JLHPROF Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 D&C 95:12 If you keep not my commandments, the love of the Father shall not continue with you, therefore you shall walk in darkness. Does this warning apply only to our ability to love or do you think we really can alienate God's love? Scripture tells us God chastens those he loves, but indicates that he doesn't chasten everyone. (Hebrews 12:6-8 for example). What say you all? Is love a synonym for spirit here? Or is God's affection ever conditional?
CV75 Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 29 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: D&C 95:12 If you keep not my commandments, the love of the Father shall not continue with you, therefore you shall walk in darkness. Does this warning apply only to our ability to love or do you think we really can alienate God's love? Scripture tells us God chastens those he loves, but indicates that he doesn't chasten everyone. (Hebrews 12:6-8 for example). What say you all? Is love a synonym for spirit here? Or is God's affection ever conditional? 11 Verily I say unto you, it is my will that you should build a house. aIf you keep my commandments you shall have power to build it. 12 If you akeep not my commandments, the blove of the Father shall not continue with you, therefore you shall cwalk in darkness. I think this particular verse is specific to the particular task at hand, as are many other scriptural verses about God's love for us and our love for Him. If the temple is not built, they will not be endowed with power from on high and thus walk in darkness. But I think the eternal principle works both ways: the full expression of our love of the Father is in keeping the commandments, which can expand or dwindle, and the full expression of the Father’s love for us (exaltation) can dwindle to lesser kingdoms, and that these expressions of love are conditional upon the law of grace. I do not think this means the Father loves some children more than others any more than through grace, some members of the Church of the Firstborn love Him more than others. I am sure there are other emotions accompanying His feelings of love of His children, depending on what kingdom they are in, and vice-versa. Edited March 20, 2022 by CV75
bluebell Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 19 hours ago, JLHPROF said: D&C 95:12 If you keep not my commandments, the love of the Father shall not continue with you, therefore you shall walk in darkness. Does this warning apply only to our ability to love or do you think we really can alienate God's love? Scripture tells us God chastens those he loves, but indicates that he doesn't chasten everyone. (Hebrews 12:6-8 for example). What say you all? Is love a synonym for spirit here? Or is God's affection ever conditional? Pres Nelson (then Elder Nelson) taught this in an ensign article from the early 2000. Quote Divine Love By Elder Russell M. Nelson Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional. In today’s world trembling with terror and hatred, our knowledge of divine love is of utmost importance. We bear responsibility to understand and testify that Heavenly Father and Jesus the Christ are glorified, living, and loving personages. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jesus “so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God.” Indeed, the Father and the Son are one—in purpose and love. Divine Love Is Perfect and Infinite Their love is divine by definition. Scriptures also describe it as perfect. It is infinite because the Atonement was an act of love for all who ever lived, who now live, and who will ever live. It is also infinite because it transcends time. Divine Love Is Enduring Divine love is enduring: “The Lord … keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations.” Divine Love Is Universal Divine love is universal. God “maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” Jesus is the light of the world, giving life and law to all things. “He inviteth … all to come unto him … ; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female.” And all are invited to pray unto our Father in Heaven. Divine Love Is Also Conditional While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional. The word does not appear in the scriptures. On the other hand, many verses affirm that the higher levels of love the Father and the Son feel for each of us—and certain divine blessings stemming from that love—are conditional. Before citing examples, it is well to recognize various forms of conditional expression in the scriptures. Conditional Forms Several forms of conditional expression may be found in the scriptures: “If … [certain conditions exist], then … [certain consequences follow].” (The indicators if and then may be written or implied.) “Inasmuch as … [certain conditions exist], … [certain consequences follow].” “Except … cannot …” “Prove … , if … ” For example, a verse pertaining to our creation reveals a prime purpose for our sojourn here in mortality: “We will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them.” Life here is a period of mortal probation. Our thoughts and actions determine whether our mortal probation can merit heavenly approbation. The Conditional Nature of Divine Love With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. Examples include: “If ye keep my commandments, [then] ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.” “If you keep not my commandments, [then] the love of the Father shall not continue with you.” “If a man love me, [then] he will keep my