Robert F. Smith Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Expulsion https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2022/03/04/year-after-rainbow-y/ Sounds like the BYU administration (and maybe the Board of Trustees) doesn't like the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution -- which I have heard is inspired by God. As though peaceful assembly is a gargantuan threat. 1
Tacenda Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Sounds like the BYU administration (and maybe the Board of Trustees) doesn't like the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution -- which I have heard is inspired by God. As though peaceful assembly is a gargantuan threat. Pretty sad.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 42 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Thank God for my faithful professors at BYU who didn't present opposing points of view in their classrooms. I was soooo much better prepared for them when I encountered them later on because of that. Did they give you homework assignments forcing you to embrace said points of view? I don’t think anyone here has a problem with exposing students to such views in a lecture. Do you honestly not grasp the distinction?
The Nehor Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 32 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: You obviously have no idea what you are saying, Nehor. You ought to stick to something you know, like humor. “If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.” -Sartre
jerryp48 Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 Clearly using a modern woke lens to view scripture. If at all true it diminishes the story of Joseph with Potiphar’s wife.
The Nehor Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 7 minutes ago, jerryp48 said: Clearly using a modern woke lens to view scripture. If at all true it diminishes the story of Joseph with Potiphar’s wife. No one is arguing it is true.
jerryp48 Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: No one is arguing it is true. With good reason. Pretty hard to inject that position into the text with such limited information. Makes one wonder why even go there. I guess extreme extrapolation can be fun. 1
Popular Post california boy Posted March 20, 2022 Popular Post Posted March 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Did they give you homework assignments forcing you to embrace said points of view? I don’t think anyone here has a problem with exposing students to such views in a lecture. Do you honestly not grasp the distinction? Sometimes the best way to understand a point of view that you don't embrace is to write a paper from that very point of view that you don't like. It helps build empathy and understanding. Often debate teams are asked to argue a point of view by the flip of a coin. There is nothing more valuable than educating yourself enough on an idea in order to understand more fully what the opposite side is facing. University should especially be a place of learning, not regurgitation of ideas you had before entering enrollment. That doesn't make it threatening. It makes it stronger. 5
california boy Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: You obviously have no idea what you are saying, Nehor. You ought to stick to something you know, like humor. Robert, I personally would love to hear what you believe CRT is and why you feel it is so harmful. Yeah this is exactly what I am talking about. Learning what the other side thinks and try to understand their position better. I don't fully understand why people are so upset about CRT.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 7 minutes ago, california boy said: Sometimes the best way to understand a point of view that you don't embrace is to write a paper from that very point of view that you don't like. It helps build empathy and understanding. Often debate teams are asked to argue a point of view by the flip of a coin. There is nothing more valuable than educating yourself enough on an idea in order to understand more fully what the opposite side is facing. University should especially be a place of learning, not regurgitation of ideas you had before entering enrollment. That doesn't make it threatening. It makes it stronger. I don’t think this is the same thing. I understand preparing a set of theoretical arguments to counter one’s own viewpoint. Most any intelligent person can do that. But this assignment apparently involved inventing out of whole cloth indications of a supposed phenomenon that some of us believe is pure fancy. My integrity would render me unable to accomplish what the instructor demanded, and if I couldn’t persuade her to excuse me from it or to assign me something in lieu thereof, I would have to take a zero.
