BYU Decision to Deny Speech Services to Transgender Clients

[Scott Lloyd]

On 2/12/2022 at 5:10 PM, juliann said:

And let me take this opportunity to chastize those who fall for Biden's stuttering excuses. He doesn't qualify as a stutterer from any direction, there are assessment techniques and it requires a certain percentage of dysfluencies which is a bizillion times more than he ever did.  If he had trouble at all (and I've heard no corroboration at all) it was likely very normal developmental stuttering which goes away on it's own. Shame on him for telling those with honest to goodness dysfluency problems that they can get over it by reading poetry. That is a total jerk move. 

I can corroborate this. I clearly recall having rather severe stuttering during the first few grades of elementary school, so much so that I was required to have sessions with a speech therapist. And it did go away on its own by the time I reached the upper grades, with no focused effort on my part, today or at any time in the past. 
 

Years later, I had occasion to hear my voice on a tape recording our family made to send to my aunt in California. It reminded me just how bad my stuttering had been and how totally I had recovered. Apparently, I had the “developmental stuttering” you refer to here. 
 

My nephew had the same problem in early childhood; he gives motivational speeches today with no hint of a background of childhood stuttering. 
 

As for me, I just got a part-time gig as the reading clerk for the Utah State Senate, and I get daily compliments with people telling me I sound like I should be on the radio or recording Audible books. 
 

[juliann]

On 2/14/2022 at 6:02 PM, MiserereNobis said:

What did you think of the movie "The King's Speech" (if you saw it)? I really enjoyed it, but I'm not sure how accurate it was as far as stuttering is concerned, and if it dealt with the issue appropriately.

I loved the movie but it has been so long I don't remember much. There were some methods used we don't use today but I thought it was a realistic enough presentation. 

[juliann]

On 2/16/2022 at 4:36 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

I can corroborate this. I clearly recall having rather severe stuttering during the first few grades of elementary school, so much so that I was required to have sessions with a speech therapist. And it did go away on its own by the time I reached the upper grades, with no focused effort on my part, today or at any time in the past. 
 

Years later, I had occasion to hear my voice on a tape recording our family made to send to my aunt in California. It reminded me just how bad my stuttering had been and how totally I had recovered. Apparently, I had the “developmental stuttering” you refer to here. 
 

My nephew had the same problem in early childhood; he gives motivational speeches today with no hint of a background of childhood stuttering. 
 

As for me, I just got a part-time gig as the reading clerk for the Utah State Senate, and I get daily compliments with people telling me I sound like I should be on the radio or recording Audible books. 
 

Thanks for sharing this. I'm sure neither of you go around calling yourself a stutterer, either. 

[Tacenda]

On 2/16/2022 at 2:36 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

I can corroborate this. I clearly recall having rather severe stuttering during the first few grades of elementary school, so much so that I was required to have sessions with a speech therapist. And it did go away on its own by the time I reached the upper grades, with no focused effort on my part, today or at any time in the past. 
 

Years later, I had occasion to hear my voice on a tape recording our family made to send to my aunt in California. It reminded me just how bad my stuttering had been and how totally I had recovered. Apparently, I had the “developmental stuttering” you refer to here. 
 

My nephew had the same problem in early childhood; he gives motivational speeches today with no hint of a background of childhood stuttering. 
 

As for me, I just got a part-time gig as the reading clerk for the Utah State Senate, and I get daily compliments with people telling me I sound like I should be on the radio or recording Audible books. 
 

That's exciting to be able to be in on what happens with the Utah State Senate! 

Sidenote: Pres Biden has a stuttering problem, and often he's not able to get the words out correctly. Surely, you would be empathetic to this problem. Love how you were able to overcome that. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

22 hours ago, Tacenda said:

That's exciting to be able to be in on what happens with the Utah State Senate! 

Sidenote: Pres Biden has a stuttering problem, and often he's not able to get the words out correctly. Surely, you would be empathetic to this problem. Love how you were able to overcome that. 

I agree with what Juliann has posted here regarding Biden’s supposed stuttering problem. 
 

Added later: And I didn’t “overcome” stuttering. I grew out of it. Most stutterers do — about 75 to 80 percent, according to this online source:

https://www.nationwidechildrens.org/family-resources-education/700childrens/2014/10/stuttering-will-my-child-outgrow-it

That’s rather my point, in the context of what Juliann posted. 