words: and my Father will love him.” “I love them that love me; and those that seek me … shall find me.” “God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” The Lord “loveth those who will have him to be their God.” “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” The Conditional Nature of Divine Blessings It is equally evident that certain blessings come from a loving Lord only if required conditions are met. Examples include: “If thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, … then I will lengthen thy days.” “If thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments … ; then will I perform my word with thee.” “I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.” “When we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.” “Unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.” The Lord declares: “All who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof. … “And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God. “… The conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed … of him who is anointed, … are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead.” Other laws are designed to bless us here in mortality. One such law is tithing: “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse … and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord … , if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” Such a blessing is conditional. Those who fail to tithe have no promise. Again, “all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised … that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.” Why is divine love conditional? Because God loves us and wants us to be happy. “Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God.” Our Defense against False Ideologies Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly “unconditional” can defend us against common fallacies such as these: “Since God’s love is unconditional, He will love me regardless …”; or “Since ‘God is love,’ He will love me unconditionally, regardless …” These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Nehor, for example, promoted himself by teaching falsehoods: He “testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, … for the Lord had created all men, … and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.” Sadly, some of the people believed Nehor’s fallacious and unconditional concepts. In contrast to Nehor’s teachings, divine love warns us that “wickedness never was happiness.” Jesus explains, “Come unto me and be ye saved; … except ye shall keep my commandments, … ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Divine Love and the Sinner Does this mean the Lord does not love the sinner? Of course not. Divine love is infinite and universal. The Savior loves both saints and sinners. The Apostle John affirmed, “We love him, because he first loved us.” And Nephi, upon seeing in vision the Lord’s mortal ministry, declared: “The world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men.” We know the expansiveness of the Redeemer’s love because He died that all who die might live again. Immortality and Eternal Life God declared that His work and glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” Thanks to the Atonement, the gift of immortality is unconditional. The greater gift of eternal life, however, is conditional. In order to qualify, one must deny oneself of ungodliness and honor the ordinances and covenants of the temple. The resplendent bouquet of God’s love—including eternal life—includes blessings for which we must qualify, not entitlements to be expected unworthily. Sinners cannot bend His will to theirs and require Him to bless them in sin. If they desire to enjoy every bloom in His beautiful bouquet, they must repent. Counsel to Repent President Brigham Young (1801–77) declared: “Every blessing the Lord proffers to his people is on conditions. These conditions are: ‘Obey my law, keep my commandments, walk in my ordinances, observe my statutes, love mercy, … keep yourselves pure in the law, and then you are entitled to these blessings, and not until then.’” President Joseph F. Smith (1838–1918) expressed a similar thought: “This is how I look at the requirements which God has made upon his people collectively and individually, and I do believe that I have no claim upon God or upon my brethren for blessing, favor, confidence or love, unless, by my works, I prove that I am worthy thereof, and I never expect to receive blessings that I do not merit.” President Spencer W. Kimball (1895–1985) said that the Lord “‘cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.’ (D&C 1:31.) … We will better appreciate his love … if similar abhorrence for sin impels us to transform our lives through repentance.” Given the imperfections we all have, individual initiative is imperative: “He that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven; “And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord.” In climbing the pathway of repentance, both the effort and the result count. The Lord taught that spiritual gifts are given to “those who love me and keep all my commandments, and [who] seeketh so to do.” Divine Love Provides Us with a Pattern Jesus asked us to love one another as He has loved us. Is that possible? Can our love for others really approach divine love? Yes it can! The pure love of Christ is granted to all who seek and qualify for it. Such love includes service and requires obedience. Compliance with divine law requires faith—the pivotal point of mortality’s testing and trials. At the same time, faith proves our love for God. The more committed we become to patterning our lives after His, the purer and more divine our love becomes. Perhaps no love in mortality approaches the divine more than the love parents have for their children. As parents, we have the same obligation to teach obedience that our heavenly parents felt obliged to teach us. While we can teach the need for tolerance of others’ differences, we cannot tolerate their infractions of the laws of God. Our children are to be taught the doctrines of the kingdom, to trust in the Lord, and to know that they receive the blessings of His love by first obeying His commandments. Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional—predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. I pray that we may qualify for those blessings and rejoice forever. What Does Conditional Mean? The term conditional comes from Latin roots—con, meaning “with,” and dicere, meaning “to talk.” Thus, conditional means that “bounds or conditions have been communicated verbally.” The term unconditional means “without condition or limitation; absolute.” Fishers of Men, by Simon Dewey, courtesy of Altus Fine Art, American Fork, Utah The Last Judgment, by John Scott Photograph by Steve Bunderson, posed by models Edited March 21, 2022 by bluebell
BlueDreams Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: D&C 95:12 If you keep not my commandments, the love of the Father shall not continue with you, therefore you shall walk in darkness. Does this warning apply only to our ability to love or do you think we really can alienate God's love? Scripture tells us God chastens those he loves, but indicates that he doesn't chasten everyone. (Hebrews 12:6-8 for example). What say you all? Is love a synonym for spirit here? Or is God's affection ever conditional? God’s love is not simply a sentiment but an action/experience. Thus why charity being the pure love of Christ. So it can be a bit of both. God can have a deep affection towards all of us…but if we refuse to engage with God on more than our own terms, a love relationship (aka charity) will be limited. with luv, BD Edited March 20, 2022 by BlueDreams 3
mfbukowski Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Does this warning apply only to our ability to love... Yep. We lose the spirit, and cannot FEEL His spirit/love, so we walk in darkness 4
Calm Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 2 hours ago, BlueDreams said: God’s love is not simply a sentiment but an action/experience. Thus why charity being the pure love of Christ. So it can be a bit of both. God can have a deep affection towards all of us…but if we refuse to engage with God on more than our own terms, a love relationship (aka charity) will be limited. with luv, BD Examples of the bit of both: divine love is unconditional/universal in that Christ died for all of us and has given everyone (regardless of what kind of person they are) the gift of resurrection. Conditional expressions of divine love: not everyone is resurrected at the same time or given the opportunity to pursue exaltation, this is conditioned on their behaviour, their choices. 4
Durangout Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 Pres. Nelson was very clear: God’s love is conditional. https://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/Divine Love RMN.pdf 1
Tacenda Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Durangout said: Pres. Nelson was very clear: God’s love is conditional. https://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/Divine Love RMN.pdf And that's a good thing?
Popular Post Calm Posted March 21, 2022 Popular Post Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Durangout said: Pres. Nelson was very clear: God’s love is conditional. https://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/Divine Love RMN.pdf Love is not a monolithic experience to be summarized in one or even a few absolutes, imo. So one can say God’s love is just. One can also say God’s love is merciful. This is not a paradox. It is not the contradiction it would be if God’s love is of only one quality. I think of it more like a magnificent feast of the finest ingredients rather than a simple one ingredient meal, even if the ingredient is perfect in its own way, like an egg (many of my meals are simply two hard boiled eggs, very satisfying when hungry but not in the mood for effort). Edited March 21, 2022 by Calm 5
Durangout Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 8 hours ago, Tacenda said: And that's a good thing? Elder Christopherson expressed similar thoughts: https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/2016-10-01/elder-d-todd-christofferson-abide-in-my-love-23775
Saint Bonaventure Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 17 hours ago, JLHPROF said: D&C 95:12 If you keep not my commandments, the love of the Father shall not continue with you, therefore you shall walk in darkness. Does this warning apply only to our ability to love or do you think we really can alienate God's love? Scripture tells us God chastens those he loves, but indicates that he doesn't chasten everyone. (Hebrews 12:6-8 for example). What say you all? Is love a synonym for spirit here? Or is God's affection ever conditional? My approach to this is: God is love (1 John 4:8) and when we're not keeping the commandments, we're not accepting God/Love. St. John of the Cross goes into great detail on this topic. 2
