Pres. Oaks: "Religious Rights Cannot Be Absolute"

[Vanguard]

Come on guys, if you're going to skewer another individual as being some sort of despicable Christian white nationalist you should at least provide references. If I remember correctly Eric Moustos is the guy who requested to be removed from a dual-purpose police parade performance/security detail for an LGBT event a few years ago. We debated/discussed this issue on the forum. Otherwise, I couldn't find much by way of the kind of objectionable material you seem to be asserting.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Vanguard

[jkwilliams]

16 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Come on guys, if you're going to skewer another individual as being some sort of despicable Christian white nationalist you should it least provide references. If I remember correctly Eric Moustos is the guy who requested to be removed from a dual-purpose police parade performance/security detail for an LGBT event a few years ago. We debated/discussed this issue on the forum. Otherwise, I couldn't find much by way of the kind of objectionable material you seem to be asserting.

I was thinking about his FB group (UBR) featuring memes about running over or shooting BLM protesters in particular. Do you really want me to screen shot that garbage?

Edited August 1, 2022 by jkwilliams

[The Nehor]

 

“We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity. Our movement is Christian.” -Adolf Hitler

And yes, I know Hitler’s belief in Christianity was performative and shallow. That is not that comforting when you realize it is the same with these clowns.

Edited August 1, 2022 by The Nehor

[jkwilliams]

Just now, The Nehor said:

And yes, I know Hitler’s belief in Christianity was performative and shallow. It is the same with these clowns.

Nehor wins the Internet today. That's what so many people don't get: it's all performative and shallow. But they have to throw bones to their audience, and that just means even worse reactionary social and political acts.

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Come on guys, if you're going to skewer another individual as being some sort of despicable Christian white nationalist you should at least provide references. If I remember correctly Eric Moustos is the guy who requested to be removed from a dual-purpose police parade performance/security detail for an LGBT event a few years ago. We debated/discussed this issue on the forum. Otherwise, I couldn't find much by way of the kind of objectionable material you seem to be asserting

Granted a cardboard or wooden giant needle being burned isn’t the same thing as burning a person in effigy, it still has a creepy feel to it. Not against bonfires in general, just the burning in effigy bit. 

Doesn’t say anything about him being a Nationalist, of course. There are others who burn stuff and effigies of people they don’t like as a protest.

I do find him pitching buying his health supplements as patriotic rather ugh though. 
 

Is there a parallel word for patriotism like priestcraft is for religion?

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Nehor wins the Internet today. That's what so many people don't get: it's all performative and shallow. But they have to throw bones to their audience, and that just means even worse reactionary social and political acts.

I don’t think they realize that it is performative and shallow. They wouldn’t know what real religious devotion is if it walked up and punched them in the face. Which it should do. Because punching Nazis is cool and good.

[jkwilliams]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think they realize that it is performative and shallow. They wouldn’t know what real religious devotion is if it walked up and punched them in the face. Which it should do. Because punching Nazis is cool and good.

Yep, it's about as convincing as some orange-haired narcissist hugging a flag. 

[Vanguard]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Granted a cardboard or wooden giant needle being burned isn’t the same thing as burning a person in effigy, it still has a creepy feel to it. Not against bonfires in general, just the burning in effigy bit. 

Doesn’t say anything about him being a Nationalist, of course. There are others who burn stuff and effigies of people they don’t like as a protest.

I do find him pitching buying his health supplements as patriotic rather ugh though. 
 

Is there a parallel word for patriotism like priestcraft is for religion?

Who knows? And as you've suggested,  I don't yet see the link to Christian nationalism. 

[pogi]

36 minutes ago, Calm said:

I do find him pitching buying his health supplements as patriotic rather ugh though. 
 

Is there a parallel word for patriotism like priestcraft is for religion?

The cheapening and monetizing of patriotism for personal gain, I believe that is called capitalism 

I'm saying that tongue in cheek, but I honestly think that is the closest word we have.  I know it is more broad than what you are looking for.  I agree there should be a word for that. 

Oh wait, here it is in use - patriotcraft:

 https://www.instagram.com/patriotcraft_outpost/

[Rock_N_Roll]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Feeling a little sheepish. I thought smac was asking for examples of Mormon White Christian fanatics. 

I don't think you'd have to look any further than LDSFF to find examples of Mormon White Christian fanatics. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Chum said:

To clarify the conversation, does your interest in nationalism extend to defending or elevating it?

My interest, at present, is better understanding it.  How it is defined.  

I just started a separate thread: Should Latter-day Saints be Concerned about "Christian Nationalism?"

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

I don't think you'd have to look any further than LDSFF to find examples of Mormon White Christian fanatics. 

