Your ward / stake level of activity for youth?

[Rain]

13 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Youth problem / fallout? Same in your ward?

community

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Faithful, lifelong member here.

Stake had an 8 hour familyhistory event for youth yesterday.

Bishop's fireside tonight.

early morning seminary every week day

Ward conference today.

Wed's night activites every week.

Is there a problem w/ the youth that suggests this much time?

The re-org a while backwhere Bishoprics work w/ the young men directly - I get it.

This just seems like overkill.

Same in your ward?

Many of those things are normal every week things. Firesides happen often.  Ward conference timewise is no different than regular church and replaces that. 

The family history thing is not uncommon though it may have ďifferent topics like read the BoM in a day or go to the temple etc. It wouldn't happen every week, but I've seen something liķe that with all my kids 1 or 2 times a year. The fireside that week likely went along with the family history thing.

So I don't see this as out of the ordinary from the last 20-25 years especially when there are also service projects, unless the family history thing is happening often.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Rain

[ksfisher]

40 minutes ago, Teancum said:

But the church does dominate an active members time.

As an active member of the church I don't feel that the church dominates my time.  I spend more time at work in one day than I spend at church during the week.  I would also think that I spend more time doing work around the house than I spend at church.  Those thing dominate my time.

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

It is a way to control members.

In all the time I've spent in ward and stake leadership I've never been involved in a discussion about how to better control members.  Or even how to control them. 

 

[Kenngo1969]

@Teancum goes to his local ward:

                                                      

[I would have included more, because I'm sure Many More Mindless Morgbots than this attend Teancum's ward, but, Alas!, the Board software limits the number of emoticons that can be used in a single post.]

  

[Boanerges]

Funny (as in interesting) this should come up right now. I was just chatting with a ministering brother who was complaining that he feels like his teen children (all girls) are overwhelmed with so much to do in addition to routine daily stuff like homework. I think the OP summed it pretty well. We even had the family history event a few months back. Our ward conference is coming up and has been pointed out it does not directly affect youth - but it will indirectly. The stake president has asked that the Saturday before we have a ward service project, which would of course affect youth, and has asked that stake council members be invited to participate. And a topic on the ward council meeting agenda the morning of ward conference is "How are you helping youth participate in missionary work, family history, and ministering?" That's actually what my friend was complaining about - "as if they don't have enough to do." He even said his daughters are in therapy because they feel so overwhelmed.

My personal view is that yes, the church is attempting to fill every minute of the youths' time in a effort to hold on to them. I don't believe that is a wise choice, and it seems more likely to drive kids like my friend's daughters away. 

Just for the record, I have no skin in the game. My children are grown and gone, and I am comfortable enough to simply say "no thank you" to whatever I don't want to do or attend. 

[bluebell]

47 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Thanks for the down vote about the church filling up your time to control you.  I know the truth hurts.  But this is what high demand organizations do. It is not just the church.  But the church does dominate an active members time.  I am sure you have associate with non LDS who when they see the amount of time the church takes they are a bit surprised.  Anyway sorry if that made you mad.

That being an active member of the church takes up a lot of time is a given that I don't think Hamba is pushing back against.  It's the accusation (which you cite as a fact though you couldn't possible answer a CFR to support it) that it's set up to take up so much of our time to "control us" that you likely got the downvote for.

And though I didn't downvote the post, I do think it's a really odd accusation.  Why would the church want to control its members?  What would the church, or the leaders of the church, get out of it?

Some might say tithing, but that's no answer since the tithing doesn't benefit the leaders and it's only benefit to the church is to further spiritual goals.  And the spiritual goals only benefit the church if it actually believes its truth claims about God and its purpose (which would mean that the church's goal isn't actually control at all but to bring members closer to God)

So again, I have to wonder, why would the church want to control its members?

[katherine the great]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

That was my life back in the 70’s. Seminary, Wednesday nights…actually I think we were Thursday, we would have quarterly activities as a stake or region, there were firesides, plus road and talent shows, ward parties, fundraisers, summer camps, etc 

My thoughts exactly! (and don’t forget temple pageant!) We also had Stake girls camp every year for a week at camp Ritchie. It kept me out of trouble but holy cow it must have been hard on the leaders.

[ksfisher]

59 minutes ago, Boanerges said:

My personal view is that yes, the church is attempting to fill every minute of the youths' time

So all of there time on Saturdays and Sundays and weeknights after school?  Really?  The church is trying to fill "every minute" of the youths time with activities during these times?  Really?

Edited September 19, 2022 by ksfisher

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

As an active member of the church I don't feel that the church dominates my time.

Of course you don't.  I didn't feel this was as an active member either.  Just plowed along.