pogi Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Durangout said: Elder Christopherson expressed similar thoughts: https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/2016-10-01/elder-d-todd-christofferson-abide-in-my-love-23775 While I understand where Elder Nelson (at the time) was coming from, I think it is unfortunate that he used such absolute terms in stating that God's love cannot be considered unconditional. Of course that is not absolutely true as the atonement was an unconditional act of love. He died for...all...because he loves us. Of course, some (but not all) blessings of the atonement are conditional, but that does not diminish his act of unconditional love for saint and sinner alike. Elder Christopherson even acknowledges in this talk that God's love is unconditional in some sense ("while in one sense that is true"), noting that “God’s love is infinite and it will endure forever, but what it means for each of us depends on how we respond to His love.” Elder Christopherson continues: Quote Because God’s love is all-embracing, some speak of it as “unconditional,” and in their minds they may project that thought to mean that God’s blessings are “unconditional” and that salvation is “unconditional.” They are not. Some are wont to say, “The Savior loves me just as I am,” and that is certainly true. But He cannot take any of us into His kingdom just as we are, “for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence.”7 Our sins must first be resolved. Here, Elder Christofferson acknowledges that the Savior does indeed love me "as I am" - aka, unconditional love. So, I think we need to be careful not to use absolutes here. His love is unconditional in some regards and can never ever, ever be lost due to our actions. His hands are ALWAYS extended out to us...whether or not we accept the gifts of his love is conditional upon us, however. He will not force his love on us. In that sense only is it conditional. I much prefer the language of this official church manual: Quote Lesson Five I Am a Child of God Explain that God is the perfect parent. He loves each of us unconditionally. No matter what we do, he loves us. He can bless us when we obey his commandments, and he must deny us blessings when we do not. But he always loves us and wants us to grow to our full potential (see Moses 1:39). Discuss with your family what that unconditional love means to them. Have the family read the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11–32). Discuss the joy our Heavenly Father feels when we repent and try to return to him. Assure them that as they repent and go to their Heavenly Father in prayer, he will put his love into their hearts (see Moroni 7:48) and they will know that he loves them. https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/family-home-evening-resource-book/family-home-evening-lessons/lesson-five-i-am-a-child-of-god?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.churchofjesuschrist.org%2Fstudy%2Fmanual%2Ffamily-home-evening-resource-book%2Ffamily-home-evening-lessons%2Flesson-five-i-am-a-child-of-god%3Flang%3Deng&adobe_mc_sdid=SDID%3D7153A0F7E4D986D4-63D860A1034E3106|MCORGID%3D66C5485451E56AAE0A490D45%40AdobeOrg|TS%3D1647874024 The reason that some of the brethren are hesitant about the term "unconditional love", is that it may lead to "mistaken impressions", as Elder Christopherson put it: Quote ...the word unconditional can convey mistaken impressions about divine love, such as, God tolerates and excuses anything we do because His love is unconditional, or God makes no demands upon us because His love is unconditional, or all are saved in the heavenly kingdom of God because His love is unconditional. True, it may lead to mistaken impressions. But my concern is that suggesting that God's love is not unconditional may equally lead to mistaken impressions with harmful consequences. How 'bout we clarify what God's love is and what it is not and avoid these mistaken impressions by avoiding these absolutes. Edited March 21, 2022 by pogi 2
JLHPROF Posted March 21, 2022 Author Posted March 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said: My approach to this is: God is love (1 John 4:8) and when we're not keeping the commandments, we're not accepting God/Love. St. John of the Cross goes into great detail on this topic. My familiarity with St. John of the Cross came from Loreena McKennitt who wrote a lovely song using one of his poems. 1
Nofear Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) While not exactly a fan of the vast majority of bycommonconsent, this article basically agrees with my sentiment that in many cases "love" can be better translated as "approval". https://bycommonconsent.com/2022/03/14/is-divine-love-unconditional-grappling-with-a-20-year-old-lds-doctrinal-conundrum/ Edited March 21, 2022 by Nofear 2
mfbukowski Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Calm said: Love is not a monolithic experience to be summarized in one or even a few absolutes, imo. So one can say God’s love is just. One can also say God’s love is merciful. This is not a paradox. It is not the contradiction it would be if God’s love is of only one quality. I think of it more like a magnificent feast of the finest ingredients rather than a simple one ingredient meal, even if the ingredient is perfect in its own way, like an egg (many of my meals are simply two hard boiled eggs, very satisfying when hungry but not in the mood for effort). Yep! Oy vey! As always, the ridiculous problems we have with language! And so now we have an entire thread which is conditional on a conditional interpretation of the word conditional to figure out if we can say that God's love