If Biden has a problem, it’s not stuttering but cognitive impairment, possibly to some degree age related. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Kenngo1969]

Some of us have genuine stuttering problems ... some of us are simply inarticulate fools.

[Thinking]

On 2/12/2022 at 8:01 AM, Stormin' Mormon said:

So, my question is: should a church, any church, be required to provide services that run counter to its own doctrine? 

If said church doesn't want to provide services that run counter to its own doctrine, then is shouldn't be a member of an organization that has some services that run counter to its own doctrine.

[Stormin' Mormon]

12 hours ago, Thinking said:

If said church doesn't want to provide services that run counter to its own doctrine, then is shouldn't be a member of an organization that has some services that run counter to its own doctrine.

That's the kind of thinking that lead the city of Philadelphia to try and kick Catholic charities out of the adoption business. The city reasoned that if the charities in question didn't want to provide services to same sex couples, they wouldn't be allowed to provide any adoption services at all.

Many neutral observers noted that the city was cutting off its nose to spite its face. Do we really want to deny society of all the good a church CAN do just because it won't do all the good you think it SHOULD do? 

Luckily, in the Philadelphia case the Supreme Court stepped in and said: nu-huh.

[Thinking]

2 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

That's the kind of thinking that lead the city of Philadelphia to try and kick Catholic charities out of the adoption business. The city reasoned that if the charities in question didn't want to provide services to same sex couples, they wouldn't be allowed to provide any adoption services at all.

Many neutral observers noted that the city was cutting off its nose to spite its face. Do we really want to deny society of all the good a church CAN do just because it won't do all the good you think it SHOULD do? 

Luckily, in the Philadelphia case the Supreme Court stepped in and said: nu-huh.

Was Catholic Charities part of an organization that provided services to same-sex couples, or was Catholic Charities its own organization?

[juliann]

22 hours ago, Tacenda said:

That's exciting to be able to be in on what happens with the Utah State Senate! 

Sidenote: Pres Biden has a stuttering problem, and often he's not able to get the words out correctly. Surely, you would be empathetic to this problem. Love how you were able to overcome that. 

CFR

1. How do you score his disorder on, say, the SSI-4? Or did you use another evaluation tool? 
2. Please produce any corroberation  of him ever having a stuttering problem at all aside from his own tales. I'm willing to go with developmental childhood stuttering...but he hasn't even corroborated that. 

 

You should be ashamed of yourself. All empathy should go to those who actually suffer from this disorder, not to those who cynically exploit other's trials to cover their mistakes. I take it you believe all of his other tall tales? (And this isn't political bias, Trump was bad, too, but we have to deal with the latest liar for now.)

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, juliann said:

CFR

1. How do you score his disorder on, say, the SSI-4? Or did you use another evaluation tool? 
2. Please produce any corroberation  of him ever having a stuttering problem at all aside from his own tales. I'm willing to go with developmental childhood stuttering...but he hasn't even corroborated that. 

 

You should be ashamed of yourself. All empathy should go to those who actually suffer from this disorder, not to those who cynically exploit other's trials to cover their mistakes. I take it you believe all of his other tall tales? (And this isn't political bias, Trump was bad, too, but we have to deal with the latest liar for now.)

You've got to be kidding me...

Maybe you can call his friend and ask him if it's true. BTW, I'm not ashamed at all, not one teeny tiny bit that I have empathy for him and others. My sister in law is a stutterer and she stutters a bit differently. She will elongate the words to avoid the stutter and will hold out for however long it can last to avoid it. 

 https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/joe-biden-stutter-profile/602401/

 

“Hopefully he wasn’t hurt by it.” Bob Markel, another high-school buddy of Biden’s, went a little further when we spoke: “ ‘H-H-H-H-Hey, J-J-J-J-J-Joe B-B-B-B-Biden’—that’s how he’d be addressed.” Markel said the Archmere guys called him “Stutterhead,” or “Hey, Stut !” for short. He fears that he himself may have made fun of Biden once or twice. “I never remember him being offended. He probably was,” Markel said. “I think one of his coping mechanisms was to not show it.” Bowden and Markel have remained friends with Biden to this day."

Edited February 20, 2022 by Tacenda

[juliann]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

You've got to be kidding me...

