Sunday second-hour meetings are to open with a prayer

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The informal ones, but they are taught to be careful and precise in how they pronounce them, which is different from how they would typically be pronounced in informal conversation. 

Thanks for the info.  I find it interesting/perplexing that we are instructed to use the formal pronouns in English and the Swedish are instructed to use the informal pronouns in Swedish.  

My inquisitive nature (which does best when it understands why it is being told to do something) wonders, why are English speakers required to have a formal relationship with God in prayer and other-language speakers are not.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

I must admit, it is interesting that yielding to preferred pronouns is the thing they are putting their foot down on amidst all of the "rampant" and "startling" changes.  Perhaps we can all learn from this uniform and consistent, and thus important message. 

I think it’s quite a stretch to characterize emphasizing the proper language of prayer as “yielding to preferred pronouns,” but I get that you’re looking for a way to advance an ideology. 

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, Rain said:

I think of the use of "thee" and "thou" in prayer like the use "ma'am" and "sir" in the south. In the south you are taught to use them as a sign of respect to your elders, teachers etc, but if you spend any time in the south you realize that at least half the time people are using "ma'am" out of tradition or because they are expected to do so.  There will be some who do use them out of respect. 

So it really doesn't matter to me if someone uses them in a prayer or "you". My personal experience is that when I got over the idea that I had to say "thee" and started using "you" that my prayers became much more meaningful despite using the other terms for more than 50 years.  I lost no respect for God.  I don't intend any disrespect for Elder Oaks and it certainly is not done out of rebellion. My ENTIRE reason for using "you" is that it helps me connect with God better.

 

I feel the same.  

It was when I became less worried about whether or not I was using the right format or the correct language, and instead focused on speaking sincerely and honestly, that my relationship with God (and my Savior) grew deeper.

It is disconcerting to have someone judge that as me being rebellious or disrespectful.  And of course, the fruits of it don't at all point to rebellion or disrespect either.

(like I said earlier, I generally use thee, thy, etc. when praying, but sometimes, when trying to use those forms has gotten in the way of what I was trying to express, i haven't.)

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thanks for the info.  I find it interesting/perplexing that we are instructed to use the formal pronouns in English and the Swedish are instructed to use the informal pronouns in Swedish.  

My inquisitive nature (which does best when it understands why it is being told to do something) wonders, why are English speakers required to have a formal relationship with God in prayer and other-language speakers are not.

But what I have explained here (about Swedish members being taught to use precise pronunciations) indicates a more formal, respectful tone in prayers than in typical conversation, don’t you think?

[blackstrap]

Any of you from the South ever heard a "ya'all " slipped in to a prayer ? 😁

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But what I have explained here (about Swedish members being taught to use precise pronunciations) indicates a more formal, respectful tone in prayers than in typical conversation, don’t you think?

Maybe, I don't know Swedish.  I have no reason to doubt what you are saying.

As I understand it, in spanish it's the same pronoun and pronunciation as the informal ones used with family and friends.  It sounds like it's the same in German. So my question still stands I suppose, even if it's not exactly applicable to Swedish members.

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think it’s quite a stretch to characterize emphasizing the proper language of prayer as “yielding to preferred pronouns,”

I don't.   By proper language, the brethren are specifically highlighting the importance of yielding to preferred pronouns.  That is what makes it "proper language".  It wouldn't be loving and respectful otherwise. 

Quote

Members should pray using words that express love and respect for Heavenly Father. In English, this includes the pronouns Thee, Thy, Thine, and Thou when addressing Him

Using pronouns (Thee, Thine, and Thou) which express love and respect for Heavenly Father, even when one would prefer to use other pronouns is aptly characterized as "yielding to preferred pronouns".  

Using language (specifically, pronouns are mentioned here) that is loving and respectful to God is the take away here. 

The two great commandments are to love God, and love others.   If yielding to preferred pronouns is how we love God, then perhaps the same principles apply elsewhere.  Seems like pretty sound logic to me, and is further evidenced by studies showing the improved mental health of those we show love, courtesy, and respect to in yielding to their preferred pronouns.  Using language that shows love and respect and improves the mental health and well-being of others should be accepted as a universal principle.  

Edited December 22, 2022 by pogi

[Hamba Tuhan]

38 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I find it interesting/perplexing that we are instructed to use the formal pronouns in English and the Swedish are instructed to use the informal pronouns in Swedish.

Actually, as early as the 13th century, English speakers had begun to use you as the 'formal' pronoun in the singular. Thou/thee therefore are technically the intimate (informal? to me, there is a difference) pronouns in English. I understand that the loss of these intimate pronouns from everyday speech has rendered them 'formal in feeling' for nearly all English speakers, but that's not linguistically accurate.

