It’s absolutely terrifying what BYU has become

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Durangout said:

That BYU has one professor like this is inexcusable.  Obviously BYU knows who and what he is and what teaches.

 

5 hours ago, california boy said:

What is the Church coming to.  A gay professor? He should be run out of town on a rail since we can't really burn him at a stake.  We don't want "those kind" at BYU.  I thought that was pretty clear.

 

This post sums up the pretense the gays are accepted in the Church as long as they are celibate,   It reinforces my experience that many members have that there is no room for gay people in the Church.

Any good university should be a place of open inquiry in a non-threatening environment of gracious interaction.  We don't find the equivalent at BYU of the recent occasion of Yale Law students preventing an open discussion on campus.  We ought to be aware of the enforcement of totalitarian ideological norms on most American campuses.  Free speech is under active assault on nearly every campus in America.  Is that really what we want?

[california boy]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Nobody is condemned for how they are born, but for the actions they choose to do.

Well that is not true.  Durangout made no distinction.  He called out all homosexuals whether they were celibate or not.

6 hours ago, Durangout said:

ahhhhh…the name calling.  FYI, homosexuality is a corruption of God’s plan for his children to become like Him, and is damming to those involved.  I didn’t make up the rules.  God did.

The fact that a significant portion of members of The Church today don’t find this abhorrent is pretty sad.  Maybe it is ok that BYU has professors that promote homosexual relations.  More and more members seem to follow the world in this regard.

 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Any good university should be a place of open inquiry in a non-threatening environment of gracious interaction.  We don't find the equivalent at BYU of the recent occasion of Yale Law students preventing an open discussion on campus.  We ought to be aware of the enforcement of totalitarian ideological norms on most American campuses.  Free speech is under active assault on nearly every campus in America.  Is that really what we want?

What are you talking about?

 

 

Quote

 

BYU Professor Fired For LGBTQ Advocacy Highlights

News

Just a few of the highlights from https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2022/01/12/byu-bans-protests-y/ for people who want a TLDR edition, or just don't to get bombarded by ads from cookies.

"It wasn’t her performance. She had years of top marks on her evaluations, she said, from her students and her supervisor.

"At 64 years old, Bergin has spent almost half of her life — 28 years — working at the private religious school operated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

"...The school declined to give her a reason or tell her who made the decision."

"Now, any display is against the rules where “two or more people gather to raise awareness about, or express a viewpoint on, an issue or cause.” A spokesperson for the school said that could include two people wearing rainbow items or two professors putting rainbow signs on their doors."

 

 

[JLHPROF]

34 minutes ago, california boy said:

Well that is not true.  Durangout made no distinction.  He called out all homosexuals whether they were celibate or not.

Fair enough, I suppose he did. People aren't their sins.  We all have challenges, it's our actions that matter.

[california boy]

25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Fair enough, I suppose he did. People aren't their sins.  We all have challenges, it's our actions that matter.

Not for everyone.  Some are condemned for who they are.  And some are more condemned by what their sins are.  I don't see this kind of lashing out for sins of straight people, do you?

Maybe I am more sensitive about these kinds of judgments.  I have been dealing with it my entire life.  Even long before I ever let my secret out. I knew at 12 years old that I was less than, not normal, and condemned, not for my sins, but because I was gay.  There is a reason why gay people stay in the closet and it is not because of their sins.  I have lived in a different world than you, so I understand that your viewpoint is different than the one I have experienced.  But I do appreciate your empathy.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

What are you talking about?..........

You are referring to actions by BYU administration and or the Board of Trustees to prevent use of BYU to advocate an anti-LDS position.  I was talking about deliberate interference by Yale Law students in a scheduled discussion.  Yale is not a religious institution, but instead a secular school which presumably is open to the free marketplace of ideas.  This is particularly true of law students, who are supposed to be learning to advocate for any position -- and do so regularly in a moot court setting.

Education at BYU is primarily paid for by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, thus making it affordable to LDS students, and the rules governing it are frankly LDS.  There is plenty of room for discussion here as to whether that is a good thing, and, if so, what should that mean in practice.  What I was pointing out is that at BYU you don't find groups of students shouting down expressions of a variety of points of view -- thus preventing free speech.

