Black member told she can't marry a white member because her 'seed is cursed'

[gopher]

Apparently this was filmed last November, but the video was uploaded this year.  Newsweek ran with this story which was posted on the Mormon Stories Podcast.  She doesn't explain who the leader was that told her black and white people aren't supposed to mix and the church hasn't offered up any comment yet.  Anyone know any more details of her accusations?  It's hard to not be a bit skeptical seeing where she chose to tell her story, but I don't want to dismiss it without more information.  If true, I wonder what that leader would say to Elder Peter Johnson or the black stake president in my area who also has a white wife.

https://www.newsweek.com/mormon-stories-podcast-channel-achenbach-racism-marriage-seed-cursed-1774116

[webbles]

I'm sure there are members who believe that still and I'm sure some of those are in a leadership position.  But I think we can say that it is not an official belief anymore since we have at least one Seventy who is in an interracial marriage and they have 4 kids - https://www.thechurchnews.com/2019/6/10/23215129/general-authority-seventy-peter-m-johnson-general-conference

[gopher]

25 minutes ago, webbles said:

I'm sure there are members who believe that still and I'm sure some of those are in a leadership position.  But I think we can say that it is not an official belief anymore since we have at least one Seventy who is in an interracial marriage and they have 4 kids - https://www.thechurchnews.com/2019/6/10/23215129/general-authority-seventy-peter-m-johnson-general-conference

Yes, that's the Elder Peter Johnson I mentioned above

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, webbles said:

I'm sure there are members who believe that still

Believe that it is intermarriage that curses the children, whether parents are black or white?  That does not line up to how the curse was taught as far as I know.  Have others heard it taught that way?

And why would the children be cursed once the Priesthood Ban was lifted?

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

Apparently this was filmed last November, but the video was uploaded this year.  Newsweek ran with this story which was posted on the Mormon Stories Podcast.  She doesn't explain who the leader was that told her black and white people aren't supposed to mix and the church hasn't offered up any comment yet.  Anyone know any more details of her accusations?  It's hard to not be a bit skeptical seeing where she chose to tell her story, but I don't want to dismiss it without more information.  If true, I wonder what that leader would say to Elder Peter Johnson or the black stake president in my area who also has a white wife.

https://www.newsweek.com/mormon-stories-podcast-channel-achenbach-racism-marriage-seed-cursed-1774116

I believe it’s highly likely that she’s another brazen liar like Rachel Richardson. But the strategy that lies behind the lie is the desire to publicize anew the controversial statements on race made by early LDS church leaders. By bringing to light those 19th century statements, her lie becomes much more plausible and believable. After all, all the gullible crowd needs to know is that past prophets and apostles did say those things and the lie becomes tantamount to being true..

[Calm]

Rather than assuming she is a liar from the get go, I would be interested in hearing other black members’ experiences before drawing that conclusion. It may not be as strange as it appears unfortunately to those of us who have never had a reason to be confronted by such comments. 
 

I could easily believe her if it was some other rationalization that I have seen in the last 40 years. This is a slightly altered version though of one that I heard a lot prior to the ban, so it has the feel of the anti Mormons or even just ignorant individuals who don’t realize they are ignorant misrepresenting actual brief.  As far as I know, this don’t marry for the sake of your children was only shared with whites…though I can see a leader or member unfortunately telling a black member that they wouldn’t want their nonblack spouse to come to resent them or regret their choice when they had sons that couldn’t hold the Priesthood. But after the Ban was lifted, the only reason for that counsel disappeared. 
 

Now if she had said she was told by multiple leaders to marry a black man in order to increase her chance at a successful marriage, I would have no problem believing her at all. 
 

I wouldn’t have a problem with believing her if she said one leader told her it wasn’t natural for races to mix or some variation of that. I am really hoping there isn’t a place left that there will be a majority of leaders teaching such things. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

I’m positive (opinion) this isn’t systemic in church leadership and their directions to members.  That said, I have close family members who are so racist that when other family members have married outside their race, aggressive words have been said at weddings.  The sentiment is disgusting and very much alive.  

