From DesNews: A gay Latter-day Saint stands up for faith and family

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, california boy said:

I had this very discussion with my wife after coming out.  I asked her if she knew I was gay.  I mean sometimes guys would be flirting with me when I was right next to her.  She told me that she never saw guys flirting with me, she only saw women.  I am like What?? I never saw that.   I guess you see what you want to see.

How are your acting skills? 😉

[california boy]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

How are your acting skills? 😉

Well since I knew I was gay when I was 12, I would say I have had a half of life time pretending to be someone I was't.   I guess I got pretty good at it unfortunately.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

I apologize to Mark, then. My interpretation of his use of folksy language was far less charitable.

Thanks, accepted.  Your response was expected- I figured it would go that way, but I was really trying to figure this out.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I appreciate you trying to understand the process that I think most gay people go through. I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but I can tell you my own journey.  I guess for me, I put way too much trust into Church leaders.  I thought they had some special relationship with God that could help guide me in doing what is right.  But that turned out not to be true.  What they promised and told me was not true at all.  So I started relying more on God rather than men.  There was one scripture that really became my mantra.

Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not.
Doctrine & Covenants 6:36

I began to let God guide me.  He opened up my mind to what really my path should be.  And I began to trust Him.  The more I trusted God, the more clear that path opened up for me.  It is why people can throw as many quotes from general authorities they want at me.  Doesn't really matter to me what they think is sin or not.  I know so surely that God wants me right where I am, doing exactly what I am doing.  It doesn't mean I am perfect, but it does mean I am drawing closer to Him.

Ok, thanks, I get it now.  I am used to getting the kind of s.....tuff that others have pulled out for me when I ask about it.  Same folks, same level of comments.

I am informed I am judging others when in fact THEY are judging me to be a hillbilly.   Par for the course.   

We all need to follow the path God leads us on, and we are all at different points in the path and what works for one may not work for everyone- or ANYone.

If you say that God leads you, there is no debate or response or judging or condemnation possible.

I certainly am not / cannot debate it!    Hang in there dude, "what a long strange trip it's been!"

Edited April 26, 2022 by mfbukowski

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Thanks, accepted.  Your response was expected- I figured it would go that way, but I was really trying to figure this out.

For my part, I was (and still am) genuinely trying to understand your point about “acting” husbands and “stupid” wives. I don’t know how that relates to how difficult it is for mixed-orientation marriages, particularly when the other spouse is unaware at the time of marriage. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by jkwilliams

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

For my part, I was (and still am) genuinely trying to understand your point about “acting” husbands and “stupid” wives. I don’t know how that relates to how difficult it is for mixed-orientation marriages, particularly when the other spouse is unaware at the time of marriage. 

Right.

You don't.  Subtitute "naive".   No mas, por favor.  Bye again!

 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Right.

You don't.  Subtitute "naive".   No mas, por favor.  Bye again!

Why is it so difficult to have a conversation with you? I could do without the constant questioning of my motives and sincerity. I really don’t understand why it has to be this way, but maybe you’re right and we should just go back to quiet avoidance. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by jkwilliams

[ttribe]

12 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Why is it so difficult to have a conversation with you? I could do without the constant questioning of my motives and sincerity. I really don’t understand why it has to be this way, but maybe you’re right and we should just go back to quiet avoidance. 

 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, ttribe said:

 

One of my many failings is a strong need to be liked. I’m getting better, but it still gets to me. 

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

One of my many failings is a strong need to be liked. I’m getting better, but it still gets to me. 

At least he doesn't "have the death sentence on twelve systems!"

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

That may be a bit harsh, but I’ve known closeted men who have maintained a marriage for years without their wives knowing. One of my mission companions was probably the most devoutly believing church member I have ever met, and he was gay. He was counseled to marry, and it wasn’t until at least 5 years of marriage that his wife figured out he was on Grindr and meeting guys at truck stops. I don’t think he was a particularly great actor. 

 

People believe what they want to believe.




And yes, that is probably not real. The response…..that I think is real.

Edited April 26, 2022 by The Nehor

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

At least he doesn't "have the death sentence on twelve systems!"

True! 

[jkwilliams]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

 

People believe what they want to believe.




And yes, that is probably not real. The response…..that I think is real.

I’ve seen that before. Never underestimate the human capacity to believe what we want to believe. 

[Teancum]

On 4/25/2022 at 5:48 PM, mfbukowski said:

You actually think they see it that way at the time?

"Well sweetheart, I don't really see you sexually attractive, but I will marry you out of religious obligation!  Lucky YOU! "

"Oh yes yes my darling that is all we need in our lives- religious obligation! Let's celebrate!"

Somehow I think it must be a little more complex.....

ACtually I would bet a lot of those who enter into such relationships have the two items above as a major part of the decision.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Why is it so difficult to have a conversation with you? I could do without the constant questioning of my motives and sincerity. I really don’t understand why it has to be this way, but maybe you’re right and we should just go back to quiet avoidance. 

It's a waste of time.   We will never understand each other and we will keep on doing what we are doing right now- back and forth and no communication forever.

Death by a million paper cuts.  I will never get back the time it took to write this and even my doing so was foolish.   No more please, or do what you will, I will not respond further.  But I am sure you will, for ever more.

Now respond so that I can point out that I predicted it.  - sarcasm- please don't.