Maybe you can call his friend and ask him if it's true. BTW, I'm not ashamed at all, not one teeny tiny bit that I have empathy for him and others. My sister in law is a stutterer and she stutters a bit differently. She will elongate the words to void the stutter and will hold out for however long it can last to avoid it. 

 https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/joe-biden-stutter-profile/602401/

 

“Hopefully he wasn’t hurt by it.” Bob Markel, another high-school buddy of Biden’s, went a little further when we spoke: “ ‘H-H-H-H-Hey, J-J-J-J-J-Joe B-B-B-B-Biden’—that’s how he’d be addressed.” Markel said the Archmere guys called him “Stutterhead,” or “Hey, Stut !” for short. He fears that he himself may have made fun of Biden once or twice. “I never remember him being offended. He probably was,” Markel said. “I think one of his coping mechanisms was to not show it.” Bowden and Markel have remained friends with Biden to this day."

And that is the only witness in that entire article. It is about stuttering more than Biden. You also miss the irony of including a description of an actual stuttering behavior when describing someone who does, indeed, stutter. 

Quote

Biden says he hasn’t felt himself caught in a traditional stutter in several decades.

Are you aware that normal dysfluency is a thing?

One more time, what fluency assessment are you using to diagnose him as a stutterer?

Edited February 20, 2022 by juliann

[Rain]

50 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You've got to be kidding me...

Maybe you can call his friend and ask him if it's true. BTW, I'm not ashamed at all, not one teeny tiny bit that I have empathy for him and others.

She's not saying to not have empathy for stutterers.  She is saying that as a trained speech pathologist (right term?), she doesn't see the signs that shows he is now a stutterer. That it must be something else.

50 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My sister in law is a stutterer and she stutters a bit differently. She will elongate the words to avoid the stutter and will hold out for however long it can last to avoid it. 

 https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/joe-biden-stutter-profile/602401/

 

“Hopefully he wasn’t hurt by it.” Bob Markel, another high-school buddy of Biden’s, went a little further when we spoke: “ ‘H-H-H-H-Hey, J-J-J-J-J-Joe B-B-B-B-Biden’—that’s how he’d be addressed.” Markel said the Archmere guys called him “Stutterhead,” or “Hey, Stut !” for short. He fears that he himself may have made fun of Biden once or twice. “I never remember him being offended. He probably was,” Markel said. “I think one of his coping mechanisms was to not show it.” Bowden and Markel have remained friends with Biden to this day."

NOT intended just for Tacenda: But, while this is all related by speech services, Biden and what speech services are off track and a little too close to politics for me. I would suggest we move on.

[mfbukowski]

On 2/13/2022 at 11:41 AM, helix said:

ASHA is shocked the church disapproves of using tithing money to subsidize gender transitioning.  Amazingly, ASHA claims this goes against the church's own handbook. 

Whenever the argument hits "You aren't an authority on your own teachings.  We know your teachings.  Let me tell you what your teachings are."  Then the argument is over. 

 

 

Thanks.

At last I understand what this thread is really about.

[juliann]

26 minutes ago, Rain said:

She's not saying to not have empathy for stutterers.  She is saying that as a trained speech pathologist (right term?), she doesn't see the signs that shows he is now a stutterer. That it must be something else.

NOT intended just for Tacenda: But, while this is all related by speech services, Biden and what speech services are off track and a little too close to politics for me. I would suggest we move on.

Off topic yes, but a good illustration that people make judgments concerning speech/voice disorders without having any background. 

[Tacenda]

56 minutes ago, juliann said:

And that is the only witness in that entire article. It is about stuttering more than Biden. You also miss the irony of including a description of an actual stuttering behavior when describing someone who does, indeed, stutter. 

Are you aware that normal dysfluency is a thing?

One more time, what fluency assessment are you using to diagnose him as a stutterer?

You seem to want to see a different reality which is surprising since you have the internet and can search it. Two articles from The Stuttering Foundation and PBS.

https://www.stutteringhelp.org/content/president-joe-biden

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/bidens-stutter-how-a-childhood-battle-shaped-his-approach-to-life-and-politics/

Edited February 20, 2022 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

Biden has been in politics and the public eye since forever. Are there any video or audio clips that illustrate his chronic stuttering?
 