jerryp48 Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 7 minutes ago, california boy said: Robert, I personally would love to hear what you believe CRT is and why you feel it is so harmful. Yeah this is exactly what I am talking about. Learning what the other side thinks and try to understand their position better. I don't fully understand why people are so upset about CRT. Because we spent centuries eradicating racism and discrimination and CRT brings it back. It ignores individualism and promotes a person’s immutable physical characteristics as their most important identity. It promotes tribalism and group-think. It’s extremely pessimistic and it’s critical nature means there really is no end to the criticism even when systems are destroyed and rebuilding can start from the rubble. Its end is perpetual revolution, not utopia. It denies anything good could have come from the founders because of their supposed white supremacy. I could go on. 2
Ragerunner Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 The Prophet has stated “We likewise call on government, business and educational leaders at every level to review processes, laws and organizational attitudes regarding racism and root them out once and for all.” Honest question for those opposed to CRT, now a buzz word for not wanting ‘uncomfortable’ racism discussions/history in our educational system. How should we root out racism in our society if we try and bury it by not openly discussing the past and present history of racism in US in our educational system? This seems counter productive to rooting it out once and for all. 2
jerryp48 Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, Ragerunner said: The Prophet has stated “We likewise call on government, business and educational leaders at every level to review processes, laws and organizational attitudes regarding racism and root them out once and for all.” Honest question for those opposed to CRT, now a buzz word for not wanting ‘uncomfortable’ racism discussions/history in our educational system. How should we root out racism in our society if we try and bury it by not openly discussing the past and present history of racism in US in our educational system? This seems counter productive to rooting it out once and for all. You don’t fight racism with racism. 2
Ragerunner Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, jerryp48 said: Because we spent centuries eradicating racism and discrimination and CRT brings it back. It ignores individualism and promotes a person’s immutable physical characteristics as their most important identity. It promotes tribalism and group-think. It’s extremely pessimistic and it’s critical nature means there really is no end to the criticism even when systems are destroyed and rebuilding can start from the rubble. Its end is perpetual revolution, not utopia. It denies anything good could have come from the founders because of their supposed white supremacy. I could go on. I think the Prophet would not be asking use to take a stand and actively root out racism once an for all in our government/businesses/education, if we had already successfully eradicated it from our society already. Edited March 20, 2022 by Ragerunner 2
Ragerunner Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, jerryp48 said: You don’t fight racism with racism. Discussing/acknowledging current and past racism in the US isn’t racism. It’s called educating ourselves in an effort to not continue repeating the evil/sin in the future. Edited March 20, 2022 by Ragerunner
jerryp48 Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 6 minutes ago, Ragerunner said: I think the Prophet would not be asking use to take a stand and actively root out racism once a for all in our government/businesses/education, if we had already successfully eradicated it from our society already. Don’t obfuscate the prophets counsel as an endorsement of racism against supposed oppressors. 2
Derl Sanderson Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 I can't help wondering what the reaction would be if someone with Wayment's position, platform, and audience were to describe, say, Sharon Eubank as a "hottie." 1
Ragerunner Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 3 minutes ago, jerryp48 said: Don’t obfuscate the prophets counsel as an endorsement of racism against supposed oppressors. I think he has been very clear (multiple times) it still exists in our society and even among some members and it needs to stop once and for all. Period. Sorry if this rocks your boat.
jerryp48 Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 9 minutes ago, Ragerunner said: Discussing/acknowledge current and past racism is the US isn’t racism. It’s called educating ourselves in an effort to not continue repeating the evil/sin in the future. When in your lifetime have we ever not discussed and acknowledged past racism? Do you know anyone that has never heard of our slave-holding past and Jim Crow laws? Thats not what CRT teaches. It teaches that our founding is irredeemably broken and must be torn down and thrown out. That reform is impossible. It teaches that racism is as common as the air we breath and if you deny being a racist that just proves your are one 2
