Sunday second-hour meetings are to open with a prayer

[bluebell]

Just now, The Nehor said:

I’ve read too much Old English stuff to see it as a gesture of respect and deference.

So much bad love poetry.

You read it correctly.  From what I understand, it was never meant to be a gesture of respect and deference.  For some reason we've turned it into that, and I don't get it.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You read it correctly.  From what I understand, it was never meant to be a gesture of respect and deference.  For some reason we've turned it into that, and I don't get it.

Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day? (Formally)

[JAHS]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I just wonder what makes them the "proper" pronouns?  Tradition?

Could be, but a Tradition that comes from the King James Bible which uses those pronouns extensively. Unless of course you are reading a German Bible or speaking German, then it is the familiar pronouns. 🧐

[Scott Lloyd]

18 minutes ago, rchorse said:

This is one thing that I wish would change. It just makes prayer feel stiff and awkward rather than speaking with a Father. In every other language I am aware of, members use the familiar form of address (tu in spanish, du in german, for example), which is what one normally uses when speaking to friends and family. I know thee, thou, etc. are technically the familiar forms in English, as well. But they're so archaic that I'm not sure it's really accomplishing the goals.

Hmm. It has never struck me as sounding stiff or awkward. I suppose it’s because I grew up with the teaching that this is the way one is to  talk to Deity. Furthermore, I’m well enough acquainted with scriptural phrasing (from which the language of prayer stems) that it is second-nature to me to use those pronouns, verb tenses, etc., that pertain to such phrasing. 
 

On the other hand, what DOES sound awkward to me is when the speaker neglects to use the language of prayer. Not to the point that it bothers me, though. I have always had the assumption in the back of my mind that the speaker is not meaning to be disobedient or rebellious but merely lacks the skill borne of experience in using the prescribed phrasing when offering public prayers. 

[Scott Lloyd]

37 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was under the impression they changed this habit because it was causing the single brothers and sisters to be left out, but I could be remembering wrong.

Maybe so, but that was never the intent in my case, at least. I was careful to include single folks from time to time in making the assignments. Having been single myself for much longer than is typical for adults in the Church, I was scarcely one to neglect single members. 
 

I don’t recall any directive that this is the way it is to be done or to stop doing it this way. It was simply the way I chose to carry out my duty. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[MrShorty]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I have always had the assumption in the back of my mind that the speaker is not meaning to be disobedient or rebellious but merely lacks the skill borne of experience in using the prescribed phrasing when offering public prayers. 

A tangent -- which do we think is worse. Someone who is uncomfortable with KJV English so they revert to the 21st century English that they know, or someone who is unfamiliar with the KJV English and tries, but uses it wrong? As another one who was born and raised with KJV English as the language of prayer, I, too, am fairly comfortable with thee's and thou's and such, but I cannot decide which I find more distracting (even though I would never presume to judge someone for their failings in this area) -- someone who uses 21st century English, or someone who uses thee where they should have used thou.

At the end of the day, for me personally, this is so much a part of the language of prayer that I am not going to try to change myself. IMO, tradition (insert Tevye here) is the only real reason that we perpetuate this practice, and I kind of wish we would have the wisdom and courage to let it die, so people can pray in the language they are comfortable with. I don't think archaic English words and phrases really show any extra respect. YMMV.

[Scott Lloyd]

38 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yep, God gets upset when you refuse to use the pronouns that He chooses for Himself.

I think He’s disappointed when we intentionally ignore or disobey instruction from prophets and apostles. 

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think He’s disappointed when we intentionally ignore or disobey instruction from prophets and apostles. 

about God’s personal pronoun preference.

I know, that is what I said.

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I have always had the assumption in the back of my mind that the speaker is not meaning to be disobedient or rebellious but merely lacks the skill borne of experience in using the prescribed phrasing when offering public prayers. 

I still wonder though, why could it be "disobedient or rebellious" not to use that language for English speakers, but not for spanish (or german, etc.) speakers?

[JustAnAustralian]

44 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Our ward is not so pro-active. Right before Sacrament meeting starts they walk around and grab whoever is there and ask them to pray. They have even asked members from the podium to pray, assuming they will agree. 😊

Happens here too, though the latter is normally reserved for family members of the person conducting the meeting.

45 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think he's referring to this part of the news release:

"Any baptized Church member may offer an opening or closing prayer. …"

I know of at least one non-member that got asked to (and did) pray in a Sunday School lesson. Though I'm not sure if the person that asked them knew if they weren't a member.

39 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I think it is simply more expected to use the "proper" pronouns and has been done for so many years that it sounds strange when people don't use them. Quite often new members of the Church will not use them and I don't think anyone in the audience really cares that much about it. Maybe it's different in Utah.

 

17 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Hmm. It has never struck me as sounding stiff or awkward. I suppose it’s because I grew up with the teaching that this is the way one is to  talk to Deity. Furthermore, I’m well enough acquainted with scriptural phrasing (from which the language of prayer stems) that it is second-nature to me to use those pronouns, verb tenses, etc., that pertain to such phrasing. 
 

On the other hand, what DOES sound awkward to me is when the speaker neglects to use the language of prayer. Not to the point that it bothers me, though. I have always had the assumption in the back of my mind that the speaker is not meaning to be disobedient or rebellious but merely lacks the skill borne of experience in using the prescribed phrasing when offering public prayers. 

 

I find if jarring when I hear someone use non-thee/thy/thou pronouns in a prayer, but that's because I'm used to hearing thee/thy/thou. I get over it though. As long as the prayer is to the correct person then that should generally be enough for non-set-prayers.