is or is not conditional??? That depends on the conditions. Why do we do this kind of thing again and again? And for the literalists remember that language got confounded and made conditional on certain conditions found at the tower of Babel, on the condition that the tower ever existed. But what does "exist" mean? Symbols exist ...? It depends .... Squiggles on a page are not things Edited March 21, 2022 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Nofear said: While not exactly a fan of the vast majority of bycommonconsent, this article basically agrees with my sentiment that in many cases "love" can be better translated as "approval". https://bycommonconsent.com/2022/03/14/is-divine-love-unconditional-grappling-with-a-20-year-old-lds-doctrinal-conundrum/ And "truth" mainly means approval as well. I know because I know the church is true. Edited March 21, 2022 by mfbukowski 1
Nofear Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: And "truth" mainly means approval as well. I know because I know the church is true. And we both love it too. 1
pogi Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nofear said: While not exactly a fan of the vast majority of bycommonconsent, this article basically agrees with my sentiment that in many cases "love" can be better translated as "approval". https://bycommonconsent.com/2022/03/14/is-divine-love-unconditional-grappling-with-a-20-year-old-lds-doctrinal-conundrum/ In some sense that may be true, but "agape" (the Greek word describing God's love for man in scripture) is so much more than a mere approval, and often has nothing to do with approval of our behavior. Approval is indeed conditional, but agape is not. The following passage demonstrates that agape love is not conditional upon His approval of our actions: Quote But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. The contrast between God's unconditional love (in some sense) for us and the conditional experience of his blessings is summed up perfectly in the following: Quote For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. This shows that God's love is unconditionally applied to the entirety of his children in the world, as evidenced by the giving of his son, regardless of his approval of their behavior - our ability to accept and thus realize the fullest extent of his love through "believing (and all that entails)" is conditional however. Agape (translated as charity in this passage) is shown to be more than just approval in 1 Corinthians 13: Quote 1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. God's love for us "never faileth", regardless of what extent of that love and blessings we allow our self to enjoy. I agree with the articles conclusion, however: Quote Here is what President Nelson should have said: “Yes, God unconditionally loves you. But he doesn’t unconditionally approve of your behavior, or unconditionally bless you. See how easy that was? See how clear it is? It’s completely accurate doctrinally, and it is unlikely to confuse anyone. Problem solved. Edited March 21, 2022 by pogi 1
Nofear Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 47 minutes ago, pogi said: :snip: I think the whole point is that "love" is used differently in different scriptural passages. In general, I think "love" is one of those oft used words that sometimes leaves very little clarity as to what is precisely meant. Precision of language. A bit over the top, this: 1
pogi Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 25 minutes ago, Nofear said: I think the whole point is that "love" is used differently in different scriptural passages. In general, I think "love" is one of those oft used words that sometimes leaves very little clarity as to what is precisely meant. Precision of language. Agreed, that's why I think it was a mistake to make an absolute claim that God's love "cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional". There now exists a cultural taboo around God's unconditional love. That is unfortunate. 2
mfbukowski Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 3 hours ago, pogi said: In some sense that may be true, but "agape" (the Greek word describing God's love for man in scripture) is so much more than a mere approval, and often has nothing to do with approval of our behavior. Approval is indeed conditional, but agape is not. The following passage demonstrates that agape love is not conditional upon His approval of our actions: The contrast between God's unconditional love (in some sense) for us and the conditional experience of his blessings is summed up perfectly in the following: This shows that God's love is unconditionally applied to the entirety of his children in the world, as evidenced by the giving of his son, regardless of his approval of their behavior - our ability to accept and thus realize the fullest extent of his love through "believing (and all that entails)" is conditional however. Agape (translated as charity in this passage) is shown to be more than just approval in 1 Corinthians 13: God's love for us "never faileth", regardless of what extent of that love and blessings we allow our self to enjoy. I agree with the articles conclusion, however: But here's the deal: Which one is the "Word of God"? Which language does he speak? All are wrong, and all are right, so pick the one you "approve". Incomeasurability is a problem in all languages, and even the act of verbalizing gets it "wrong", since words are not experiences, and words are not things. You can't sit on "c-h-a-i-r" and besides it might actually be a Chesterfield.