Ragerunner Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, jerryp48 said: When in your lifetime have we ever not discussed and acknowledged past racism? Do you know anyone that has never heard of our slave-holding past and Jim Crow laws? Thats not what CRT teaches. It teaches that our founding is irredeemably broken and must be torn down and thrown out. That reform is impossible. It teaches that racism is as common as the air we breath and if you deny being a racist that just proves your are one If you look at my first statement I discuss how opposition to CRT has now morphed into efforts to not discuss racial issues that make someone feel ‘uncomfortable’. With many States and certain political leaders rushing to stop educating America’s on our racial history past and present. THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS! Very much in line with your statement that we have eradicated racism and discrimination so why keep being it up? Because it still exists and that is why the Prophet keeps ‘bring it up’ and asking us to actively ‘fight’ to stop it once and for all. Edited March 20, 2022 by Ragerunner 1
jerryp48 Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Ragerunner said: If you look at my first statement I discuss how opposition to CRT has now morphed into efforts to not discuss racial issues that make someone feel ‘uncomfortable’. With many States and certain political leaders rushing to stop educating America’s on our racial history past and present. THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS! Very much in line with your statement that we have eradicated racism and discrimination so why keep being it up? Because it still exists and that is why the Prophet keeps ‘bring it up’ and asking us active ‘fight’ to stop it once and for all. First the prophet does not “keep bringing it up”. I sustain his counsel. He’s is not endorsing CRT. CRT does not align with MLK’s vision that we judge another by their character instead of their skin color. In fact just the opposite. It promotes judgement by skin color. It categorizes people into groups instead of seeing each other as children of God and individuals. I don’t know of anyone that promotes the white washing of history or teaching that racism doesn’t exist. I am saying that we have largely overcome our racist past which is not to deny that there are racists. The Unites States is the least racist county by the data. We are the one of the most diverse counties and are more welcoming to others of unlike ethnicities. Does that mean we don’t have to be constantly on guard? No. However, CRT is not a tool against racism. It promotes it. It teaches that the tree was rotten from the roots and must be uprooted. It teaches that its not a question of if racism informed our founders and laws but how. It teaches that life can be reduced to oppressors and oppressed and all laws are designed to uphold the interests of the oppressors. It is not at all about loving one another which is what should be taught. Edited March 20, 2022 by jerryp48 1
jerryp48 Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 31 minutes ago, Ragerunner said: If you look at my first statement I discuss how opposition to CRT has now morphed into efforts to not discuss racial issues that make someone feel ‘uncomfortable’. With many States and certain political leaders rushing to stop educating America’s on our racial history past and present. THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS! Very much in line with your statement that we have eradicated racism and discrimination so why keep being it up? Because it still exists and that is why the Prophet keeps ‘bring it up’ and asking us to actively ‘fight’ to stop it once and for all. May I refer you to President Dallin H. Oaks talk here: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks/racism-other-challenges/ Quoting Churchill Quote Of this I am quite sure, that if we open a quarrel between the past and the present, we shall find that we have lost the future. The CRT proponents when they’re not revising history they highlight all the failures while ignoring the accomplishments. Even the thousands of lives lost in a bloody civil war do they ignore. They present the past as if it was yesterday while erasing any progress in between. 2
Ragerunner Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 29 minutes ago, jerryp48 said: First the prophet does not “keep bringing it up”. I sustain his counsel. He’s is not endorsing CRT. I don’t know of anyone that promotes the white washing of history or teaching that racism doesn’t exits. 1. He has brought it up many times Nelson - https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/joint-statement-first-presidency-naacp-national-leadership https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2020-06-01/president-nelson-addresses-race-in-social-media-post-185657 https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2020-10-04/general-conference-october-2020-sunday-morning-session-president-nelson-race-prejudice-equality-194725 https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireStory/mormons-hold-conference-virtually-straight-time-76853307 https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-naacp-shared-vision https://apnews.com/article/race-and-ethnicity-coronavirus-pandemic-1122b62368dbabb8b0ae3b1499220b95 2. Never said he endorses CRT. I have no idea his view on CRT and neither do you. Because he has not directly addressed it. But we have plenty of information that he strongly opposes racism and has asked us to root it out of our society/church once and for all. 3. There are numerous State laws that have recently been passed or being introduced to eliminate discussions in our educational system on any items (particularly racism) that make someone ‘uncomfortable’. White washing is very much alive.
Tacenda Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) deleted Edited March 20, 2022 by Tacenda
bsjkki Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: I guess I thought CRT was made up to get rid of schools teaching about slaves, civil rights etc. ? This is not at all accurate from either viewpoint.
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