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Rather than assuming she is a liar from the get go, I would be interested in hearing other black members’ experiences before drawing that conclusion. It may not be as strange as it appears unfortunately to those of us who have never had a reason to be confronted by such comments. 
 

I could easily believe her if it was some other rationalization that I have seen in the last 40 years. This is a slightly altered version though of one that I heard a lot prior to the ban, so it has the feel of the anti Mormons or even just ignorant individuals who don’t realize they are ignorant misrepresenting actual brief.  As far as I know, this don’t marry for the sake of your children was only shared with whites…though I can see a leader or member unfortunately telling a black member that they wouldn’t want their nonblack spouse to come to resent them or regret their choice when they had sons that couldn’t hold the Priesthood. But after the Ban was lifted, the only reason for that counsel disappeared. 
 

Now if she had said she was told by multiple leaders to marry a black man in order to increase her chance at a successful marriage, I would have no problem believing her at all. 
 

I wouldn’t have a problem with believing her if she said one leader told her it wasn’t natural for races to mix or some variation of that. I am really hoping there isn’t a place left that there will be a majority of leaders teaching such things. 

The closer this happened to at least the 1970's the more likely I would be to believe it. I haven't heard this exact type of story happen in my age cohort (so say the last 10-20 years) and I don't know how it could be maintained because we are definitely past the era where the number of black members was that miniscule, though still small.

I've heard/experienced more watered down things that honestly just seem like garden variety american racism when it comes to interracial dating, or fairly divorced from real-life implications for varying old racial beliefs/theories. So for example a woman once was freaking out to me about her daughter who was dating a black man expecting me to understand her concern. Minus the irony being lost on her as to why I definitely wouldn't get her concern, there was nothing overtly religious about her objections and her reactions were similar to varying minority friends who had bad dating experiences with certain white people and their families. 

 

with luv,

BD

[Amulek]

7 hours ago, gopher said:

Newsweek ran with this story which was posted on the Mormon Stories Podcast.

This whole critique-by-podcast thing has quickly become my absolute least favorite form of criticism.

I pulled up her Mormon Stories Podcast page to check out her story only to find out that it was a three part series with a 456 minute runtime!

To help put that in perspective, that is longer than Avengers: Infinity War (2h 29m), Avengers: Endgame (3h 2m), and The Empire Strikes Back (2h 4m) combined.

I'm sorry, but there's just no way on earth I am going to sink that kind of time on a flipping podcast.

 

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

The closer this happened to at least the 1970's the more likely I would be to believe it. I haven't heard this exact type of story happen in my age cohort (so say the last 10-20 years) and I don't know how it could be maintained because we are definitely past the era where the number of black members was that miniscule, though still small...

with luv,

BD

She looks at least ten years younger than me and more likely 20 (I am a very, very bad judge of age though) and I married young and shortly after the ban was lifted, so my guess with her having been on a mission (assuming that part of the story is true) and older, she was probably late 20s and so this or some version of it most likely took place 15-20 years ago. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Calm

[gopher]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

This whole critique-by-podcast thing has quickly become my absolute least favorite form of criticism.

I pulled up her Mormon Stories Podcast page to check out her story only to find out that it was a three part series with a 456 minute runtime!

To help put that in perspective, that is longer than Avengers: Infinity War (2h 29m), Avengers: Endgame (3h 2m), and The Empire Strikes Back (2h 4m) combined.

I'm sorry, but there's just no way on earth I am going to sink that kind of time on a flipping podcast.

 

Thanks, I only read the news story and didn't bother to check the podcast page.  I'll wait for someone else to listen to all 456 minutes and report back.

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

She looks at least ten years younger than me and more likely 20 (I am a very, very bad judge of age though) and I married young and shortly after the ban was lifted, so my guess with her having been on a mission (assuming that part of the story is true) and older, she was probably late 20s and so this or some version of it most likely took place 15-20 years ago. 

It's hard to tell as she wears a lot of makeup in her pics/interview. She looks around my parents age I think....so mid 50's maybe? I'm assuming more like 20-25 years ago? 15-20 seems a little too recent for what she's saying IMHO....well maybe if you were in small communities. Even mid 90's seems weird. Still, My bio dad* talks about being one of only a handful of Africans in i think UT county back in the mid-late 80's and that's when i think most of having the miniscule presence in the church, particularly in UT and other mtn west population was pre-90's especially. I doubt adding 5-10 more years would have shifted that too strongly.  