The other thing that is less common, but I think some gentle comments now and then could help with, is when members use "I" instead of "we" during prayers on behalf of a group/congregation. 

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

A tangent -- which do we think is worse. Someone who is uncomfortable with KJV English so they revert to the 21st century English that they know, or someone who is unfamiliar with the KJV English and tries, but uses it wrong?

Like anyone else, I can only answer for myself. But I tend to respect more one who at least makes the attempt than one who I know utterly refuses to try. 

[Scott Lloyd]

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I still wonder though, why could it be "disobedient or rebellious" not to use that language for English speakers, but not for spanish (or german, etc.) speakers?

I’m not as acquainted with the Church in Spanish- or German-speaking countries as I am with the Church in Sweden, but I know that Swedish members also have their forms that they are asked to follow when they pray. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

The other thing that is less common, but I think some gentle comments now and then could help with, is when members use "I" instead of "we" during prayers on behalf of a group/congregation. 

Also when members close their talks "in the name of thy son".  

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Also when members close their talks "in the name of thy son".  

Yeah. I have found that disconcerting since childhood. 

[JAHS]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Also when members close their talks "in the name of thy son".  

Yeah. I have found that disconcerting since childhood. 

I think we can place that under the term of an unintentional brain fart.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I think we can place that under the term of an unintentional brain fart.

Maybe if it happened once in a while. But when it’s over and over again from the same speakers, the compelling conclusion is that they don’t know any better or that they haven’t given the matter much thought. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

40 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe so, but that was never the intent in my case, at least. I was careful to include single folks from time to time in making the assignments.

It may not have been anyone's intent, but it was frequently the functional outcome. In my stake, two-thirds of all adult members are single. Asking 'single folks' to pray 'from time to time' effectively marginalises the clear majority.

[Scott Lloyd]

44 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

At the end of the day, for me personally, this is so much a part of the language of prayer that I am not going to try to change myself. IMO, tradition (insert Tevye here) is the only real reason that we perpetuate this practice, and I kind of wish we would have the wisdom and courage to let it die, so people can pray in the language they are comfortable with. I don't think archaic English words and phrases really show any extra respect. YMMV.

Perhaps you are right. But I cannot so blithely dismiss as mere mortal tradition what has been uniformly taught by prophets and apostles going back to the beginning of the Restoration and what has been so recently re-emphasized in a time when, more so than at any previous period in my memory, startling change has been so rampant in the administration of the Church. 

[Rain]

I think of the use of "thee" and "thou" in prayer like the use "ma'am" and "sir" in the south. In the south you are taught to use them as a sign of respect to your elders, teachers etc, but if you spend any time in the south you realize that at least half the time people are using "ma'am" out of tradition or because they are expected to do so.  There will be some who do use them out of respect. 

So it really doesn't matter to me if someone uses them in a prayer or "you". My personal experience is that when I got over the idea that I had to say "thee" and started using "you" that my prayers became much more meaningful despite using the other terms for more than 50 years.  I lost no respect for God.  I don't intend any disrespect for Elder Oaks and it certainly is not done out of rebellion. My ENTIRE reason for using "you" is that it helps me connect with God better.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Rain

[Hamba Tuhan]

Quoting myself from the pronoun thread:

Quote

Indonesians reserve the first- and second-person pronouns for spouses, their own children (and not even always then), and God. Consequently, most of the times I have heard someone actually say I (aku) and you (kamu/engkau) were prayers at church. As I learnt to pray in Indonesian myself, it felt wonderfully 'transgressive' to have these special words reserved for when I spoke to Heavenly Father!

Having said that, I'm thrilled to listen to literally anyone pray in whatever manner s/he does so. Last week, my housemate had two of his non-member mates around for dinner, and one of them offered the blessing on the food for us. I thanked him for being willing to pray vocally in my home. It means much to me!

Edited December 22, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It may not have been anyone's intent, but it was frequently the functional outcome. In my stake, two-thirds of all adult members are single. Asking 'single folks' to pray 'from time to time' effectively marginalises the clear majority.

I think you’re reading too much into my use of the phrase “from time to time.” Bear in mind that when I served as ward executive secretary (on two occasions) I was myself a never-married adult member of the Church in what some call a “family ward.” If I were marginalizing single adults on those occasions, I would in effect have been marginalizing myself. 

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not as acquainted with the Church in Spanish- or German-speaking countries as I am with Sweden, but I know that Swedish members also have their forms that they are asked to follow when they pray. 

Are the Swedish taught to use the formal or informal pronouns?

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Quoting myself from the pronoun thread:

Having said that, I'm thrilled to listen to literally anyone pray in whatever manner s/he does so. Last week, my housemate had two of his non-member mates around for dinner, and one of them offered the blessing on the food for us. I thanked him for being willing to pray vocally in my home. It means much to me!

Yes, for me sincerity is the only thing that matters when other people pray in groups I am in.  

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Are the Swedish taught to use the formal or informal pronouns?

The informal ones, but they are taught to be careful and precise in how they pronounce them, which is different from how they would typically be pronounced in informal conversation. 

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Perhaps you are right. But I cannot so blithely dismiss as mere mortal tradition what has been uniformly taught by prophets and apostles going back to the beginning of the Restoration and what has been so recently re-emphasized in a time when, more so than at any previous period in my memory, startling change has been so rampant in the administration of the Church. 

I must admit, it is interesting that yielding to preferred pronouns is the thing they are putting their foot down on amidst all of the "rampant" and "startling" changes.  Perhaps we can all learn from this uniform and consistent, and thus important message.