That too. I haven't looked in on those folks in a long time. I've always wondered how people who openly oppose church leaders still consider themselves Latter-day Saints. I'm way less opposed to church leaders than they are, and I'm an apostate.

[smac97]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

My active LDS cousin is constantly posting stuff on Facebook about how this is a Christian nation and how nonwhite immigrants are destroying our culture and heritage.

Is she specifically referencing nonwhite immigrants? 

Is she conflating legal immigrants with illegal aliens (that is, those who illegally enter and those who legally enter and they overstay their visas)?

I have a hard time wrapping my head around race-based hostility of this sort, but I also have some concern about opposition to (or concerns about) illegal immigration being reflexively characterized as being borne of racism.

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

She likes to quote Eric Moutsos a lot. I'm not going to give references because it's very ugly stuff. I'm assuming you can Google Mr. Moutsos and his ilk.

Well, I found his blog.  He said this:

Quote

I believe Martin Luther King Jr. would have loved the idea that ALL LIVES MATTER more than the idea of very divisive slogans that promote one race of people over another. Or that another race should feel “sorrow” for what America was like years ago. He just wanted to make it actually equal. And he came as close as it could be with the movement he created.

I believe Martin Luther King Jr. would have applauded the day (which we live) where millions of Americans watch and borderline worship black athletes and celebrities across the nation. What else could be the pinnacle of achievement and equality then by electing a black President of the United States, not once, but twice?
...
In fact, he said it best when he explained we should “not judge someone by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character”. I believe what he meant, is not talking about one race over another.

He is speaking admirably about Dr. King and advancements in racial harmoney.

And here:

Quote

I remember pulling a man over for speeding and he happened to be black. He immediately started in on his color and the “reason” why he was pulled over. I showed the laser gun with his speed. It didn’t matter. I was “racist” in his eyes. He kept going off on why he believes I’m racist. Yelling, screaming, mad.

I finally said to him, “You know, we usually see people not as they are, but as we are.” He was stuck in thought. Very agitated he said, “What’s that supposed to mean?” I said it again. “We usually see people not as they are, but as we are.” I went on, “Usually people who go around calling people racists are in fact the ones who are racist!”

As soon as I said it, I wanted to bring back the words, and couldn’t believe it came out of my mouth. It was before body cameras, and I thought he would for sure make a complaint. In my 7 year career I never went to Internal Affairs because I never got into trouble; but this time as the words came out I thought I would be making my way into the office. I just called a black man racist at a traffic stop.

Instead of him asking for a supervisor, the man looked at me with so much anger in his face and said, “You’re damn right I’m racist!, I hate the white man!”….. I stopped …“Exactly!” I blurted out.. “That’s exactly what I thought!”

I wanted to cite him for the full amount over the speed limit so badly, because of what a jerk this man was, no, not because he was black, but because he was being a horrible person (along with speeding) but I didn’t. I gave him his license back and said something like, “Most of us got into this job to help people. I’m sorry you feel that way toward a person of a different color.”
...
America is not racist. America is the most diverse country in the world. We won the civil rights movement 50+ years ago. We worship talented black celebrities and athletes all day long. One of the richest people in the entire world is a black woman named Oprah Winfrey. A billionaire. How did she do it in such a racist country? We just elected the first black president of the US, not once, but twice. How did that happen if we are such a racist country? It did because we aren’t.
...
Racism is darkness and hate; so we should just label it for what it is. Darkness and hate.

"Racism is darkness and hate."

And here:

Quote

One of the biggest lies that’s being told in America today is that “racism” still exists like it used to in the 60’s. It doesn’t. At least not like they want us to believe. Sure there are some “racists” who hate, but it’s just because they hate everyone, including their own race.
...
Here’s an idea…. stop talking about race. Stop talking about skin color, gender, sexual orientation, and on and on and on… Treat each other like we want to be treated. We are ONE race. The human race. That’s how you fix it. Just stop and live the golden rule. There is no other way to unite.

And here:

Quote

I shook my head. “I’m very aware of what happened in the sixties and earlier in our country’s history. I don’t condone the mistreatment of anyone.Racism disgusts me. But if we aren’t careful, we can repeat the sixties, but in reverse. Why should anyone be discriminated against because of their skin, white or black, or anything in between?”

Pretty clear he is decrying, not advocating for, racism here.

I don't know the guy, and I've never read his blog before.  But what I have seen is rather hard to square with your implication that he is expressing racist sentiments.

To be sure, his Facebook content is heavily politically partisan, but I'm not seeing anything that could be reasonably construed as advocating racism.

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Feel free to disregard my post as not meeting an informal CFR, but I refuse to repeat racist crap.

Okay.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Is she specifically referencing nonwhite immigrants? 