Just an FYI, I won't be watching the interview. Sucker is long and I'm really not that interested. But because of that, I'll also not assume her story is false just because it doesn't fit my immediate experiences. 

*some of his stories of playing with the racism in UT are funny. He once kept away prospective new roommates beyond the one other african friend he was living with by making a small africana shrine in the living room. Whenever someone checking out the place would pop by, he'd make sure to make a show of bowing to it.  

Edited January 18, 2023 by BlueDreams

[Calm]

Early mid 80s there were very few blacks in the area and I didn’t notice much change for quite a few years when we were visiting. 

[BlueDreams]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

Early mid 80s there were very few blacks in the area and I didn’t notice much change for quite a few years when we were visiting. 

without the presence, it would mean there wouldn't be solid pushback for the beliefs for a while....and also few to experience the racism first hand. (I'm assuming most her story took place in UT because I could see that at least part of it did....but I could be wrong)

[gopher]

Do you see anything in the news story that wouldn't make you think this happened fairly recently?  Everyone discussing the story on another website seemed to think it was recent.  She is demanding the church apologizes to her.  She says her second demand to the church is:  "You are gonna have to say 'hey, we are human, we got it wrong, we messed up, we have no problems with interracial marriage, we have no problem with Black people."

Her story is much more likely to be true if it happened 40 - 50 years ago.  If so, that would have been an important detail to include in the story.  I hope she isn't being taken advantage of by unethical people hoping to use her story to attack the church.  I guess we'll see as more of her story comes out.

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

Do you see anything in the news story that wouldn't make you think this happened fairly recently?  Everyone discussing the story on another website seemed to think it was recent.  She is demanding the church apologizes to her.  She says her second demand to the church is:  "You are gonna have to say 'hey, we are human, we got it wrong, we messed up, we have no problems with interracial marriage, we have no problem with Black people."

Her story is much more likely to be true if it happened 40 - 50 years ago.  If so, that would have been an important detail to include in the story.  I hope she isn't being taken advantage of by unethical people hoping to use her story to attack the church.  I guess we'll see as more of her story comes out.

I just have a hard time picturing this as super recent. I've heard some really uncomfortable race-based stories, theories, and beliefs on display in the last 20 years that I've been more conscious of said issues in the church (around 14). Once many years ago there was a string of topics so tactless around race on this board that Nemesis apologized to me via DM after cutting the threads. More than once I have seen people give a plethora of theories as to how the ban was justifiable based on theories/beliefs common to older eras in the church that they've watered down or insisted aren't really about race....but are. There was that professor who got a good public thrashing for doing such when a news source interviewed him...and a number cringe worthy student comments/actions caught on camara. I've sat in a ton of meetings, classes, groups, etc where race was a main topic and grievances/poor experiences within the church were shared often by minorities with an audience that was largely minorities (which can change the level of sharing). 

I know there are likely many people who screened me out for dating because of race. The mutual app made that pretty clear, even though I'd seen hints of it before for years. I know many black/part-black women have experienced the same. 

I know there were places I've been where there were plenty of people in the room who were uncomfortable/uncertain with me because of race. I know I'm not alone in that experience as I've heard similar poor encounters from other minorities.

I've seen people defend and discuss the quote that was in the manual suggesting caution about dating outside one's race/culture up into I think the early 2000's. Or later when it was removed, just bringing degrees of caution and concern to doing so. 

But I have never seen or heard of someone being told they shouldn't date white as a black/part-black person because of "the curse" within the last few decades.  

 I haven't seen/heard of someone being counseled specifically that they need to date black by a leader in general, let alone a group of leaders (since she says "they). Not within my generation at least. People have been shot down and corrected for less by higher authorities...and i would expect that would have happened if, say, she shared this story to people at Genesis or with other members who had connections within the church to area leaders or general authorities. The older this story is - say 30-40 years ago - I'm more likely to believe it. But I struggle to picture this being that systemic outside of really cloistered/small majority-white communities where their views have never really been challenged.

