From DesNews: A gay Latter-day Saint stands up for faith and family

[california boy]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

My friend certainly saw it that way. He was quite honest with his fiancée, but they both believed they could make it work if they had enough faith. Again, just seems wrong to me.

The alternative, I suppose, is not telling your spouse. That’s even worse. 

I married my wife based on our friendship and that she was such a good person.  I was never sexually attracted to her, but open to the promise that eventually I would no longer be gay.

She is still a good friend and a very good person.  And I am still not sexually attracted to her.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

My friend certainly saw it that way. He was quite honest with his fiancée, but they both believed they could make it work if they had enough faith. Again, just seems wrong to me.

The alternative, I suppose, is not telling your spouse. That’s even worse. 

OK, well I won't debate the point.  One can have all kinds of dreams before someone takes something like that on, depending on who you are, what goals one has, and how possible victory couild be.

It is similar to starting a business.   No one thinks at first that it will fail.    Hope springs eternal

[jkwilliams]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

OK, well I won't debate the point.  One can have all kinds of dreams before someone takes something like that on, depending on who you are, what goals one has, and how possible victory couild be.

It is similar to starting a business.   No one thinks at first that it will fail.    Hope springs eternal

Of course. No one goes into a marriage expecting it not to work. 

[rockpond]

20 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Ergo, every gay man who seeks to remain true to gospel covenants is destined to fail. That’s a very pessimistic insinuation. 

There are certainly many gay men who "remain true to gospel covenants".  I imagine that @MustardSeed's comment was highlighting the observation that those who go public with their situation seem more likely to leave the church then to stay in.

 

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, california boy said:

I married my wife based on our friendship and that she was such a good person.  I was never sexually attracted to her, but open to the promise that eventually I would no longer be gay.

She is still a good friend and a very good person.  And I am still not sexually attracted to her.

Maybe you could explain how such a relationship sometimes happens and results in multiple children before the husband finds it cannot work for him.  Something had to be working.

Many marriages are not sexually all fireworks and lightning, and yet the participants remain married.   When you have two virgins marrying, there simply HAVE to be adjustments.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Gay men married to women and publicly presenting themselves as successful examples are rare.  It’s not unreasonable for me to say that I ate a burnt popsicle once and disliked it so therefore I shall not repeat the experience, even though it’s a different popsicle. 

I don’t disagree that such men who are “publicly presenting themselves as successful examples” are rare. In fact, my premise was that we are generally not apt to hear about the successes because they do lead quiet lives under the radar, as it were, and we really have no idea how common they are. From my second post on this thread:

”Folks like Skyler Sorensen tend to be more reserved than their activist peers, so perhaps there are more in that category than we realize as they quietly live lives of faith and resolve.” 
 

I don’t consider Sorensen altogether typical, because Sorensen did not set out to go public about his life. From the article in the link, we learn that it was only by an unforeseen circumstance that he did so. His initial intent was to use his filmmaking talents to defend the Church online, not to present himself as an example of a gay Church member who is married. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[california boy]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Maybe you could explain how such a relationship sometimes happens and results in multiple children before the husband finds it cannot work for him.  Something had to be working.

Many marriages are not sexually all fireworks and lightning, and yet the participants remain married.   When you have two virgins marrying, there simply HAVE to be adjustments.

Sure.  Let me just say that no one really knows what the other person is thinking when they are having sex.  And I love having children.  They are a great blessing to both of us in our lives.  Being gay doesn't mean you don't want a family. Maybe none of that makes any sense to you, but it was how I could make it work until my kids were raised.  I felt like I owed it to them to stay in the marriage until they left the house.

I also think that I really didn't understand what that real love one can have for another person until I met my current partner.  Now I get it.  

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, california boy said:

Sure.  Let me just say that no one really knows what the other person is thinking when they are having sex.  And I love having children.  They are a great blessing to both of us in our lives.  Being gay doesn't mean you don't want a family. Maybe none of that makes any sense to you, but it was how I could make it work until my kids were raised.  I felt like I owed it to them to stay in the marriage until they left the house.

