Don’t cross this line

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Just making it a rule to get the the highest heaven is dumb.

Heaven isn't about what you drink or don't drink.  Or what you smoke or vape or don't or whatever.  Heaven is abut being willing to follow the Savior.  Part of that if being obedient to His commandments, which are given through His prophets.  If you can do that the rest follows.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

It is not arbitrary.

Yes it is.  The WoW was not a requirement for the temple and thus the celestial kingdom till HJG. And any demand to not partake of some substance in order to get to the highest heaven is totally arbitrary.  And the Jesus of the NT spoke against such things.

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

 

I literally just posted why some things are considered hard limits on what you can do because they are easy to objectively verify for any idiot doing a self-evaluation. It is the difference between “Did you eat a piece of cake” and “did you eat healthy today”.

But why should what you eat or consume have any impact on getting to the highest heaven?  I drink tea. I enjoy tea. It is good for me.  But according to Mormonism that will keep me out of the highest heaven.  Eating cake, drinking tea or coffee, eating a prime rib, being fat or skinny, non of it should matter for eternal blessings.  Objectively verifiable is not relevant.  It is the whole idea that these things are important to some God for our future in the eternities being relevant that is nonsensical.

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Chest-thumping over the Word of Wisdom? Why do you hang out with idiots who do that?

To let me know my decision to reject such foolishness is a wonderful thing, You should consider it. Based on so many of your posts I think you are close.  

[Teancum]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

Heaven isn't about what you drink or don't drink.  Or what you smoke or vape or don't or whatever.  Heaven is abut being willing to follow the Savior.  Part of that if being obedient to His commandments, which are given through His prophets.  If you can do that the rest follows.

Yes and that is a great indicator of the control issue. Don't drink tea or coffee or you lose out.  But, but, but...it is not about the tea or coffee, it is about obedience. And thus the high demand control religion is revealed. 

[The Nehor]

30 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yes it is.  The WoW was not a requirement for the temple and thus the celestial kingdom till HJG. And any demand to not partake of some substance in order to get to the highest heaven is totally arbitrary.  And the Jesus of the NT spoke against such things.

Jesus followed the Law of Moses which was pretty much the definition of arbitrary. I also don’t subscribe to the idea that the temple requirements are the same as exaltation requirements.

32 minutes ago, Teancum said:

But why should what you eat or consume have any impact on getting to the highest heaven?  I drink tea. I enjoy tea. It is good for me.  But according to Mormonism that will keep me out of the highest heaven.  Eating cake, drinking tea or coffee, eating a prime rib, being fat or skinny, non of it should matter for eternal blessings.  Objectively verifiable is not relevant.  It is the whole idea that these things are important to some God for our future in the eternities being relevant that is nonsensical.

Why should who we have sex with have an impact? Why should helping the impoverished? I don’t know. God often seems to have a warped sense of priorities. I am not going to get upset about God setting some temporary taboos on what we ingest. There are much better things to be annoyed at God about.

36 minutes ago, Teancum said:

To let me know my decision to reject such foolishness is a wonderful thing, You should consider it. Based on so many of your posts I think you are close.  

You hang out with idiots to feel superior to them? Odd choice.

Close to what? To being annoyed over the Word of Wisdom and walking out on the Church? Nah, if I go down I am going down over something much more fun and interesting.

[The Nehor]

38 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yes and that is a great indicator of the control issue. Don't drink tea or coffee or you lose out.  But, but, but...it is not about the tea or coffee, it is about obedience. And thus the high demand control religion is revealed. 

To what nefarious goal is this maniacal plot to gain control over alcohol consumption aimed at? Sticking it to breweries?

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

He understands this. He is working toward going to the temple. He is just confused by the inconsistency of the lines he cannot cross to be worthy of the temple

A lot of Jewish kosher rules also seem inconsistent.  One might best see the Word of Wisdom as a kind of Nazirite vow for Latter-day Saints.  A kind of test, if you will, of your resolve to be obedient to a set of strict standards.

[Teancum]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Jesus followed the Law of Moses which was pretty much the definition of arbitrary. I also don’t subscribe to the idea that the temple requirements are the same as exaltation requirements.

Why should who we have sex with have an impact? Why should helping the impoverished? I don’t know. God often seems to have a warped sense of priorities. I am not going to get upset about God setting some temporary taboos on what we ingest. There are much better things to be annoyed at God about.

You hang out with idiots to feel superior to them? Odd choice.

Close to what? To being annoyed over the Word of Wisdom and walking out on the Church? Nah, if I go down I am going down over something much more fun and interesting.

Well al lreligous laws are really man made. God is created by humans in human's image and since so many humans have different views of things we have a lot of gods that impose a lot of arbitrary rules on us. 

[Teancum]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

To what nefarious goal is this maniacal plot to gain control over alcohol consumption aimed at? Sticking it to breweries?

Huh?

[Pyreaux]

Are Bishop's requirements for getting a Temple recommend the same as those who want to get into heaven? Nah, he's a Judge in Israel, sure, but those who die and are judged according to men in the flesh might be alive in the spirit. Are Spirit missionaries going to even mention Joseph Smith when you find yourself floating in a prison in the Spirit World? Not even excommunication is a final judgement. Its not a good sign, but its just part of the repentance process, and that process isn't over until its truly over.

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Well al lreligous laws are really man made. God is created by humans in human's image and since so many humans have different views of things we have a lot of gods that impose a lot of arbitrary rules on us. 

That must be very comforting to believe. I know God exists. I don’t always find that comforting but denying it won’t make God go away.

