Is the "Mormon" label fading?

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Sister Nelson said that President Nelson and the leading quorums are working on a 50-100 year plan for the Church.

It’s strange to think about, but they are not going to live to see the fruits of their labors

Aww, this is what they said 150 years ago.  Oops, read that wrong, haha. Thinking it said the world will end in 50-100 years. Brain dead, or very tired.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Tacenda

[JLHPROF]

57 minutes ago, rongo said:

I've noticed this as well. All of the talk about "hastening" five or so years ago seems to be negated by the Church acting like the "winding up scene" events are nowhere on the distant horizon. 

I would include the Ensign Peak and real estate empire investments (high rises in London, etc.). There is nothing wrong with saving for a rainy day and being prepared, but the focus on this doesn't seem like the Brethren believe or are concerned with what past Brethren have said about economic, governmental, and societal collapse in the last days. When those things happen, stock and real estate portfolios will be worthless, and the "rule of law" won't be able to be depended on to defend things like title to land holdings. It seems like "trusting in the arm of flesh" too much. 

If the corporate organization we refer to as the Church still exists in 50-100 years I won't be around to see it, but honestly it would call into question large chunks of the restored gospel.
I mean, the D&C also speaks of an end to all nations - so the idea of a legally constituted Church won't mean much if there's no government to accept that.
(To be clear, I still believe the Church will exist as a membership body with authorized leaders etc.  The legal entity just might not.)

That would include deeds, property holdings, etc.  The Church organization is held together by a large legal and business arm.  It is also held together spiritually.  It will be interesting to see how things might change if spiritually was all that remained.
 

[rongo]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

If the corporate organization we refer to as the Church still exists in 50-100 years I won't be around to see it, but honestly it would call into question large chunks of the restored gospel.

Just how "latter-day" would Latter-day Saintism be, hundreds of years down the road? 

I do think that the institutional church frowns on anything that smacks of Millenerianism (the end is near) --- probably from not wanting to be seen as akin to or lumped with failed prophecies of the 1800s and 1900s. Those types of talks (we're getting close) haven't been a thing in the Church for quite some time. But it is front and center in the Church's official name. 

While no man knows the exact timing, it does appear that the parable of the fig leaves -type things are accelerating ("beginning of sorrows" in Greek is "beginning of birth pains," which I find to be striking. You don't know exactly when the baby will be born, but you do know when the contractions become closer together and stronger that the time is drawing near). 

I see many of President Nelson's changes as attempts to make the Church less "weird" to people (insiders and outsiders), as he perceives it. Focusing on end times would be anathema to that. Even things like "hastening the work" or "gathering Israel on both sides of the veil" seem to have a "word meaning" and a "practical meaning." Temple work stopped altogether for almost two years, and like church, is struggling to get its legs again. The "hastening" ballyhoo of several years ago was more of a catch phrase than anything else (missionary phones being called "hastening devices" by general authorities, for example), without the urgency the phrase suggests. 

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, rongo said:

Just how "latter-day" would Latter-day Saintism be, hundreds of years down the road? 

I do think that the institutional church frowns on anything that smacks of Millenerianism (the end is near) --- probably from not wanting to be seen as akin to or lumped with failed prophecies of the 1800s and 1900s. Those types of talks (we're getting close) haven't been a thing in the Church for quite some time. But it is front and center in the Church's official name. 

While no man knows the exact timing, it does appear that the parable of the fig leaves -type things are accelerating ("beginning of sorrows" in Greek is "beginning of birth pains," which I find to be striking. You don't know exactly when the baby will be born, but you do know when the contractions become closer together and stronger that the time is drawing near). 

I see many of President Nelson's changes as attempts to make the Church less "weird" to people (insiders and outsiders), as he perceives it. Focusing on end times would be anathema to that. Even things like "hastening the work" or "gathering Israel on both sides of the veil" seem to have a "word meaning" and a "practical meaning." Temple work stopped altogether for almost two years, and like church, is struggling to get its legs again. The "hastening" ballyhoo of several years ago was more of a catch phrase than anything else (missionary phones being called "hastening devices" by general authorities, for example), without the urgency the phrase suggests. 