I also think that I really didn't understand what that real love one can have for another person until I met my current partner.  Now I get it.  

Ok thanks 

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t disagree that such men who are “publicly presenting themselves as successful examples” are rare. In fact, my premise was that we are generally not apt to hear about the successes because they do lead quiet lives under the radar, as it were, and we really have no idea how common they are. From my second post on this thread:

”Folks like Skyler Sorensen tend to be more reserved than their activist peers, so perhaps there are more in that category than we realize as they quietly live lives of faith and resolve.” 
 

I don’t consider Sorensen altogether typical, because Sorensen did not set out to go public about his life. From the article in the link, we learn that it was only by an unforeseen circumstance that he did so. His initial intent was to use his filmmaking talents to defend the Church online, not to present himself as an example of a gay Church member who is married. 

We can’t separate out from your example the fact that this is a public presentation, and like Bluebell already states, relationships under microscopes especially relationships that are anomalous are most likely precarious I assume.  No CFR to offer. 

[MustardSeed]

23 minutes ago, california boy said:

Sure.  Let me just say that no one really knows what the other person is thinking when they are having sex.  And I love having children.  They are a great blessing to both of us in our lives.  Being gay doesn't mean you don't want a family. Maybe none of that makes any sense to you, but it was how I could make it work until my kids were raised.  I felt like I owed it to them to stay in the marriage until they left the house.

I also think that I really didn't understand what that real love one can have for another person until I met my current partner.  Now I get it.  

Nor can any of us who aren’t living it know what it’s like to be married and religiously committed to a person who is of a gender we are not attracted to. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Maybe you could explain how such a relationship sometimes happens and results in multiple children before the husband finds it cannot work for him.  Something had to be working.

Many marriages are not sexually all fireworks and lightning, and yet the participants remain married.   When you have two virgins marrying, there simply HAVE to be adjustments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_sexual_behavior

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

The alternative, I suppose, is not telling your spouse. That’s even worse. 

You'd have to be the best actor in the world 24-7, married to the World's Stupidest Person to NOT understand what was happening.

I ain't buyin' it!

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

You'd have to be the best actor in the world 24-7, married to the World's Stupidest Person to NOT understand what was happening.

I ain't buyin' it!

I’m not sure what you’re saying here. If a gay person married someone of the opposite sex, of course it will at some point come out. But during courtship to not be honest with one’s betrothed would inevitably lead to much heartache. But you’re not buying it, for whatever reason. 

[california boy]

52 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You'd have to be the best actor in the world 24-7, married to the World's Stupidest Person to NOT understand what was happening.

I ain't buyin' it!

This is exactly why mostly/straight marriages fail. Most people can not live their entire lives pretending they are in a role that everyone wants them to be.  Some last longer than others.  We have all heard about the person who comes out in his 80's or even older after playing a role for their whole lives.  For most, at some point it becomes unbearable.

[mfbukowski]

51 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m not sure what you’re saying here. If a gay person married someone of the opposite sex, of course it will at some point come out. But during courtship to not be honest with one’s betrothed would inevitably lead to much heartache. But you’re not buying it, for whatever reason. 

No, as usual we cannot communicate with each other and I should not have tried.

Please explain your 3 sentences.  1- if a gay person marries someone of the opposite sex it will come out. 2- But if it's during courtship, a gay person NOT being honest = heartache. 3- But I am wrong for some reason.

Not following the alleged logic here.   Or we can just drop it- I am cool either way, you decide.

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, california boy said:

This is exactly why mostly/straight marriages fail. Most people can not live their entire lives pretending they are in a role that everyone wants them to be.  Some last longer than others.  We have all heard about the person who comes out in his 80's or even older after playing a role for their whole lives.  For most, at some point it becomes unbearable.

Yes, that I can understand- sort of.   On the other hand, that is the life they chose, thinking they COULD overcome their most basic "temptation"- if you allow that word in that situation.

At what point does what is seen as a "sin" become a "in a role that everyone wants them to be."