pogi Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: But here's the deal: Which one is the "Word of God"? Which language does he speak? All are wrong, and all are right, so pick the one you "approve". Incomeasurability is a problem in all languages, and even the act of verbalizing gets it "wrong", since words are not experiences, and words are not things. You can't sit on "c-h-a-i-r" and besides it might actually be a Chesterfield. Obviously, words always get in the way and are incommensurable, but alas we are resigned to use them to describe our experience with God. While imperfect descriptors, the scriptures are important. Words are important. Words/scriptures are tools that lead to experience and thus understanding. Unconditional vs conditional - neither term perfectly fits God's love in all contexts, and no words fit perfectly in any context. I think we are both making the same point there. They are both right, and they are both wrong, but depending on how you are using it some descriptions may be more helpful. I think that describing God's love as unconditional is useful and perfectly appropriate in some contexts, but not in others. That is why I found it unfortunate that due to a talk that used absolute terms in suggesting that Gods love "cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional", period, there now exists a cultural taboo around the idea of unconditional love - a characteristic of Gods love which I know exists through experience. By trying to avoid misunderstanding about the nature of God's unconditional nature of love, I think misunderstanding may have inadvertently been created by stating that it is only conditional. Edited March 21, 2022 by pogi 3
mfbukowski Posted March 22, 2022 Posted March 22, 2022 10 hours ago, pogi said: Obviously, words always get in the way and are incommensurable, but alas we are resigned to use them to describe our experience with God. While imperfect descriptors, the scriptures are important. Words are important. Words/scriptures are tools that lead to experience and thus understanding. Unconditional vs conditional - neither term perfectly fits God's love in all contexts, and no words fit perfectly in any context. I think we are both making the same point there. They are both right, and they are both wrong, but depending on how you are using it some descriptions may be more helpful. I think that describing God's love as unconditional is useful and perfectly appropriate in some contexts, but not in others. That is why I found it unfortunate that due to a talk that used absolute terms in suggesting that Gods love "cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional", period, there now exists a cultural taboo around the idea of unconditional love - a characteristic of Gods love which I know exists through experience. By trying to avoid misunderstanding about the nature of God's unconditional nature of love, I think misunderstanding may have inadvertently been created by stating that it is only conditional. You put that very nicely and accurately I think. 1
Nofear Posted March 22, 2022 Posted March 22, 2022 12 hours ago, pogi said: Obviously, words always get in the way and are incommensurable, but alas we are resigned to use them to describe our experience with God. While imperfect descriptors, the scriptures are important. Words are important. Words/scriptures are tools that lead to experience and thus understanding. Unconditional vs conditional - neither term perfectly fits God's love in all contexts, and no words fit perfectly in any context. I think we are both making the same point there. They are both right, and they are both wrong, but depending on how you are using it some descriptions may be more helpful. I think that describing God's love as unconditional is useful and perfectly appropriate in some contexts, but not in others. That is why I found it unfortunate that due to a talk that used absolute terms in suggesting that Gods love "cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional", period, there now exists a cultural taboo around the idea of unconditional love - a characteristic of Gods love which I know exists through experience. By trying to avoid misunderstanding about the nature of God's unconditional nature of love, I think misunderstanding may have inadvertently been created by stating that it is only conditional. With mfbukowski, I also second your sentiments. Fortunately, there has been some push back to our fallible prophets. Not that what Pres. Nelson said was overtly wrong, but that talk lacked some of the nuance that you describe. I am still very happy to sustain and support and believe in him as a prophet, seer, revelator, and the presiding high priest. 2
Durangout Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) Ecclesiasticus 12:6 “For the most High hateth sinners, and will repay vengeance unto the ungodly, and keepeth them against the mighty day of their punishment.” King James Version (KJV) Sure seems like His love is conditional in that verse. Edited March 23, 2022 by Durangout
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