I'm wondering about the bolded statement.  I know that we've been able to go to the temple since last summer.  I think other places were open earlier than that (but I'm not sure by how much).  I don't think it's accurate to say that temple work stopped altogether for almost two years, but I don't remember for how long it actually was stopped.  And was it ever stopped completely?  I don't remember that either.

[rongo]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm wondering about the bolded statement.  I know that we've been able to go to the temple since last summer.  I think other places were open earlier than that (but I'm not sure by how much).  I don't think it's accurate to say that temple work stopped altogether for almost two years, but I don't remember for how long it actually was stopped.  And was it ever stopped completely?  I don't remember that either.

There was extremely limited live ordinances only for the bulk of it. "Phase 3" had been around for a long time, but it was a nightmare (appointments months out). Some trickle of temple work was done for the dead under phases 2 and 3, but not very much (especially compared to before). It's hard to instill a sense of urgency for "gathering Israel on that side of the veil" when it's that way. 

Now that most are in "phase 4," I think temple ordinances are way down. There has been a tangible hit to commitment, habit, and enthusiasm --- akin to weekly church services. I think/hope that this experience will be in mind when something like this happens again. There are real costs in society, schools, businesses, churches, etc. when there are severe and lasting disruptions, and the "new normals" are unsatisfactory in a lot of ways. 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

There was extremely limited live ordinances only for the bulk of it. "Phase 3" had been around for a long time, but it was a nightmare (appointments months out). Some trickle of temple work was done for the dead under phases 2 and 3, but not very much (especially compared to before). It's hard to instill a sense of urgency for "gathering Israel on that side of the veil" when it's that way. 

Now that most are in "phase 4," I think temple ordinances are way down. There has been a tangible hit to commitment, habit, and enthusiasm --- akin to weekly church services. I think/hope that this experience will be in mind when something like this happens again. There are real costs in society, schools, businesses, churches, etc. when there are severe and lasting disruptions, and the "new normals" are unsatisfactory in a lot of ways. 

I agree with all of that.  I just didn't think that "stopped altogether for almost 2 years" made sense.  

I don't think the 'new normal' will last very long though.  The old normal will be back eventually for most things (not for everything of course).

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, rongo said:

Just how "latter-day" would Latter-day Saintism be, hundreds of years down the road? 

Not very.  And contrary to many prophecies and scriptures.

6 hours ago, rongo said:

I do think that the institutional church frowns on anything that smacks of Millenerianism (the end is near) --- probably from not wanting to be seen as akin to or lumped with failed prophecies of the 1800s and 1900s. Those types of talks (we're getting close) haven't been a thing in the Church for quite some time. But it is front and center in the Church's official name. 

While no man knows the exact timing, it does appear that the parable of the fig leaves -type things are accelerating. 

I consider attempts to make the Church less weird one of the sure signs things are accelerating.  Can't set us back in order until we get way out of order.  Our concern with image makes sense when we're selling ourselves (missionary work) but less sense every time something from God is changed or dropped to do it.

But my faith things will work out soon remains.  We have a scriptural time limit and God's promise.  I personally am excited to see the return of our weirdness.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I consider attempts to make the Church less weird one of the sure signs things are accelerating.  Can't set us back in order until we get way out of order.  Our concern with image makes sense when we're selling ourselves (missionary work) but less sense every time something from God is changed or dropped to do it.

But my faith things will work out soon remains.  We have a scriptural time limit and God's promise.  I personally am excited to see the return of our weirdness.

We are very much like this in our home. We aren't leaving the Church, don't support any splinter groups, but stay true to things that have changed that we feel shouldn't have. By "stay true," I mean we teach our kids "the lay of the land" (what used to be in the temple, etc.). We keep the fire of faith burning in the altars of our hearts and hearths, and we're not worried about the Church losing its way. Like you, we believe God will correct things in time that need to be corrected. 

It's refreshing for many people, too. There are a lot of active, attending people who have been disturbed by some/many of the changes, but are sticking with the Church (as they should). It's comforting to them when they know that there are other knowledgeable believers in the same boat. 