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

 

  I spend more time at work in one day than I spend at church during the week.  I would also think that I spend more time doing work around the house than I spend at church.  Those thing dominate my time.

I did not say it dominates all of the member's time. Sure work takes time. Not sure what callings you had but mine took me for the most part more than one day's worth of work time. And I am not just talking callings.  I am talking primary stuff, youth stuff, etc.  Things expected to do outside of church time like daily scripture study both personally and family, temple attendance, family history etc.

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

In all the time I've spent in ward and stake leadership I've never been involved in a discussion about how to better control members.  Or even how to control them. 

 

So what?  Did I say that anyone had?  But it is still part of the way to control and keep ambers in the pews.  The Church has lots of these. They may not have developed intentionally.  They may have. I don't know but they are there.  And in the midst of it most won't see it.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

@Teancum goes to his local ward:

                                                      

[I would have included more, because I'm sure Many More Mindless Morgbots than this attend Teancum's ward, but, Alas!, the Board software limits the number of emoticons that can be used in a single post.]

  

cute...

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

That being an active member of the church takes up a lot of time is a given that I don't think Hamba is pushing back against.  It's the accusation (which you cite as a fact though you couldn't possible answer a CFR to support it) that it's set up to take up so much of our time to "control us" that you likely got the downvote for.

And though I didn't downvote the post, I do think it's a really odd accusation.  Why would the church want to control its members?  What would the church, or the leaders of the church, get out of it?

Some might say tithing, but that's no answer since the tithing doesn't benefit the leaders and it's only benefit to the church is to further spiritual goals.  And the spiritual goals only benefit the church if it actually believes its truth claims about God and its purpose (which would mean that the church's goal isn't actually control at all but to bring members closer to God)

So again, I have to wonder, why would the church want to control its members?

Feel free to read and review:

Quote

 

Like “mind control,” the word “cult” is loaded with lots of false notions. Many researchers, myself included, prefer the term, “high-demand group,” because it is more descriptive, even if it is more of a mouthful.

A high-demand group, or cult, instills complete trust in its members and demands an inordinate amount of time, energy, and money, using a totalist and inflexible ideology that permeates most or all aspects of the members’ lives. Such groups are known for isolating members either physically or culturally, suppressing serious questions and flexibility in thought, leaving little room for doubts or dissent, and never allowing criticism of leadership. The goal is for ideological purity and unanimity among all members.

The LDS Church fits this definition. These claims are backed up with research and examples within the pages of Recovering Agency.

 

 

https://recoveringagency.com/

Edited September 19, 2022 by Teancum

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

And though I didn't downvote the post, I do think it's a really odd accusation.  Why would the church want to control its members?  What would the church, or the leaders of the church, get out of it?

What does any group or organization get out of controlling its participants?  I am surprised you would be so puzzled about that. Do you not think there are high demand and even cult or cult like organizations that use mind control techniques?  What do any of them get out of it?

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

@Teancum goes to his local ward:

                                                      

[I would have included more, because I'm sure Many More Mindless Morgbots than this attend Teancum's ward, but, Alas!, the Board software limits the number of emoticons that can be used in a single post.]

  

 

11 minutes ago, Teancum said:

cute...

Thanks!  I try!  

(I'm surprised you didn't downvote me!  Feelin' okay, Dude?! )

[Kenngo1969]

14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

...  But it is still part of the way to control and keep ambers in the pews.  [sic]

Auto Correct strikes again?  

[ksfisher]

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I did not say it dominates all of the member's time.

You didn't, but you said it dominates members time.  How much time during a week does dominating take?  My full time job dominates my time.  Church doesn't even come close to how much time I spend at work. 

 

19 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Things expected to do outside of church time like daily scripture study both personally and family, temple attendance, family history etc.

These things are voluntary.  They're things that we do because we want to.  I've never been told how much time I need to spend on scripture study or family history.  I've heard it suggested that we attend the temple once a month, but no one is checking to see if I did or not.

 

8 minutes ago, Teancum said:

What does any group or organization get out of controlling its participants?  I am surprised you would be so puzzled about that. Do you not think there are high demand and even cult or cult like organizations that use mind control techniques?  What do any of them get out of it?

Bluebell asked, but I notice you didn't answer.  You assert that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wants to control it's members.  If so, what do those seeking to exert this alleged control get out of it?  How do they benefit from this control?

[Teancum]

13 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

Thanks!  I try!  

(I'm surprised you didn't downvote me!  Feelin' okay, Dude?! )

Just trying to roll with ya man!  But I did get COVID last week for the first time so it may be brain fog.😁

[Teancum]

12 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Auto Correct strikes again?  