And I mean stuttering, not the gaffes for which he has become so famous in which he forgets where he is or what happened at what point in time or what he started out to say or can’t read his teleprompter, as in saying “palmist” instead of psalmist (and he supposedly being a religious man). His press secretary is named Jen Psaki. I wonder if he calls her Paki. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

She's not saying to not have empathy for stutterers.  She is saying that as a trained speech pathologist (right term?), she doesn't see the signs that shows he is now a stutterer. That it must be something else.

NOT intended just for Tacenda: But, while this is all related by speech services, Biden and what speech services are off track and a little too close to politics for me. I would suggest we move on.

I'm sorry, I'll quit the dialogue with Juliann. 

[Raingirl]

59 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You seem to want to see a different reality which is surprising since you have the internet and can search it. Two articles from The Stuttering Foundation and PBS.

https://www.stutteringhelp.org/content/president-joe-biden

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/bidens-stutter-how-a-childhood-battle-shaped-his-approach-to-life-and-politics/

You’ve either not read Juliann’s previous posts or are deliberately ignoring them. 
 

Why would someone (Juliann) who is certified in this field need to search the internet for random articles?

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

You’ve either not read Juliann’s previous posts or are deliberately ignoring them. 
 

Why would someone (Juliann) who is certified in this field need to search the internet for random articles?

I didn't know she was certified in this field. But I feel that he isn't lying about his condition and do believe he still deals with it. I read a few articles about it, and it's quite rare to totally cure stuttering.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I didn't know she was certified in this field. But I feel that he isn't lying about his condition and do believe he still deals with it. I read a few articles about it, and it's quite rare to totally cure stuttering.

This is contradicted by the source I cited above, which said that 75 to 80 percent of stutterers simply grow out of it, as I did, with no real effort to “overcome” it. 
 

But I’ll defer to Juliann on this. Juliann, is it true that it’s “quite rare to totally cure stuttering”?

[Tacenda]

50 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is contradicted by the source I cited above, which said that 75 to 80 percent of stutterers simply grow out of it, as I did, with no real effort to “overcome” it. 
 

But I’ll defer to Juliann on this. Juliann, is it true that it’s “quite rare to totally cure stuttering”?

I was reading KSL news online and funny that this article popped up. It didn't state that it's rare that it can be totally cured, but said that 80% of those that stutter when young children can outgrow it, so maybe the article I read earlier wasn't all together correct in assuming it's rare. 

https://www.ksl.com/article/50352262/unraveling-the-biology-of-a-mysterious-condition-stuttering

[juliann]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is contradicted by the source I cited above, which said that 75 to 80 percent of stutterers simply grow out of it, as I did, with no real effort to “overcome” it. 
 

But I’ll defer to Juliann on this. Juliann, is it true that it’s “quite rare to totally cure stuttering”?

If it is a bona fide fluency disorder, it can be managed but likely not "cured."  Developmental dysfluency is not considered a disorder. I've known two teens who had displays of Tourettes behaviors that "outgrew" it, as well. It is very worrisome when you are in the middle of it. 

Tacenda, as I said, I'm a speech and language specialist. With a Masters degree and required credentials, plus 30 years in the field. So if you want to post articles, make sure they are from professional journals. And the next time you want to diagnose a speech disorder, CFR with the diagnostic tools. Good grief. 

Back to trans voice therapy, it is likely going to be a niche service area much like has developed for accent reduction. For anyone wanting to change a healthy natural voice, I would make sure the therapist had vast experience in voice disorders. 

[Raingirl]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I didn't know she was certified in this field. But I feel that he isn't lying about his condition and do believe he still deals with it. I read a few articles about it, and it's quite rare to totally cure stuttering.

So you reading a few articles trumps a specialist in the field with decades of experience? Seriously? Juliann has also specifically addressed Biden and “cures”. 

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

So you reading a few articles trumps a specialist in the field with decades of experience? Seriously? Juliann has also specifically addressed Biden and “cures”. 

When I commented on the post about Biden, and replied with the articles I'd read which I think are legitimate. I didn't know Juliann is a speech and language specialist. I had no idea how to supply the needed information she was asking for as far as with the clinical verbiage. I was going by my common sense in believing he has that problem, and from the links I presented, many others do as well, such as The Stuttering Foundation, the KSL news, PBS and many more. 

I believe I honored the CFR in providing links that verify his stuttering condition. And don't believe he lied/lies about it.