Two "Mormonisms"- Do Either Describe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

[mfbukowski]

I have used the term "Mormonism" specifically to refer to popular conceptions about the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ.

We believe/are taught to believe (these two choices reflect the problem of the "Two Mormonisms") that we are the only "true and living church" on the earth today.

So is it compatible for a church to be BOTH "true and living"?

It is also believed generally that the Truth is eternal and unchanging and consists of creeds and rules and beliefs "written in stone".

So should true believers believe in solid and unchangealble rules and regulations that are not to be questioned?  Where even temple recommend questions set unacceptable boundaries to our freedoms to believe what we want?

But wait!

It also says "true and LIVING church"  !

What could the words "a living church" possibly mean?

It seems that it is taken to mean- and yes- this is also my personal belief, - that we are open to personal revelation continually, and have an open canon, that scriptures are given to us to be interpreted for our own situations, and that we ought to be more concerned with emulating Christ than being scrupulous about following "rules" and feeling restricted and dominated.

So which Mormonism is right?  

Some apparantly believe it is one or the other and cannot be both; I feel that this is the underlying issue on this board that fuels virtually EVERY discussion.

So what is important, the critics may ask, oppressive rule following or loosie goosie, alleged personal revelation that lets you believe anything and everything?

How do we balance the "Two Mormonisms" neither of which reflect what the Church actually teaches?

 

[Jerry Atric]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

What could the words "a living church" possibly mean?

 

Mormons believe we're the only living church because we're the only church that has the priesthood. All other churches are dead, their teachings can not help them live with God again, according to our teachings. 

 

 

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth..."

 

- Doctrine and Covenants, section 1, verse 30

Edited September 8, 2022 by Jerry Atric

[CV75]

41 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I have used the term "Mormonism" specifically to refer to popular conceptions about the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ.

We believe/are taught to believe (these two choices reflect the problem of the "Two Mormonisms") that we are the only "true and living church" on the earth today.

So is it compatible for a church to be BOTH "true and living"?

It is also believed generally that the Truth is eternal and unchanging and consists of creeds and rules and beliefs "written in stone".

So should true believers believe in solid and unchangealble rules and regulations that are not to be questioned?  Where even temple recommend questions set unacceptable boundaries to our freedoms to believe what we want?

But wait!

It also says "true and LIVING church"  !

What could the words "a living church" possibly mean?

It seems that it is taken to mean- and yes- this is also my personal belief, - that we are open to personal revelation continually, and have an open canon, that scriptures are given to us to be interpreted for our own situations, and that we ought to be more concerned with emulating Christ than being scrupulous about following "rules" and feeling restricted and dominated.

So which Mormonism is right?  

Some apparantly believe it is one or the other and cannot be both; I feel that this is the underlying issue on this board that fuels virtually EVERY discussion.

So what is important, the critics may ask, oppressive rule following or loosie goosie, alleged personal revelation that lets you believe anything and everything?

How do we balance the "Two Mormonisms" neither of which reflect what the Church actually teaches?

 

Maybe living church means the key-holders are literally alive in the mortal flesh, and true church means these key-holders are genuinely authorized, or legitimate.

[ksfisher]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It also says "true and LIVING church"  !

What could the words "a living church" possibly mean?

Living to me refers both to the church as a source of continuing revelation and and as an administrator of sacred ordinances.

Living as a source of revelation in that the church is continually growing and changing as we strive to more fully understand the mind and will of the Lord.

Living as an administrator of sacred ordinances that are necessary to seal us to the living Christ and inherit eternal glory through the power of His atonement.

Edited September 9, 2022 by ksfisher

[Nofear]

There were two items that I can't seem to find a quote for. If somebody has them, that'd be awesome if you linked it.

One was about the inherit uncertainty and terror even of a church that believes in continuing revelation and not dogma. It means that a new revelation could come along and "rewrite" much of what has been written. Not exactly a safe position. Dogmas, by definition, can't be overwritten.

The other was a General Conference talk from one of the apostles about the importance of latter-day prophets (or more precisely the presiding high priest) and their authority to speak on whatever God wants them to and that they can say hard things. He then made the comment that qualified things a little using the example if the prophet declared the Book of Mormon untrue the Brethren would probably look at each other some before just accepting it.