That doesn't mean she's lying, even if this did happen recently.  If she lived in a single community with a couple of leaders that believed that bs, and was one of a couple black members in the neighboring region, it could be a thing maybe. But It's by no means representative of the problems facing the church with race in the last 10-15 years especially. We have work to do and things could definitely be better, though. I just don't know how helpful looking at the most sensational problem with a small amount of church members (if it happened fairly recently) really addresses this. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited January 19, 2023 by BlueDreams

[The Nehor]

18 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I believe it’s highly likely that she’s another brazen liar like Rachel Richardson. But the strategy that lies behind the lie is the desire to publicize anew the controversial statements on race made by early LDS church leaders. By bringing to light those 19th century statements, her lie becomes much more plausible and believable. After all, all the gullible crowd needs to know is that past prophets and apostles did say those things and the lie becomes tantamount to being true..

It is possible this is a lie but I have heard equally disgusting teachings along these lines from church members and leaders.

Thankfully those holding these views have mostly been shamed into silence but it still pops out every so often. It is a plausible story. I was told twice that my white skin proves some kind of premortal faithfulness in a church teaching setting. I have heard that women potentially getting the priesthood would be “ten times as bad” as the 1978 revelation. I know a black girl who fled my YSA ward due to really weird racial stereotyping. Racism is alive and well in the church membership. Some members embracing white nationalism shows we have a long way to go.

[gopher]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is possible this is a lie but I have heard equally disgusting teachings along these lines from church members and leaders.

Thankfully those holding these views have mostly been shamed into silence but it still pops out every so often. It is a plausible story. I was told twice that my white skin proves some kind of premortal faithfulness in a church teaching setting. I have heard that women potentially getting the priesthood would be “ten times as bad” as the 1978 revelation. I know a black girl who fled my YSA ward due to really weird racial stereotyping. Racism is alive and well in the church membership. Some members embracing white nationalism shows we have a long way to go.

Sure, people say dumb stuff all the time, often without thinking it all the way through.  I'm not a big fan of shaming though.  It works great in politics where the goal seems to be to humiliate and destroy your opponent (not a fan of that either).  But there doesn't seem to be much regard for any damage caused.  Years ago a white activist member spotted a white young man drawing of a Confederate flag on a chalkboard in church.  She reported to the bishop and stake president (both white) that racism and white supremacy were a big problem in the ward.  The next week a statement condemning racism was read to all the wards in Sacrament meeting.  No one bothered to talk to the young man before humiliating him.  Once I found out, I did talk to him and found out that he had seen a picture of the flag earlier that day, thought it looked cool so he drew it on the chalkboard.  It was clear he had no clue that the flag was offensive to some.  He said he had never seen it before that day.

I don't know if racism is alive and well in church membership.  It would be awkward in my current ward and stake if you wanted a temple recommend since you could be interviewed by our black Bishop and our black Stake President.

[Amulek]

15 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Just an FYI, I won't be watching the interview. Sucker is long and I'm really not that interested. But because of that, I'll also not assume her story is false just because it doesn't fit my immediate experiences.

For the record, that's pretty much where I'm at as well. I am unwilling to spend 7.5+ hours listening to her story, but that doesn't mean I think she's making things up.

 

[Vanguard]

I too don't care enough to listen to the lengthy broadcast. I'm going only off the Newsweek article when I say it's simply a bridge too far for me to accept that leaders (plural!) told her she "must only marry a Black man to prevent her children from being cursed". And in response to her questioning this position that they said "yes, because your seed is cursed. If your seed mixes with their seed then your children, your husband won't be cursed, but your children will be. Do you want that for your family?" Good grief. Now, could they have made what I would consider insensitive remarks? Yup. It happens all the time. And I believe in some of those cases, the member's sensibilities are so wounded that they confabulate (or lie?) about a version of what was said that is nowhere close to what actually happened. And yes, I believe this also happens all the time.