[Teancum]

23 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A lot of Jewish kosher rules also seem inconsistent.  One might best see the Word of Wisdom as a kind of Nazirite vow for Latter-day Saints.  A kind of test, if you will, of your resolve to be obedient to a set of strict standards.

And why does some god require a whole lot of arbitrary standards to be obedient to, that by the way differ substantially amongst varying religious traditions.  More likely it us humans setting up these arbitrary vows/requirements for other humans to follow.

[Teancum]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That must be very comforting to believe. I know God exists. I don’t always find that comforting but denying it won’t make God go away.

Nah you don't know god exists. You just have really strong faith and beliefs that some god that meets your dogma exists.  Kike billions of others who believe if a different god that you think you know exists.

[Pyreaux]

Or the rules are relative and its all the same God.

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Yes and that is a great indicator of the control issue. Don't drink tea or coffee or you lose out.  But, but, but...it is not about the tea or coffee, it is about obedience. And thus the high demand control religion is revealed. 

When my children were young we didn't allow them to stay up late, watch violent or scary TV, eat unlimited deserts, do your homework before play, help with chores around the house, etc.  Sometimes they didn't understand why things had to be a certain way, but we asked them to do it that way regardless.  We were just trying to do what we thought was best and help them to grow up to be good people.

The Savior asks us to willingly submit our will to the will of the Father.  Perhaps I don't understand all the reasons why right now, but I trust that someday I will.

[Teancum]

Just now, ksfisher said:

When my children were young we didn't allow them to stay up late, watch violent or scary TV, eat unlimited deserts, do your homework before play, help with chores around the house, etc.  Sometimes they didn't understand why things had to be a certain way, but we asked them to do it that way regardless.  We were just trying to do what we thought was best and help them to grow up to be good people.

The Savior asks us to willingly submit our will to the will of the Father.  Perhaps I don't understand all the reasons why right now, but I trust that someday I will.

Well yes. The LDS Church treats its members like children.  If you are ok as a mature adult with being treated like a child more power to you.  And it is not the Savior asking you to submit to arbitrary silly rules.  It is the men leading the church.

[The Nehor]

30 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Nah you don't know god exists. You just have really strong faith and beliefs that some god that meets your dogma exists.  Kike billions of others who believe if a different god that you think you know exists.

Wrong. Wrong. Not sure why you are going with anti-Semitism.

[ksfisher]

23 minutes ago, Teancum said:

it is not the Savior asking you to submit to arbitrary silly rules.  It is the men leading the church.

I don't believe the Savior or the leaders of the church expect us to submit to arbitrary or silly rules.  I believe that we are asked to be obedient to the Saviors commands in preparation for a place in our Father's kingdom.  The scriptures as well as prophets and apostles in this dispensation have testified of this.

Nevertheless, we each are free to believe and act as we see fit, as our Father has given us agency to do so.

[Robert F. Smith]

32 minutes ago, Teancum said:

And why does some god require a whole lot of arbitrary standards to be obedient to, that by the way differ substantially amongst varying religious traditions.  More likely it us humans setting up these arbitrary vows/requirements for other humans to follow.

It can seem that way, and some have accused of humans of creating God in their own image.  In some cases, such rules codify primitive, natural knowledge, such as that one can avoid death (trichinosis) by avoiding pork.  In other cases, use of booze has been very destructive for humans, and taking the temperance pledge or going to AA has been very helpful.  One can make a long list of what is bad for us, from smoking to eating too much (obesity epidemic).

One Jewish commentator, Ben Shapiro, was even recommending very recently that Christians should go back to church.  Why?  Because he can clearly see the fast decline of Western civilization, and he knows full well that the moral and ethical lessons taught in Christianity are very good for people.  As a practical matter.  Why are some so desirous of jettisoning all ancient wisdom, come hell or high water?

[filovirus]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yes and that is a great indicator of the control issue. Don't drink tea or coffee or you lose out.  But, but, but...it is not about the tea or coffee, it is about obedience. And thus the high demand control religion is revealed. 

I can understand this line of reasoning and how religion is perceived by some people. 

[rpn]

I tend to see the Word of Wisdom less about the details and more about opting in to being in Their tribe.   More like the killing the firstborn lamb and putting its blood over the door so the Angel of Death would passover your house (to mark you as Theirs).    And to a lesser extent, I think it could be about agency.   Most of the substances involve wasting money and time and getting to the point where the substance use rules the lives of those who use it, leaving less time, money, and even desire to do the things that help us become like Them (or at least bless the lives of Their children).

Edited May 15, 2022 by rpn

[webbles]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

The WoW was not a requirement for the temple and thus the celestial kingdom till HJG. And any demand to not partake of some substance in order to get to the highest heaven is totally arbitrary.

When did temple requirements become celestial kingdom requirements? I'm pretty sure I've done temple work for plenty of people that would never have passed the temple interview.

[2BizE]

I think the WoW started out as a health practice based on practices of the day (ie. John Kellog), but today has little to do with health and more to do with obedience and control.

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So why was it only given in this dispensation?

There were dietary restrictions in previous dispensations. Perhaps this in our dispensation because the Lord knew how ubiquitous the iniquitous substances would become. 

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

I think the WoW started out as a health practice based on practices of the day (ie. John Kellog), but today has little to do with health and more to do with obedience and control.

Obedience, yes, control, no.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

The point is it is only arbitrary and about control.  If the Church really cred about health then they would focus on other things. Latter day Saints love to thump their chest about avoiding coffee, alcohol, tea and tobacco and drugs but still have many unhealthy food practices.

I know many members who are very careful about what they eat.