Is she conflating legal immigrants with illegal aliens (that is, those who illegally enter and those who legally enter and they overstay their visas)?

I have a hard time wrapping my head around race-based hostility of this sort, but I also have some concern about opposition to (or concerns about) illegal immigration being reflexively characterized as being borne of racism.

Well, I found his blog.  He said this:

He is speaking admirably about Dr. King and advancements in racial harmoney.

And here:

"Racism is darkness and hate."

And here:

And here:

Pretty clear he is decrying, not advocating for, racism here.

I don't know the guy, and I've never read his blog before.  But what I have seen is rather hard to square with your implication that he is expressing racist sentiments.

To be sure, his Facebook content is heavily politically partisan, but I'm not seeing anything that could be reasonably construed as advocating racism.

Okay.

Thanks,

-Smac

My cousin is on record as saying that we should not allow any immigrants from Mexico, legal or not. 

As for Moutsos, to be fair, his posts didn’t mention the race of the BLM protesters he thought should be killed.  So, kinda not racist, right?

Edited August 1, 2022 by jkwilliams

[Chum]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Could you provide some references?  I'd like to read their remarks.

Pres Nelson's remarks - which while softer than Pres Ballard's, also tie nationalism and prejudice together.

Quote

Ageism, racism, nationalism, sexism and a host of other ‘isms’ are universally limiting.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My cousin is on record as saying that we should allow any immigrants from Mexico, legal or not

Should or should not?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Calm said:

Should or should not?

Should not. Typed too fast. 

[Chum]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

My interest, at present, is better understanding it.  How it is defined.  

I just started a separate thread: Should Latter-day Saints be Concerned about "Christian Nationalism?"

Does it come with the Wall Of Text? Because honestly, I'm going to die one day and I don't want my EOL flashes to be dominated with scenes of me slogging thru 3000 line posts.

edit: I'm not going to continually rail against this. Just saying that I work best when a point that can be made in 2 paragraphs fits on one screen. If it requires several stacked, page-mode monitors to fully display, I'm probably going to pass over it.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Chum

[jkwilliams]

Another example from a different relative of mine.  She says that people shouldn’t be allowed to immigrate to the US because it “dilutes” our culture and values. I asked what she meant, and she specifically mentioned Middle Easterners, who bring Muslim religion and culture, and Central Americans, who bring gang violence. What about Europeans or Canadians? I asked. “Oh, they already share our culture and values, for the most part.”

Edited August 1, 2022 by jkwilliams

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, Chum said:

Does it come with the Wall Of Text? Because honestly, I'm going do die one day and I don't want my EOL flashes to be dominated with scenes of me slogging thru 3000 line posts.

Or the ones that contain 50+ quotes from my past posts that supposedly demonstrate my hypocrisy. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I have a hard time wrapping my head around race-based hostility of this sort,

Learn to wrap your head around it. Quickly. It is important.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

My cousin is on record as saying that we should not allow any immigrants from Mexico, legal or not. 

As for Moutsos, to be fair, his posts didn’t mention the race of the BLM protesters he thought should be killed.  So, kinda not racist, right?

I seem to recall someone that favored an all out immigration Muslim ban and complained about all the immigrants from s***hole countries. That individual was all for Norway immigration as I recall. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[provoman]

On 8/1/2022 at 1:02 PM, The Nehor said:

I don’t think they realize that it is performative and shallow. They wouldn’t know what real religious devotion is if it walked up and punched them in the face. Which it should do. Because punching Nazis is cool and good.

Performative and shallow is the what all the cool kids do, like dressing up in all black and assaulting people because the person dared to express their opinion.
 

As for the topic, Humanity should be concerned about any religious group wanting to impose its religious views on the others.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, provoman said:

Performative and shallow is the what all the cool kids do, like dressing up in all black and assaulting people because the person dared to express their opinion.

Then we have those who dress up in Jesus garb, captain Moroni costumes, and American flags and assault police officers because they dared to defend our Capitol and democracy.  "Very special" people indeed! 

1 hour ago, provoman said:

As for the topic, Humanity should be concerned about any religious group wanting to impose its religious views on the others.

 Agreed.  We should avoid any form of nationalism and vote against those who support it.  They are a danger to our nation.  I think that should be undeniable to everyone by now. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by pogi

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Then we have those who dress up in Jesus garb, captain Moroni costumes, and American flags and assault police officers because they dared to defend our Capitol and democracy.  "Very special" people indeed! 

 Agreed.  We should avoid any form of nationalism and vote against those who support it.  They are a danger to our nation.  I think that should be undeniable to everyone by now. 

With weapons attached to the tops of the American Flag aimed and thrown at the capitol and police officers. They call themselves patriots, they sure poisoned that word alright. 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Tacenda