Too add: My caveat is I guess it's possible that this could have happened 30+ years ago though still highly disturbing.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Vanguard

[bluebell]

17 hours ago, gopher said:

Do you see anything in the news story that wouldn't make you think this happened fairly recently?  Everyone discussing the story on another website seemed to think it was recent.  She is demanding the church apologizes to her.  She says her second demand to the church is:  "You are gonna have to say 'hey, we are human, we got it wrong, we messed up, we have no problems with interracial marriage, we have no problem with Black people."

Her story is much more likely to be true if it happened 40 - 50 years ago.  If so, that would have been an important detail to include in the story.  I hope she isn't being taken advantage of by unethical people hoping to use her story to attack the church.  I guess we'll see as more of her story comes out.

How can it be recent if it’s about a leader warning her against having children in a mixed-race marriage?  It seems likely she is past the childbearing years. 

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, gopher said:

Sure, people say dumb stuff all the time, often without thinking it all the way through.  I'm not a big fan of shaming though.  It works great in politics where the goal seems to be to humiliate and destroy your opponent (not a fan of that either).  But there doesn't seem to be much regard for any damage caused.  Years ago a white activist member spotted a white young man drawing of a Confederate flag on a chalkboard in church.  She reported to the bishop and stake president (both white) that racism and white supremacy were a big problem in the ward.  The next week a statement condemning racism was read to all the wards in Sacrament meeting.  No one bothered to talk to the young man before humiliating him.  Once I found out, I did talk to him and found out that he had seen a picture of the flag earlier that day, thought it looked cool so he drew it on the chalkboard.  It was clear he had no clue that the flag was offensive to some.  He said he had never seen it before that day.

I don't know if racism is alive and well in church membership.  It would be awkward in my current ward and stake if you wanted a temple recommend since you could be interviewed by our black Bishop and our black Stake President.

I am not a big fan of shaming minors either. Adults on the other hand……….

Also how is a general letter a form of public humiliation. Did everyone know who drew it? If so whoever spread that around needs to repent for being a gossip.

Also, you say young man implying 12 or older. What is wrong with our education system that a 12 year old doesn’t recognize the Confederate battle flag?

[gopher]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

How can it be recent if it’s about a leader warning her against having children in a mixed-race marriage?  It seems likely she is past the childbearing years. 

The news story doesn't give any indication that she is past her childbearing years, or reveal when the discussions took place, and contains no photos.  But it sounded like her discussions with her leaders were recent which gave the impression she wasn't too old to have kids.  She quotes her leaders saying:  "You are older, you have served the mission, you are a great candidate for marriage but you need to find a Black man."  She then claims they explain to her that her seed will be cursed if she marries a white man.  Apparently Calm and BlueDreams found a photo of her on the podcast page where she appears to be an older woman, possibly past her childbearing years.  It was newsworthy to me since it was published by a legit news organization so I assumed they did some fact checking before publishing it.

[gopher]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I am not a big fan of shaming minors either. Adults on the other hand……….

Also how is a general letter a form of public humiliation. Did everyone know who drew it? If so whoever spread that around needs to repent for being a gossip.

Also, you say young man implying 12 or older. What is wrong with our education system that a 12 year old doesn’t recognize the Confederate battle flag?

To be fair, he had moved in only a few years before from a predominately white western state.  And, yes, everyone knew he drew it since he wasn't alone in the room.  Since I live in a southern state, the schools may teach a very different version of history about the Confederate flag than you learned.  I went to high school with black kids who wore shirts and hats with Confederate flags on them, who also had bumper stickers on their cars with the same flag.  What were you saying about our education system? 

Edited January 19, 2023 by gopher

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

The news story doesn't give any indication that she is past her childbearing years, or reveal when the discussions took place, and contains no photos.  But it sounded like her discussions with her leaders were recent which gave the impression she wasn't too old to have kids.  She quotes her leaders saying:  "You are older, you have served the mission, you are a great candidate for marriage but you need to find a Black man."  She then claims they explain to her that her seed will be cursed if she marries a white man.  Apparently Calm and BlueDreams found a photo of her on the podcast page where she appears to be an older woman, possibly past her childbearing years.  It was newsworthy to me since it was published by a legit news organization so I assumed they did some fact checking before publishing it.

If she is past her childbearing years then it seems sketchy for her to imply or allude to the idea that this was recent stuff.