I guess that is the crucial question for me. 

 Behavior x is seen as a sin, and then because it is hard to overcome, one blames it on everyone else's standards being wrong.

THAT I think is the part I don't get, but I think we are making progress. 

It sounds to me like giving up on something really really hard to give up on.     I get how hard repentance can be- trust me!  Of course I am not going to reveal personal matters here.

But- dare I say it?- I still see it as "weak" and irresponsible when someone else has given you the responsibility to make their lives as happy as you can, and you agreed to that, to then jettison that promise because now it becomes "playing a role for their whole lives" when THEY THEMSELVES chose that!

I am trying hard to NOT be offensive, and I appreciate your willingness to discuss this.   I am just trying to feel more compassion toward others who have this particular problem- and know that ALL of us have our very FAVORITE behaviors we find to be "sinful"- or at least I have tons of them, but I would never give up on at least TRYING to overcome those.

I really do believe that Christ really was tempted and really DID "overcome the world" and whatever his temptation was- was conquered.

I am thinking of temptations people everywhere might surpress that others perhaps do not even understand, but will not mention them in this context, lest I be misunderstood.

There seems to be a lot of gaslighting here of late.

[jkwilliams]

30 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No, as usual we cannot communicate with each other and I should not have tried.

Please explain your 3 sentences.  1- if a gay person marries someone of the opposite sex it will come out. 2- But if it's during courtship, a gay person NOT being honest = heartache. 3- But I am wrong for some reason.

Not following the alleged logic here.   Or we can just drop it- I am cool either way, you decide.

It seems pretty straightforward to me: knowingly marrying a gay spouse is difficult enough. Doing so unwittingly is worse and will likely lead to heartache.

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

You'd have to be the best actor in the world 24-7, married to the World's Stupidest Person to NOT understand what was happening.

I ain't buyin' it!

Your blind ignorance is showing.

[jkwilliams]

15 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Your blind ignorance is showing.

That may be a bit harsh, but I’ve known closeted men who have maintained a marriage for years without their wives knowing. One of my mission companions was probably the most devoutly believing church member I have ever met, and he was gay. He was counseled to marry, and it wasn’t until at least 5 years of marriage that his wife figured out he was on Grindr and meeting guys at truck stops. I don’t think he was a particularly great actor. 

[ttribe]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That may be a bit harsh, but I’ve known closeted men who have maintained a marriage for years without their wives knowing. One of my mission companions was probably the most devoutly believing church member I have ever met, and he was gay. He was counseled to marry, and it wasn’t until at least 5 years of marriage that his wife figured out he was on Grindr and meeting guys at truck stops. I don’t think he was a particularly great actor. 

I have as well. I simply think Mark's 'I don't get it' responses are slathered in a sauce of 'them gays don't make no sense to me' and 'well you managed to get it up a few times with a woman to have kids, so how gay can you be' hillbilly bigotry.

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes, that I can understand- sort of.   On the other hand, that is the life they chose, thinking they COULD overcome their most basic "temptation"- if you allow that word in that situation.

At what point does what is seen as a "sin" become a "in a role that everyone wants them to be."

I guess that is the crucial question for me. 

 Behavior x is seen as a sin, and then because it is hard to overcome, one blames it on everyone else's standards being wrong.

THAT I think is the part I don't get, but I think we are making progress. 

It sounds to me like giving up on something really really hard to give up on.     I get how hard repentance can be- trust me!  Of course I am not going to reveal personal matters here.

But- dare I say it?- I still see it as "weak" and irresponsible when someone else has given you the responsibility to make their lives as happy as you can, and you agreed to that, to then jettison that promise because now it becomes "playing a role for their whole lives" when THEY THEMSELVES chose that!

I am trying hard to NOT be offensive, and I appreciate your willingness to discuss this.   I am just trying to feel more compassion toward others who have this particular problem- and know that ALL of us have our very FAVORITE behaviors we find to be "sinful"- or at least I have tons of them, but I would never give up on at least TRYING to overcome those.