Argh!🙃

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Feel free to read and review:

 

https://recoveringagency.com/

By that definition, Jesus Christ was a cult leader.  Seems totally legit.  

 

[BlueDreams]

16 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Youth problem / fallout? Same in your ward?

community

Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/lds.

Moderators remove posts from feeds for a variety of reasons, including keeping communities safe, civil, and true to their purpose.

Faithful, lifelong member here.

Stake had an 8 hour familyhistory event for youth yesterday.

Bishop's fireside tonight.

early morning seminary every week day

Ward conference today.

Wed's night activites every week.

Is there a problem w/ the youth that suggests this much time?

The re-org a while backwhere Bishoprics work w/ the young men directly - I get it.

This just seems like overkill.

Same in your ward?

It may just be a random moment where several special events converged at once. That would happen a lot when I was a YSA...usually early fall since people were new and they were trying to re-situate callings, leadership, etc. 

In bold are the activities that aren't really common. I don't remember a ton of firesides....usually a couple a year that took about 1-2 hrs. They'd have bigger youth events 1-2 times a years that may happen over a weekend (youth conference, for example). Ward conference barely differs in structure to church and supplants church. The others are common and haven't shifted in decades. The bishop rearrangement has...but in structure it hasn't necessarily shifted what the youth experience directly (beyond bishoprics being a little more involved with YM's and indirectly YW's activities at times. I don't think I've ever had a week where I was doing church stuff as a youth for more than 10 hrs. Usually less. And as an adult even less than that. There were a few exceptions. Which were usually funner/bigger church activities. All of which were optional (camp, youth conferences, etc)

I'm currently a YW's leader. The biggest changes I've seen compared to my youth is actually none of these and moreso the emphasis on having the youth take a more proactive role in planning what we do and/or doing lessons for YW/YM's. It doesn't equal a massive increase in time. In our YW's what this looks like is a youth led class once a month, a yw's activity every 3 months about what what activities that want to do, and smaller check-ins that last 15 minutes to see what's needed for the activity that week. They usually come, hang out, have some fun/socialize with their friends, and go about their day. Some weeks we have a lot of girls; some weeks we have just a few. We usually have a solid turnout for sundays for yw's/class, though. I'm very pleased with my YW's group. We get along, aren't super judgy, and there doesn't seem to be a girl who's the "outcast."   

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Thanks for the down vote about the church filling up your time to control you.  I know the truth hurts.  But this is what high demand organizations do. It is not just the church.  But the church does dominate an active members time.  I am sure you have associate with non LDS who when they see the amount of time the church takes they are a bit surprised.  Anyway sorry if that made you mad.

The biggest problem with what you said is that it's not "truth" but subjective and assumes the worst potential intentions for what you describe as "high demand organizations." High demand orgs are not uniformly defined by any source. Many sources that use this term have obviously just swapped it for "cult" to sound better and are very biased in their use of said term. Sources that are less biased (say therapy groups) differ in definition, though they do hold similar themes. Some of these we do fit. Some of these we definitely don't. Many are dependent on a specific family or more rigid community within the church in order to apply. For example while googling one mentioned how he left mormonism and used the example that instead of regular vacations to say disney, they went to church sites as an example of an HDG characteristic. Is that extremely rigid? Sure. Is that a proscribed church experience/practice? Absolutely not. Plenty of us go to disney, mountains, beaches, europe, road trips, etc (depending our budget/interests).  

Personally as a YW's leader, my goal with our other YW's leaders for the activities we have is to have a place to socialize and build positive connections for the girls. At church it's for them to learn about God and share their own experiences of faith. We work to make sure everyone is included and welcomed in our group. We encourage our girls in their pursuits. We try to teach the girls things that we also personally value/helped us and with honesty. We try to help our girls who may be struggling. For example one of our was showing strong signs of bipolar disorder. We tried talking to the parents and the bishop also tried to encourage/support them with getting help. When her calling became too much, she was promptly released without an ounce of shame and encouragement to keep getting better. We just want our girls to grow up well, to support them, and to have faith in God. That's our intent. Our girls have plenty of time to study, date, have side jobs, have other friends etc. As a youth, young adult, and adult, I had plenty of time to do the same...and did/do so based on what I wanted to and/or could. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited September 19, 2022 by BlueDreams

[Teancum]

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

You didn't, but you said it dominates members time.  How much time during a week does dominating take?  My full time job dominates my time.  Church doesn't even come close to how much time I spend at work. 

I think I responded to that. I did not say it dominates ALL of your time or even the MAJORITY.  But any active LDS family knows that the church takes a whole lot of your time.  Generally it comes from your discretionary time bucket.