It's more important than ever before to have our own oil in our own lamps

[JLHPROF]

29 minutes ago, rongo said:

We are very much like this in our home. We aren't leaving the Church, don't support any splinter groups, but stay true to things that have changed that we feel shouldn't have. By "stay true," I mean we teach our kids "the lay of the land" (what used to be in the temple, etc.). We keep the fire of faith burning in the altars of our hearts and hearths, and we're not worried about the Church losing its way. Like you, we believe God will correct things in time that need to be corrected. 

It's refreshing for many people, too. There are a lot of active, attending people who have been disturbed by some/many of the changes, but are sticking with the Church (as they should). It's comforting to them when they know that there are other knowledgeable believers in the same boat. 

It's more important than ever before to have our own oil in our own lamps

I appreciate your posts more than you know and I greatly respect your approach.  We should all live to the light we've found in the gospel, no matter how dim others may attempt to make it.  Your perspective on the temple matches mine, your patience in waiting on the Lord surpasses me.

And when my children are old enough to be endowed I will follow your example.  I'll sit them down, I'll teach them everything that has been removed, why it matters, and the true purposes of the endowment.  And we will wait on the Lord together.

Edited March 26, 2022 by JLHPROF

[bcuzbcuz]

On a recent TV quiz show, here in Sweden, four contestants, all of whom work in music, theatre, news coverage or film, were asked to identify which group identified as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

One answered, Children of God.

One chose Scientology

Two answered, Jehovah Witness.

The answer was given as ”the Mormons”

 

My thought was that the church has not done well in public relations regarding product identification here in Sweden. 

[Avatar4321]

On 3/25/2022 at 7:12 AM, JLHPROF said:

It's stranger to think the prophet isn't expecting the millennial reign to start before the end of the next century.  Maybe they should just decanonize D&C 77.

Or change the name of the Church to reflect the "not so latter days".

What makes you think they aren’t planning for the millennial reign?

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

What makes you think they aren’t planning for the millennial reign?

They probably are.  The issue was whether they think they have another century to prepare.

[CA Steve]

On 3/25/2022 at 3:18 PM, rongo said:

Just how "latter-day" would Latter-day Saintism be, hundreds of years down the road? 

Depending on what one considers the starting date for the restoration (Smith's birth, sacred grove, obtaining the plates, printing the BoM, or ?) Latter-day Saintism is already hundreds of years down the road, or nearly so.

Some Biblical scholars believe that Christ's original message was one of the immanent rise of a new order, one that He or his followers would see in their own lifetime. Two hundred years latter His followers had been forced to repurpose His message, similar to what has been going on in the Mormon church the last hundred years or so.

What we need is another good ole cold war with Russia or China like we had in the 50's and 60's. Then Mormon leadership can go back to calling for a year's supply of food, members building bunkers in their back yard and collecting all sorts weapons and ammo. Ahhh the good old days.

 

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

They probably are.  The issue was whether they think they have another century to prepare.

What make you think that when it was said 50-100 years that didn’t possibly include the transition into and the beginning of the millennium in their plans?

[rongo]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

What make you think that when it was said 50-100 years that didn’t possibly include the transition into and the beginning of the millennium in their plans?

Because they're not acting that way. What in the Church's planning or activities seems like it's gearing up for a transition into the Millennium? 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, rongo said:

Because they're not acting that way. What in the Church's planning or activities seems like it's gearing up for a transition into the Millennium? 

What would gearing up for a transition into the millennium look like to the outside world?

[rongo]

51 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What would gearing up for a transition into the millennium look like to the outside world?

What would it look like to Church members? Or, would the "gearing up" be completely in secret among upper leadership, and then suddenly announced at some point?

The reliance on stock and finance markets that the Church plows its unspent revenue in doesn't indicate gearing up for the Millennium (at least, it doesn't to me). It indicates an expectation that the status quo is going to reign into the indefinite long-term future. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by rongo

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

What would it look like to Church members? Or, would the "gearing up" be completely in secret among upper leadership, and then suddenly announced at some point?

The reliance on stock and finance markets that the Church plows its unspent revenue in doesn't indicate gearing up for the Millennium (at least, it doesn't to me). It indicates an expectation that the status quo is going to reign into the indefinite long-term future. 

It's hard to say which parts of societal status quo will remain once the Lord makes an end to all nations and reigns personally.

But I'm betting that financial market investments won't mean much.  Property holdings might - like the chunk of Florida the Church owns.