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

Mormons believe we're the only living church because we're the only church that has the priesthood. All other churches are dead, their teachings can not help them live with God again, according to our teachings. 

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth..."

- Doctrine and Covenants, section 1, verse 30

But your scriptural quote does not include anything like the statement "All other churches are dead, their teachings can not help them live with God again,...". On what do you base that belief?

[Jerry Atric]

1 minute ago, Vanguard said:

But your scriptural quote does not include anything like the statement "All other churches are dead, their teachings can not help them live with God again,...". On what do you base that belief?

Do you believe a Christian preacher can help someone in his congregation make it back to God? 

[Vanguard]

2 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Do you believe a Christian preacher can help someone in his congregation make it back to God? 

Absolutely. You don't?

[ttribe]

Given the spelling in your thread title, I have to ask, are you a member of this LDS Church - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/learn/about-us?lang=eng ; or are you a member of this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints_(Strangite) ?

[jkwilliams]

10 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Given the spelling in your thread title, I have to ask, are you a member of this LDS Church - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/learn/about-us?lang=eng ; or are you a member of this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints_(Strangite) ?

The proper name is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Don't forget to capitalize "The."

[Jerry Atric]

32 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Absolutely. You don't?

By what authority? Mormonism claims to hold ALL priesthood authority. What authority is a Christian preacher working under?

[Vanguard]

10 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

By what authority? Mormonism claims to hold ALL priesthood authority. What authority is a Christian preacher working under?

Answer my question first and then we'll go from there.

[Jerry Atric]

1 minute ago, Vanguard said:

Answer my question first and then we'll go from there.

I personally believe Christians can make it back to God. But Mormonism doesn't teach that. Lots of talks on that subject. Just a few years ago, I think it was Oaks or maybe Bednar who said good  Christian living can't help someone make it back to God.

[Vanguard]

4 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

I personally believe Christians can make it back to God. But Mormonism doesn't teach that. Lots of talks on that subject. Just a few years ago, I think it was Oaks or maybe Bednar who said good  Christian living can't help someone make it back to God.

Thanks. Could you provide a reference for either talk or some other recent one?

[ksfisher]

24 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Just a few years ago, I think it was Oaks or maybe Bednar who said good  Christian living can't help someone make it back to God.

CFR please.

[Jerry Atric]

16 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Thanks. Could you provide a reference for either talk or some other recent one?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2016-01-0160-teaching-repentance-and-baptizing-converts?lang=eng&alang=eng

 

13:30 to 14:45 he pretty much says we are the only church that can get someone back to God. No one else can do it.

[Jerry Atric]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

CFR please.

I did. 

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2016-01-0160-teaching-repentance-and-baptizing-converts?lang=eng&alang=eng

 

13:30 to 14:45 he pretty much says we are the only church that can get someone back to God. No one else can do it.

There is a difference between saying it isn’t enough (meaning it helps, but is not enough)and saying it isn’t relevant at all (doesn’t contribute/help).  Unless you think Pres Oaks is saying living a faithful, moral life is irrelevant to being able to receive exaltation to dwell with God.  The Church teaches the former (one needs the ordinances to receive exaltation and fully be one with God, but one also needs to live a good, moral life, repenting as necessary).  You appear to be claiming it teaches the latter. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Calm

[CV75]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I have used the term "Mormonism" specifically to refer to popular conceptions about the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ.

We believe/are taught to believe (these two choices reflect the problem of the "Two Mormonisms") that we are the only "true and living church" on the earth today.

So is it compatible for a church to be BOTH "true and living"?

It is also believed generally that the Truth is eternal and unchanging and consists of creeds and rules and beliefs "written in stone".

So should true believers believe in solid and unchangealble rules and regulations that are not to be questioned?  Where even temple recommend questions set unacceptable boundaries to our freedoms to believe what we want?

But wait!

It also says "true and LIVING church"  !

What could the words "a living church" possibly mean?

It seems that it is taken to mean- and yes- this is also my personal belief, - that we are open to personal revelation continually, and have an open canon, that scriptures are given to us to be interpreted for our own situations, and that we ought to be more concerned with emulating Christ than being scrupulous about following "rules" and feeling restricted and dominated.

So which Mormonism is right?  