[katherine the great]

Idk about the rabbis interpreting Joseph’s actions as gay, but I thought his examples of categorizing gendered behavior were very interesting. Certainly Joseph’s domesticity and compassion would have registered as somewhat feminine in their culture. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What I was pointing out is that at BYU you don't find groups of students shouting down expressions of a variety of points of view -- thus preventing free speech.

There has been the occasional attempt, iirc…though minus the actual shouting in this case apparently.

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/11/us/11byu.html

Edited March 20, 2022 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

57 minutes ago, Calm said:

There has been the occasional attempt, iirc…though minus the actual shouting in this case apparently.

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/11/us/11byu.html

Interesting.  I wonder if they would object to Liz Cheney as a commencement speaker?

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Interesting.  I wonder if they would object to Liz Cheney as a commencement speaker?

I generally think politician just shouldn’t be commencement speakers. Who decided this was a good idea? Why not bring in academics instead? People at the top of their field.

To be a successful politician just means you can win the occasional popularity contest.

[SwedishLDS]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I generally think politician just shouldn’t be commencement speakers. Who decided this was a good idea? Why not bring in academics instead? People at the top of their field.

To be a successful politician just means you can win the occasional popularity contest.

indeed, we should be really really careful about promoting politicians. glorifying politicians goes badly and politicians aren’t known for being moral examples.

12 hours ago, california boy said:

Not for everyone.  Some are condemned for who they are.  And some are more condemned by what their sins are.  I don't see this kind of lashing out for sins of straight people, do you?

Maybe I am more sensitive about these kinds of judgments.  I have been dealing with it my entire life.  Even long before I ever let my secret out. I knew at 12 years old that I was less than, not normal, and condemned, not for my sins, but because I was gay.  There is a reason why gay people stay in the closet and it is not because of their sins.  I have lived in a different world than you, so I understand that your viewpoint is different than the one I have experienced.  But I do appreciate your empathy.

understandable, I do think there is a difference between the church's ideal and teachings and reality here sometimes. Your pain is very understandable, hopefully you may find more charity from your peers.

What bothers me is that we live in a world who doesn’t even consider sexual relations outside of marriage as a sin, and gender to be fluid and not eternal as taught by President Oaks. Very concerning seeing laws allowing 12 year olds being able to change their gender without parental permission here in Sweden. And this thinking seems to infect many inside the church as well, later making them leave the church often

This professor is clearly promoting false doctrine and mingling scriptture with philosophy and man

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[Scott Lloyd]

On 3/18/2022 at 8:33 PM, bsjkki said:

https://campusreform.org/article?id=19177

Wondering what I would do were I a student in that class. I’d be tempted to tell the professor to pound sand. 
 

I’d probably pursue some more benign and productive recourse, however, such as proposing an alternative homework assignment, one that didn’t offend my values. 
 

Or simply transfer out of the class. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[SwedishLDS]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Wondering what I would do were I a student in that class. I’d be tempted to tell the professor to pound sand. 
 

I’d probably pursue some more benign and productive recourse, however, such as proposing an alternative homework assignment, one that didn’t offend my values. 
 

Or simply transfer out of the class. 

This ks blatant false doctrine and pushing of personal views that are so obviously the philosophy of men mingled with scripture

Edited March 20, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, SwedishLDS said:

I wouldn’t be able to stand such blatant false doctrine and pushing of personal views that are so obviously the philosophy of men mingled with scripture

How did you get through college out of curiosity? Serious question.  Lots of personal views and philosophies of men encountered in those halls.

[SwedishLDS]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

How did you get through college out of curiosity? Serious question.  Lots of personal views and philosophies of men encountered in those halls.

Well, I was being hyperbolic. I have encountered tons of situations a million times worse than this. I have encountered things like this my entire life. I was just being a little whiny,

I’m not an idiot, I understand the merit of academic study and evaluation of complex ideas and turning and twisting them while separating them from common norm and the suspension of personal beliefs.