I do believe their investments in food stores, property, etc are preparations against that time.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, rongo said:

Because they're not acting that way. What in the Church's planning or activities seems like it's gearing up for a transition into the Millennium? 

Building temples across the world for Saints to not only have access to get their ordinances done, but using them as gathering places when needed perhaps.  Building up a massive humanitarian arm, building up properties that can be used to produce food or provide homes.  Building up some hefty finances so that if/when it is time to become publicly active in efforts, they can go all in with building or purchasing needed materials that they lack.  Preparing Saints to be able to study and live the Gospel on their own in case they are cut off from the main church body, so they are less likely to go adrift.  Prepare a more self sufficient people by helping them with education and training right now and especially out of debt.
 

When closer, I expect there will be more self sufficiency programs including beefing up home storage.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Calm

[rongo]

40 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It's hard to say which parts of societal status quo will remain once the Lord makes an end to all nations and reigns personally.

But I'm betting that financial market investments won't mean much.  Property holdings might - like the chunk of Florida the Church owns.

Only if society (or what remains) recognizes the "paper rights" in deeds and titles to be valid. If what emerges doesn't, then having title won't mean anything either. Rights would have to be asserted and defended, because there wouldn't be (or would be a different) rule of law.

41 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I do believe their investments in food stores, property, etc are preparations against that time.

I agree as to the ranches and farms for the canneries. I think that increasingly they are simply cash investments, not necessarily primarily intended for self-reliance. The number of canneries in operation now is a fraction of what there used to be. 

Food storage at the family level has been completely de-emphasized. I think the family level is more important than the meta - institutional level. 

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

What would it look like to Church members? Or, would the "gearing up" be completely in secret among upper leadership, and then suddenly announced at some point?

The reliance on stock and finance markets that the Church plows its unspent revenue in doesn't indicate gearing up for the Millennium (at least, it doesn't to me). It indicates an expectation that the status quo is going to reign into the indefinite long-term future. 

Maybe.

It kind of depends on how whether or not the reliance on stocks and finance goes on too long, but none of us can judge at what point that would be.  It is interesting that the church is trying to keep temples closer to its members.  I heard someone say (was it on here?  I don't remember) that the goal was to get temples within 2 hours of every member. Obviously in some places that is a long shot goal but it looks like we are already seeing it's fulfillment in others.

My parents live in rural northern wyoming and when all of the currently announced temples are completely, they will be from 30 minutes to 3 hours from 3 different temples.  Before multiple new temples were announced, they were already within 90 minutes of one.  So the new ones represent quite an increase in temples in their (again, rural) area.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, rongo said:

Food storage at the family level has been completely de-emphasized.

As clearly demonstrated in all the self-reliance courses that address this topic and also this website: https://providentliving.churchofjesuschrist.org/?lang=eng

[Scott Lloyd]

On 3/28/2022 at 3:32 PM, Calm said:

Building temples across the world for Saints to not only have access to get their ordinances done, but using them as gathering places when needed perhaps.

Could you elaborate on the portion about gathering places?

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Could you elaborate on the portion about gathering places?

Not really, just seems logical to me that they might be used as such if there ever was a need.  

Edited March 29, 2022 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

On 3/28/2022 at 3:32 PM, rongo said:

 

Food storage at the family level has been completely de-emphasized. I think the family level is more important than the meta - institutional level. 

 

20 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As clearly demonstrated in all the self-reliance courses that address this topic and also this website: https://providentliving.churchofjesuschrist.org/?lang=eng

I don’t see it as food storage being deemphasized so much as it being properly and wisely placed within the general context of personal and family preparedness and self-reliance, of which food storage is only a component. 
 

Too often in the past, food storage has amounted to a waste of good money, as food reserves have been allowed to molder and rot, only to be eventually thrown out when the owners move or die.  
 

Having an emergency cash fund in place — a continual cushion against having to incur debt or dip into retirement investments — has been neglected too often by too many. I believe that for most of us, there is a far more urgent and frequent need for a cash reserve than there is for stored food. 
 

For some, there can be a sort of dark appeal in looking forward to the end of the world, but the fact is we must live and thrive in civilization as it exists and for as long as it lasts until the coming of the Millennium. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Scott Lloyd