FB page, I can’t tell if she is on her third marriage (white guy, they look like they have fun) or if the blurb is wrong about her second dissolving.  Been married 6 years. 
 

She has a picture of one of her sons in 2015, I am rotten at ages, so could be anywhere from 8-12, I am guessing. Which makes him at least 15 now and he is from her second marriage, so guessing at least 5 years from the ‘counsel’ to his birth, so minimum 20 years, though I bet it’s more. 
 

She grew up in Texas and is shown as living in American Fork. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Calm

[JustAnAustralian]

Based on her twitter profile she was 18 in 1990.

Edited January 20, 2023 by JustAnAustralian

[Calm]

So since she had been on a mission and was seen as older, this likely happened mid to late 90s.

[gopher]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

So since she had been on a mission and was seen as older, this likely happened mid to late 90s.

Thanks, the story is becoming less compelling the more I learn about her and her Tiktok channel.  It may become more interesting if any of her past leaders come forward to admit or dispute her accusations.  The news story was deceptive in making you think she is still a member instead of mentioning she left the church years ago.

[Thinking]

After the ban was lifted, not all members moved toward full acceptance of blacks at the same rate. There are most likely some that still haven't arrived.

There is a song from the 80s by Bruce Hornsby & the Range called "The Way It Is" that relevant to this situation. Here is a line from that song.

"The law don't change another's mind when all it sees at the hiring time is the line on the color bar."

[rodheadlee]

After what happened to Madison Brooks we are all cursed. The human race is not worth saving.

[Stargazer]

On 1/19/2023 at 11:00 AM, The Nehor said:

It is possible this is a lie but I have heard equally disgusting teachings along these lines from church members and leaders.

Thankfully those holding these views have mostly been shamed into silence but it still pops out every so often. It is a plausible story. I was told twice that my white skin proves some kind of premortal faithfulness in a church teaching setting. I have heard that women potentially getting the priesthood would be “ten times as bad” as the 1978 revelation. I know a black girl who fled my YSA ward due to really weird racial stereotyping. Racism is alive and well in the church membership. Some members embracing white nationalism shows we have a long way to go.

It might be alive and well in some areas, but not in others. And in many cases I imagine that it is pretty much unconscious.

I lived for a year back in 1980 in the "deep south", Augusta, Georgia, where there were virtually no black members. A black woman was baptized, and as far as I could tell she wasn't mistreated for her race, but there were some members who, while they were otherwise positive about her, couldn't seem to avoid making inadvertant racist remarks. In the meeting that I remember when she was welcomed into the ward, the presenter made reference to "her kind," not in an unwelcoming or oppositional way, and in fact it was spoken in a kindly way. Like, "How nice it was to have one of her kind" now in the ward. He was so completely unconscious of the patronizing and offensive nature of the way he spoke. Oh man, did I ever cringe. That was the last time she attended church, too. Don't know if it was due to that "welcome" or other things. But, as I said, this was in the deep South. People hamstrung by their culture. 

This ward was associated with the local US Army schools where I was receiving training, and one of my instructors, who was black, turned up at church. He and his family was being taught by the missionaries. I was really pleased, because he was an excellent noncommissioned officer and a great guy! They were baptized not long after that, and I had the privilege of baptizing his 10 year old son! Unfortunately, I had received orders to Europe, so I had no opportunity to help fellowship them. But after seeing what happened with the black lady, I was afraid that the ward would screw up and do something that would cause them to fall away. I wish I knew how that had turned out.

I once had a conversation with our stake president in Washington state, in which he expressed his misgivings about interracial marriages. This would have been around 2000ish. He felt that marriage itself was difficult enough to manage without dragging the pressure of mismatched race into it. There was no doctrinal component to his concern. And before one goes off thinking he was some white supremacist, I should mention that he was of Japanese heritage. He himself had spent his first few years as a boy living in one of those internment camps that President Roosevelt was so kind to provide during WW2, so he was no stranger to racial prejudice. Yet because two of his children had married Caucasian partners, and both marriages had failed due to what he thought was racial disparity, he had doubts that it was a good idea to "mix and marry." On the other hand, one of his sons had served his mission in Japan, and afterwards married a Japanese woman and was then living in Japan in a successful marriage. So I guess that he was making a judgment based on his observed experience. But plenty of non-mixed marriages fail, too, so I think his premise was faulty.

 

[Stargazer]

On 1/19/2023 at 8:44 PM, The Nehor said:

Also, you say young man implying 12 or older. What is wrong with our education system that a 12 year old doesn’t recognize the Confederate battle flag?

Our "education" system might not display such a flag simply because it is so politically incorrect to display it that they can't even show it in a textbook for fear someone goes off the deep end. Try drawing a swastika, even in connection with Hindu religious iconography, and see what happens. It can get you thrown in jail in Germany.

I'm ancient, so I remember when the "F" word was never, ever used. I was 12 when I first heard it being said by some kid I ran into. Afterwards, I asked my father what the word meant, and simply by uttering it I got a very stern lecture. I was terribly embarrassed, and he still didn't even tell me what it referred to (the connection between the word and human reproduction). 

[Stargazer]

On 1/20/2023 at 7:02 PM, Thinking said:

After the ban was lifted, not all members moved toward full acceptance of blacks at the same rate. There are most likely some that still haven't arrived.

There is a song from the 80s by Bruce Hornsby & the Range called "The Way It Is" that relevant to this situation. Here is a line from that song.

"The law don't change another's mind when all it sees at the hiring time is the line on the color bar."

Thanks for clearing that up for me! I had heard that line in the song (I'm a Bruce Hornsby fan), and couldn't quite figure out what it meant.

[Thinking]

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Thanks for clearing that up for me! I had heard that line in the song (I'm a Bruce Hornsby fan), and couldn't quite figure out what it meant.

The rapper 2Pac (Tupac Shakur) sampled "The Way It Is" on his 1998 hit "Changes" and used some of Hornsby's lyrics. It was well done with a powerful message. The irony is that its message surfaced only after 2Pac was a victim of murder. The song was released in 1998. 2Pac died in 1996.

Bruce Hornsby likes what 2Pac did with the song.

"I really liked it. Lots of rappers have used “The Way It Is:” Wyclef, E-40, Snoop. I loved what [Tupac] did with it. I just said, “Go go go.” Link

[The Nehor]

On 1/19/2023 at 4:49 PM, teddyaware said:

The  label ‘white nationalist’ has become a highly unfair catchall because in today’s environment the sincere belief that the Founding Fathers were inspired of God when they wrote and adopted the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States will get an individual instantly labeled as a virulent white nationalist by the woke mob .

What do you mean by “woke”?

[Calm]

Got to say complaining about the use of “white nationalist” as an highly unfair catchall while using “woke” had me laughing, though it is the reverse where a positive term is being misunderstood/misappropriated for a different definition than the actual one.  

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Got to say complaining about the use of “white nationalist” as an highly unfair catchall while using “woke” had me laughing, though it is the reverse where a positive term is being misunderstood/misappropriated for a different definition than the actual one.  

I find that if someone uses “woke” as a nebulous adjective for ‘bad things” it is because they really have no idea what they are actually mad about. Sometimes it is a stand-in for “jewish”. One of the two.