You see stuff like this your entire life in Sweden. Not saying I don’t like it here though, but when it comes to religion people aren’t the most friendly nor open, and I have been treated as if I am naive and stupid because I am religious my whole life.

Edited March 20, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

How did you get through college out of curiosity? Serious question.  Lots of personal views and philosophies of men encountered in those halls.

But Church members have the right to expect better of BYU than the incident in question. Pushing one’s own quirky, neo-racism in a lecture is one thing; compelling students to parrot it in a homework assignment is another. 
 

I think it goes to what Elder Holland warned against in his talk some months ago. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

But Church members have the right to expect better of BYU than the incident in question. 

Who is aggrieved? The students or their parents and grandparents?

[SwedishLDS]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Who is aggrieved? The students or their parents and grandparents?

anyone receiving subpar misinformation from him really. He is obviously spreading baseless disinformation

Edited March 20, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, SwedishLDS said:

anyone receiving subpar misinformation as part of their education from him really. He is obviously spreading baseless disinformation

No, he was sharing a very different take on a story. Misinformation is false information presented as true. This didn’t purport to lay down “the facts” about Joseph’s life.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What I was pointing out is that at BYU you don't find groups of students shouting down expressions of a variety of points of view -- thus preventing free speech.

Which is likely in part because the honor code prevents (on pain of expulsion) student demonstrations. “Thus preventing free speech”?

 

ETA: I think that many universities do have an issue here.  Students should be allowed to demonstrate but not disrupt. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, SwedishLDS said:

anyone receiving subpar misinformation as part of their education from him really. He is obviously spreading baseless disinformation

Which professor are you now talking about?

You were responding to Scott, who was responding to the whiteness exercise, so I am guessing you were talking about the exercise assigned by the professor, Jane Lopez.  Since you appeared to assume she was a he, if this was the class you were labeling as subpar, baseless, dis/misinformation, it seems to me you weren’t paying that much attention to the information provided, which is not the best way to make a fair and accurate judgment of something. 

However, perhaps you are not really responding to Scott because you refer to false doctrine…which sounds more like a religion class…and I don’t see doctrine in the assignment, but only in the complaint and not exactly false…a statement from the Church that white supremacy in any form is not compatible with the Gospel.

However Tom was not teaching at BYU in the podcast nor was this a church owned podcast. Do we have anything indicating he is sharing this on campus with students?

Quote

the philosophy of men mingled with scripture

Which professor are you referring to here?  The Whiteness exercise has no scripture reference, so perhaps Brother Wayment’s?  But we have no knowledge that this is anything but a non university related podcast like many others are producing to share ideas, so unless he assigned watching it as an assignment…which is unlikely Imo…it has nothing to do with someone’s expectations of what they deserve from their education at BYU.

And looking at Tom’s bio including classes taught, one class out of ten in the past year appears to have been scripture related (Greek New Testament) and seems unlikely the topic of Joseph of Egypt would have come up. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Calm

[SwedishLDS]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, he was sharing a very different take on a story. Misinformation is false information presented as true. This didn’t purport to lay down “the facts” about Joseph’s life.

he is still spreading it nonetheless, and who knows how many will take it as truth. Whether he be the source or a carrier.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, SwedishLDS said:

he is still spreading it nonetheless, and who knows how many will take it as truth. Whether he be the source or a carrier.

If the students are incapable of discerning between an abnormal take on a story and history they shouldn’t be in a university at all.

That would put them in the same intellectual league as the dimwits who saw Hamilton and smugly it as proof that America definitely was never racist as Thomas Jefferson was black.

[Scott Lloyd]

34 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Who is aggrieved? The students or their parents and grandparents?

Does it matter? The parents and grandparents are in most cases helping fund the tuition and in every case helping subsidize the university through their tithing. 

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Does it matter? The parents and grandparents are in most cases helping fund the tuition and in every case helping subsidize the university through their tithing. 

I thought we were supposed to assume tithing was God’s money and we have no ownership or say in how it is used and God can do whatever He wants with it even if God just wants to burn it? Now donating suddenly gives members a say in its use?

Huh…….what changed?