 

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

 

These things are voluntary.  They're things that we do because we want to.

I did n't say someone was putting a gun to your head.  Sure they are voluntary but there is a lot in what is taught and the culture the puts pressure on to comply.  Look I don't care of you agree with me. I don't care if you believe it.   It is a fact that high demand groups will dominate spare time.  The Church does that.  That is one of the attributes of high demand organizations. 

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

 

 I've never been told how much time I need to spend on scripture study or family history.  I've heard it suggested that we attend the temple once a month, but no one is checking to see if I did or not.

Yea now you are being nitpicky and silly really.

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

 

Bluebell asked, but I notice you didn't answer.  You assert that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wants to control it's members.  If so, what do those seeking to exert this alleged control get out of it?  How do they benefit from this control?

I provided reference to an entire book on the subject. What benefit does the church get?  It continues to thrive and grow as an organization and may be less likely to lose members.  Certainly tithe and other $$ donations can play into it.   You don't think the church leadership want to to keep its members active, participating, giving time and $$ and raising the next generation to to do the same?  The leadership may or may not be pure in their intents. I do not know their hearts.  But they certainly don't want to lose members and they want them to follow and toe the LDS gospel line. Just review the recent talk by Elder Oaks on loving and following God (meaning obey) takes precedence over the second great command to love your neighbor as you do yourself (Jesus might be surprised at that interpretation).  And for the Church follow God also means follow the LDS prophets and apostles. The two are pretty much synonymous.  

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, Teancum said:

What does any group or organization get out of controlling its participants?  I am surprised you would be so puzzled about that. Do you not think there are high demand and even cult or cult like organizations that use mind control techniques?  What do any of them get out of it?

Almost exclusively, leaders who seek control get power out of controlling participants, and with that power they get access to things that they want (like money, or fame, or sex, or people willing to carry out illicit/illegal activities that they benefit from, etc.)

But the church and its leaders don't get any of that from this alleged control.  So again, why would they seek to have such control?

[Teancum]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

By that definition, Jesus Christ was a cult leader.  Seems totally legit.  

 

Yep,  he met the definition.

[Teancum]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Almost exclusively, leaders who seek control get power out of controlling participants, and with that power they get access to things that they want (like money, or fame, or sex, or people willing to carry out illicit/illegal activities that they benefit from, etc.)

But the church and its leaders don't get any of that from this alleged control.  So again, why would they seek to have such control?

See above. I commented on that to other posters.  And JS certainly got some of the bolded items as did BY and 19th century leadership in Utah.  Do current LDS leaders get that?  I don't know.  They may be a more innocent bunch and are caught up in it all.  But controlling people does not always mean those controlling get or want the things you list so I reject that premise.  Don't you think LDS leaders have power and fame?  They are treated like rock stars among believing members.  In a nicer more clean way of course.😏

[Teancum]

6 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

The biggest problem with what you said is that it's not "truth" but subjective and assumes the worst potential intentions for what you describe as "high demand organizations." High demand orgs are not uniformly defined by any source.

I would not disagree.

 

6 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

 

Many sources that use this term have obviously just swapped it for "cult" to sound better and are very biased in their use of said term.

 

So use cult if you prefer.  I don't think the Church is a cult. My wife thinks it is but she is a pretty black and white thinker. I know other disaffected members who feel the same.  I don't.  I think there are attributes that cults use that are part of the LDS Church experience.  I think it is on the right slope of the bell curve when you graph those attributes.  I think time demands are one of them.  OThers can disagree.

6 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

 

Sources that are less biased (say therapy groups) differ in definition, though they do hold similar themes. Some of these we do fit. Some of these we definitely don't. Many are dependent on a specific family or more rigid community within the church in order to apply. For example while googling one mentioned how he left mormonism and used the example that instead of regular vacations to say disney, they went to church sites as an example of an HDG characteristic. Is that extremely rigid? Sure. Is that a proscribed church experience/practice? Absolutely not. Plenty of us go to disney, mountains, beaches, europe, road trips, etc (depending our budget/interests).  

Have you looked at this book per chance:  https://recoveringagency.com/

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yep,  he met the definition.

Exactly!  Which is why the definition is pretty useless.  

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, katherine the great said:

My thoughts exactly! (and don’t forget temple pageant!) We also had Stake girls camp every year for a week at camp Ritchie. It kept me out of trouble but holy cow it must have been hard on the leaders.

Yes, half kidding, but those were fun!! Now it seems everything has to be connected to something spiritual. Or Jesus, temple and missionary work. The Road Shows I was in were very secular but still we felt a spirit in a certain way as well. 😊