Some apparantly believe it is one or the other and cannot be both; I feel that this is the underlying issue on this board that fuels virtually EVERY discussion.

So what is important, the critics may ask, oppressive rule following or loosie goosie, alleged personal revelation that lets you believe anything and everything?

How do we balance the "Two Mormonisms" neither of which reflect what the Church actually teaches?

 

I would say don't waste time balancing what the Church doesn't teach, just describe what the Church does teach. The Church is the threshold number of legitimate ["true"] priesthood key-holders as in D&C 20:61, "The several elders [living, breathing men] composing this church of Christ..."

[Jerry Atric]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is a difference between saying it isn’t enough (meaning it helps, but is not enough)and saying it isn’t relevant at all (doesn’t contribute/help at all

Elder Oaks said it, not me. He said GOOD CHRISTIAN LIVING CAN NOT DO IT, meaning, no matter how good of a Christian you are, only the mormon gospel will get you back into God's presence. Mormonism teaches you can be the best Christian that has ever lived, and without being baptized by someone with the proper authority, you're going to end up in prison when you die.

[manol]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What could the words "a living church" possibly mean?

It seems that it is taken to mean- and yes- this is also my personal belief, - that we are open to personal revelation continually, and have an open canon, that scriptures are given to us to be interpreted for our own situations, and that we ought to be more concerned with emulating Christ than being scrupulous about following "rules" and feeling restricted and dominated.

 

"Open to personal revelation continually, to have an open canon, that the scriptures are given to us to be interpreted for our own situations, and that we ought to be more concerned with emulating Christ than being scrupulous about following "rules" and feeling restricted and dominated" sounds to me a lot like what Joseph Smith had in mind:

"One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may."

“We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons.”

“Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth: consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft, fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth... The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same.” 

"Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject."

[Vanguard]

39 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2016-01-0160-teaching-repentance-and-baptizing-converts?lang=eng&alang=eng

 

13:30 to 14:45 he pretty much says we are the only church that can get someone back to God. No one else can do it.

Great clip - thanks. So my position probably runs a bit afoul of even my own member compatriots (are you a believing member?) here. I believe - and I believe no other position is ultimately defensible - that all who will reside with Him in the CK will have received these ordinances that Oaks outlines whether in this life or the next. The good work a Christian pastor can do is virtually indispensable for many of those who do not receive said ordinances in this life but rather do so beyond the veil. In my mind, it's not a matter of which faith will get you in but rather all will need to have the ordinances done by His priesthood. All Christian-minded men and women (and not Christian-minded!) hopefully push us toward this ultimate goal. And by the same token, receiving these needed ordinances in this life is in no way a commentary on whether one will reside with Him. In fact, I believe they pale in comparison to the all-important task of stretching toward one's capacity in this life (whatever that capacity is?). These fellow Christian pastors generally speaking help to pave the way for all who are stretching in this manner. I also believe Oaks would affirm as much.

[manol]

16 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

The good work a Christian pastor can do is virtually indispensable for many of those who do not receive said ordinances in this life but rather do so beyond the veil...  In fact, I believe they pale in comparison to the all-important task of stretching toward one's capacity in this life (whatever that capacity is?). These fellow Christian pastors generally speaking help to pave the way for all who are stretching in this manner.

Agreed.

"Every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ [even if it comes from a non-Mormon "Christian pastor"], is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.”  Moroni 7:16

Edited September 8, 2022 by manol

[mrmarklin]

4 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

Mormons believe we're the only living church because we're the only church that has the priesthood. All other churches are dead, their teachings can not help them live with God again, according to our teachings. 

 

 

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth..."

 

- Doctrine and Covenants, section 1, verse 30

Not only authority, but revelation.  IMHO we are all entitled, but any revelation that goes against the teachings of the current prophet, are not from God.

 

The priesthood allows us to do the saving ordinances.

Edited September 8, 2022 by mrmarklin

[mrmarklin]

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2016-01-0160-teaching-repentance-and-baptizing-converts?lang=eng&alang=eng

 

13:30 to 14:45 he pretty much says we are the only church that can get someone back to God. No one else can do it.

This is true.  But whatever progress we can make in this life helps us on our way in the next.  So the teachings of other churches that correlate with a Christ-like life help.  They can't go all the way without the authority to do saving ordinances.