Interestingly, usage in the KJV does not reflect what was contemporary usage when it was translated:

Quote

The King James translation of the Bible (1611) uses thou and you as singular and plural pronouns — reverting to the original function of the pronouns and ignoring the subtle shades of meaning they had in early modern speech. So the Biblical usage would have sounded archaic even to its original 17th-century readers.

Because of its use in the Bible and in poetry, thou sounds stilted and old-fashioned to modern English speakers. But to Shakespeare and his contemporaries, thou was less stuffy or formal sounding than you.

 

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It is disconcerting to have someone judge that as me being rebellious or disrespectful.

If anyone is judging how you pray, s/he is a jerk.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Maybe, I don't know Swedish.  I have no reason to doubt what you are saying.

 

You don’t have to know Swedish to grasp that being taught to be precise in pronunciation indicates a more respectful tone when praying than one would apply in informal conversation. 

[bluebell]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

You don’t have to know Swedish to grasp that being taught to be precise in pronunciation indicates a more respectful tone when praying than one would apply in informal conversation. 

I have no idea how a person would be more precise in saying the word 'you'.  In English that's not a thing (you either say "you" or you don't).  In Spanish that's not a thing (you either use the informal "you" or you don't).  Since I don't know Swedish, I can't even say how being precise when saying "you" would work.

So yes, I do have to know Swedish to grasp what you are talking about. 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Actually, as early as the 13th century, English speakers had begun to use ye/you as the 'formal' pronouns in the singular. Thou/thee therefore are technically the intimate (informal? to me, there is a difference) pronouns in English. I understand that the loss of these intimate pronouns from everyday speech has rendered them 'formal in feeling' for nearly all English speakers, but that's not linguistically accurate.

If anyone is judging how you pray, s/he is a jerk.

Yes, we've discussed that a bit earlier in the thread.  For some reason--in English--we've taken the informal way of speaking and made it into the formal and only respectful way to speak to God, and then asked (or maybe required?) people to use it in prayer according to our made up interpretation.  

That is one of the reasons that I struggle with the instructions.

[Rain]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You don’t have to know Swedish to grasp that being taught to be precise in pronunciation indicates a more respectful tone when praying than one would apply in informal conversation. 

Being taught to be more precise doesn't indicate a more respectful tone to me.  In fact, respect has no part in that understanding for me.  What it indicates to me is a more traditional and authoritarian tone. So being Swedish or living in Sweden may give some people some understanding that others of us may not grasp naturally. 

[bluebell]

I had asked my missionary son (who is in a spanish speaking mission) what pronoun they taught people to use when they were teaching them to pray and he said that they teach people to use the informal form of you because it's more personal.

So it sounds like Spanish speakers are taught to be informal and personal when praying to God (but still respectful and reverent I'm sure) while English speakers are taught we must be formal when praying or it's disrespectful.

It's a weird double standard that I wish someone (in the know) would explain.

[pogi]

44 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thanks for the info.  I find it interesting/perplexing that we are instructed to use the formal pronouns in English and the Swedish are instructed to use the informal pronouns in Swedish.  

My inquisitive nature (which does best when it understands why it is being told to do something) wonders, why are English speakers required to have a formal relationship with God in prayer and other-language speakers are not.

It does make one wonder.  Why would God’s preferred pronouns change from formal for some to informal for others?  

I think it is probably more about respecting traditions and sentiment of men than God.

Edited December 22, 2022 by pogi

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

It does make one wonder.  Why would God’s preferred pronouns change from formal for some to informal for others?  It makes one wonder if this is about what God wants at all, or if it is an example of men using and dictating their preferred pronouns for God.

I would like to understand the different standards, but I don't think anyone who is in charge of dictating church policy on prayers is going to ever explain their reasoning, so we'll likely never know.

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

For some reason--in English--we've taken the informal way of speaking and made it into the formal and only respectful way to speak to God, and then asked (or maybe required?) people to use it in prayer according to our made up interpretation.

Perhaps influenced by other languages that I speak/read, thou in English feels intimate to me.

And yes, the reasons given seem to be all over the place.

I think the one common element is that, in every language that I can speak/read (three Germanic, three Romance, one Slavic, and one Austronesian), the pronouns conventionally used in prayer are not ones frequently used in everyday speech.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[bluebell]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

Perhaps influenced by other languages that I speak/read, thou/thee in English feels intimate to me.

And yes, the reasons given seem to be all over the place.

I think the one common element is that, in every language that I can speak/read (three Germanic, three Romance, one Slavic, and one Austronesian), the pronouns conventionally used in prayer are not ones frequently used in everyday speech.

In Spanish (and someone said German but I have no first hand knowledge of that myself), it seems to be the opposite.  Unless I suppose you didn't speak to your friends and family every day.

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

I have no idea how a person would be more precise in saying the word 'you'.  In English that's not a thing (you either say "you" or you don't).  In Spanish that's not a thing (you either use the informal "you" or you don't).  Since I don't know Swedish, I can't even say how being precise when saying "you" would work.