I really do believe that Christ really was tempted and really DID "overcome the world" and whatever his temptation was- was conquered.

I am thinking of temptations people everywhere might surpress that others perhaps do not even understand, but will not mention them in this context, lest I be misunderstood.

There seems to be a lot of gaslighting here of late.

Realizing you’ve made a terrible mistake and trying to limit the damage, particularly to others, seems the opposite of weak. 

[california boy]

40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes, that I can understand- sort of.   On the other hand, that is the life they chose, thinking they COULD overcome their most basic "temptation"- if you allow that word in that situation.

At what point does what is seen as a "sin" become a "in a role that everyone wants them to be."

I guess that is the crucial question for me. 

 Behavior x is seen as a sin, and then because it is hard to overcome, one blames it on everyone else's standards being wrong.

THAT I think is the part I don't get, but I think we are making progress. 

It sounds to me like giving up on something really really hard to give up on.     I get how hard repentance can be- trust me!  Of course I am not going to reveal personal matters here.

But- dare I say it?- I still see it as "weak" and irresponsible when someone else has given you the responsibility to make their lives as happy as you can, and you agreed to that, to then jettison that promise because now it becomes "playing a role for their whole lives" when THEY THEMSELVES chose that!

I am trying hard to NOT be offensive, and I appreciate your willingness to discuss this.   I am just trying to feel more compassion toward others who have this particular problem- and know that ALL of us have our very FAVORITE behaviors we find to be "sinful"- or at least I have tons of them, but I would never give up on at least TRYING to overcome those.

I really do believe that Christ really was tempted and really DID "overcome the world" and whatever his temptation was- was conquered.

I am thinking of temptations people everywhere might surpress that others perhaps do not even understand, but will not mention them in this context, lest I be misunderstood.

There seems to be a lot of gaslighting here of late.

I appreciate you trying to understand the process that I think most gay people go through. I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but I can tell you my own journey.  I guess for me, I put way too much trust into Church leaders.  I thought they had some special relationship with God that could help guide me in doing what is right.  But that turned out not to be true.  What they promised and told me was not true at all.  So I started relying more on God rather than men.  There was one scripture that really became my mantra.

Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not.
Doctrine & Covenants 6:36

I began to let God guide me.  He opened up my mind to what really my path should be.  And I began to trust Him.  The more I trusted God, the more clear that path opened up for me.  It is why people can throw as many quotes from general authorities they want at me.  Doesn't really matter to me what they think is sin or not.  I know so surely that God wants me right where I am, doing exactly what I am doing.  It doesn't mean I am perfect, but it does mean I am drawing closer to Him.

[california boy]

46 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I have as well. I simply think Mark's 'I don't get it' responses are slathered in a sauce of 'them gays don't make no sense to me' and 'well you managed to get it up a few times with a woman to have kids, so how gay can you be' hillbilly bigotry.

I think Mark is just trying to understand how this all works.  The fact that he is asking about it, to me means that he is trying to understand rather than judging.  I appreciate the dialogue.  Way better than hurling insults back and forth.

[ttribe]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

I think Mark is just trying to understand how this all works.  The fact that he is asking about it, to me means that he is trying to understand rather than judging.  I appreciate the dialogue.  Way better than hurling insults back and forth.

I apologize to Mark, then. My interpretation of his use of folksy language was far less charitable.

[california boy]

55 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That may be a bit harsh, but I’ve known closeted men who have maintained a marriage for years without their wives knowing. One of my mission companions was probably the most devoutly believing church member I have ever met, and he was gay. He was counseled to marry, and it wasn’t until at least 5 years of marriage that his wife figured out he was on Grindr and meeting guys at truck stops. I don’t think he was a particularly great actor. 

I had this very discussion with my wife after coming out.  I asked her if she knew I was gay.  I mean sometimes guys would be flirting with me when I was right next to her.  She told me that she never saw guys flirting with me, she only saw women.  I am like What?? I never saw that.   I guess you see what you want to see.