Edited April 26, 2022 by mfbukowski

[california boy]

I thought this was relevant to the discussion

I'd Rather Not Be Single

 

On December 8, 2021 Tom Christofferson posted on Facebook that he was going to begin dating men while maintaining the same dating standards that heterosexual Latter-day Saint couples follow. A number of my straight friends heard this news and asked me, “Why would he date if he knew he couldn’t get married? That doesn’t make any sense.” Then on January 15, 2022 David Archuleta posted a 50 minute video on Instagram explaining the conflict he feels as an LGBT Latter-day Saint. I listened to the whole thing. One thing he said multiple times is, “I don’t want a partner so I can have sex. I want someone to share my life with. This isn’t about sex.” That really resonated with me. 

[Snodgrassian]

Thank you California Boy, hearing your story is impactful to this conversation. Companionship and intimacy (all forms) play such crucial roles in our human experience. We are all wired differently, and we have our own needs that need to be fulfilled, and it isn't a bad thing if the sexual component is a major part of that. I for one would not want to go through this life without my partner and I hope all others who desire a relationship will successfully find that person for them. 

This may be in poor taste, but I am a bit skeptical of these "social media" stars that leverage a "unique" aspect of their life for recognition. I think it was the comedian Carrot Top that convinced Shaun White (a famous snowboarder) to cut his hair (both are/were well known for their long red hair). Carrot Top still has his and feels trapped by it. It is part of his identity. The same goes for the "Tattooed Mormon." When you build your brand/livelihood off of your 'uniqueness,' it is harder to walk away/change perspective. 

In the OP, I believe this person is being genuine in what they hope to accomplish by sharing their story, but it adds even more complexity to a difficult situation. Marriage, in general, is difficult to navigate, now you have a public aspect of it that shines the spotlight on you. 

[CV75]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Ok, thanks, I get it now.  I am used to getting the kind of s.....tuff that others have pulled out for me when I ask about it.  Same folks, same level of comments.

I am informed I am judging others when in fact THEY are judging me to be a hillbilly.   Par for the course.   

We all need to follow the path God leads us on, and we are all at different points in the path and what works for one may not work for everyone- or ANYone.

If you say that God leads you, there is no debate or response or judging or condemnation possible.

I certainly am not / cannot debate it!    Hang in there dude, "what a long strange trip it's been!"

The only thing that troubles me concerning another person's personal revelation is when the individual claiming it becomes less grounded and settled, and less kind, etc. as time/life goes on.

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, california boy said:

I thought this was relevant to the discussion

I'd Rather Not Be Single

 

On December 8, 2021 Tom Christofferson posted on Facebook that he was going to begin dating men while maintaining the same dating standards that heterosexual Latter-day Saint couples follow. A number of my straight friends heard this news and asked me, “Why would he date if he knew he couldn’t get married? That doesn’t make any sense.” Then on January 15, 2022 David Archuleta posted a 50 minute video on Instagram explaining the conflict he feels as an LGBT Latter-day Saint. I listened to the whole thing. One thing he said multiple times is, “I don’t want a partner so I can have sex. I want someone to share my life with. This isn’t about sex.” That really resonated with me. 

If that were true, he could marry  man OR a woman, and remain celibate.

I am confused yet again

Just date those who are asexual 

asexuals.net

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by mfbukowski

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

If that were true, he could marry  man OR a woman, and remain celibate.

I am confused yet again

Instead of making comments about what is “true”(what’s that word mean again), Maybe you should start listening to and asking questions to the gay people around you. You’d end up less confused. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

If that were true, he could marry  man OR a woman, and remain celibate.

I am confused yet again

Just date those who are asexual 

asexuals.net

 

You would be surprised how affectionate asexuals can be in ways that most people would think was flirting with the Law of Chastity.

And no, I don’t want to share how I know this.

Also taking sex out of the equation doesn’t make someone indifferent to the gender of their marriage partner.

Edited April 28, 2022 by The Nehor

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Instead of making comments about what is “true”(what’s that word mean again), Maybe you should start listening to and asking questions to the gay people around you. You’d end up less confused. 

I don't go around asking those I know what their sexual preferences are.

Maybe you do

Don't judge.  I survived the '60's as an atheist, and did .... let's just say I am not exactly naive about ANYTHING the world has to offer.

The man says he doesn't care about sex, and just wants companionship and love.

I suggest he date asexuals, which is now an easy option, and you come up with this s.......tuff trying to be clever. 

That focuses the issue and how HE would reply would reveal much about how he sees the world.

I met David a couple of times when he visited our ward, and found him to be a sweet and very nice young man in our VERY short conversations- he almost seemed shy and was very unassuming, and was clearly trying to avoid attention.

I completely believe he is simply looking for love, but it certainly is none of our business.

My point in mentioning "truth" was simply to point out that today, there is an answer for ANYONE'S "truth" no matter what they believe.

We have no right to judge any particular person's path

[mfbukowski]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You would be surprised how affectionate asexuals can be in ways that most people would think was flirting with the Law of Chastity.

And no, I don’t want to share how I know this.

Also taking sex out of the equation doesn’t make someone indifferent to the gender of their marriage partner.

No I would not be surprised at all

I know a couple

See directly above 

I'm outa this thread 

Edited April 28, 2022 by mfbukowski