So yes, I do have to know Swedish to grasp what you are talking about. 

I don’t get why you would have to know Swedish (or any other language) to understand conceptually that speakers of that language pronounce a given word differently in one setting than they would in another. 
 

But to clarify, the Swedish word for the pronoun you (informal) is dig. In typical, everyday conversation, it would be pronounced “day”. But in a more formal setting — such as prayer — it would have the more precise pronunciation “deeg”. 
 

Again, the reason for the difference is the greater precision in pronunciation gives a more respectful tone to the prayer. 
 

P.S. It’s similar with the Swedish words for I (jag, pronounced “yah” vs “yawg”) and me (mig, pronounced “may” vs “meeg). 
 

And the Swedish word for they is de. Its precise pronunciation is similar to “deh,” but in conversational Swedish, it has become corrupted to “dome,” likely because the object form of the pronoun, dem (translation of them) is typically pronounced “dome” in everyday conversation, although in prayer, our Swedish members are taught to pronounce it “dem.”

Edited December 22, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I had asked my missionary son (who is in a spanish speaking mission) what pronoun they taught people to use when they were teaching them to pray and he said that they teach people to use the informal form of you because it's more personal.

So it sounds like Spanish speakers are taught to be informal and personal when praying to God (but still respectful and reverent I'm sure) while English speakers are taught we must be formal when praying or it's disrespectful.

It's a weird double standard that I wish someone (in the know) would explain.

It is odd since the English ones are the old timey informal. If the leadership hadn’t pressed on it being a formal method of communication it would actually be consistent.

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

In Spanish (and someone said German but I have no first hand knowledge of that myself), it seems to be the opposite.  Unless I suppose you didn't speak to your friends and family every day.

It really depends. I have known German-speaking families where in-laws and even grandparents are referred to with Sie and not du.

A Spanish-speaking member of our ward recently passed away. I had known her for 20 years, had frequently been in her home, etc. I was close enough that her family asked me to give the closing prayer at her funeral this week. I have never used anything other than Usted with her.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think the one common element is that, in every language that I can speak/read (three Germanic, three Romance, one Slavic, and one Austronesian), the pronouns conventionally used in prayer are not ones frequently used in everyday speech.

Bingo.
 

Because of our reverence and respect for God, we use different forms when addressing Him than we do in everyday speech. Prophets and apostles comprehend this, even if some of us do not. So they teach us accordingly, hoping we will come to understand if we don’t already. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I just wonder what makes them the "proper" pronouns?  Tradition?

I think the association for English speakers with scripture (KJV and the English version of the BoM) helps them create a sense of the sacred in our prayers, which is something we can benefit from at least some of the time (I happen to think we also benefit from experiencing God right where we are, where ever that is much of the time, but especially when we are struggling).  But if we are too conscious and struggling with the language, we could lose the spirit altogether rather than increasing it.  Think of it like never having worn veils and other coverings and struggling in the temple to put such on correctly, but having them slide off or be too tight and having to focus so much attention on getting them right, we walk out of the temple only irritated at the experience rather than uplifted by communing with the divine.
 

Maybe for those it creates awkwardness for, trying it out in small prayers to begin with mixed in with the way one usually say them could lead to greater comfort and the pronouns eventually working to contribute to prayer holding for one a greater sense of connection with the divine.  
 

But the temple now allows women not to place the veil in front of their faces if it creates discomfort without seemingly altering the significance of the endowment.  My guess is God cares more about us being there with him in our prayers in much the same way.  If using the preferred pronouns works for one, then it is best to use them.  If not, he accepts our offerings still.  He prefers us in the temple rather than avoiding it, he prefers us in prayer rather than worrying about them.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is odd since the English ones are the old timey informal. If the leadership hadn’t pressed on it being a formal method of communication it would actually be consistent.

This! It's confusing to be told to use the intimate pronouns in English because prayer should be 'formal'.

[The Nehor]

51 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think it’s quite a stretch to characterize emphasizing the proper language of prayer as “yielding to preferred pronouns,” but I get that you’re looking for a way to advance an ideology. 

The “proper language of prayer” is about pronouns. That is pretty much the only change made when talking about the “proper language of prayer”. It is hard to argue it is a false characterization.

I mean what else is there? Changing “has” to “hast” maybe……what else?

[pogi]

30 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have no idea how a person would be more precise in saying the word 'you'.  In English that's not a thing (you either say "you" or you don't).  In Spanish that's not a thing (you either use the informal "you" or you don't).  Since I don't know Swedish, I can't even say how being precise when saying "you" would work.

What came to my mind is y’all vs you all, or mount’n vs mountain.   More informal slurred or drawled or lazy speech vs more formal precise pronunciation.  But I don’t know if that is the kind of thing he is talking about. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by pogi