BYU Decision to Deny Speech Services to Transgender Clients

[kimpearson]

On 2/19/2022 at 4:33 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

I agree with what Juliann has posted here regarding Biden’s supposed stuttering problem. 
 

Added later: And I didn’t “overcome” stuttering. I grew out of it. Most stutterers do — about 75 to 80 percent, according to this online source:

https://www.nationwidechildrens.org/family-resources-education/700childrens/2014/10/stuttering-will-my-child-outgrow-it

That’s rather my point, in the context of what Juliann posted. 

If Biden has a problem, it’s not stuttering but cognitive impairment, possibly to some degree age related. 

 

7 hours ago, juliann said:

CFR

1. How do you score his disorder on, say, the SSI-4? Or did you use another evaluation tool? 
2. Please produce any corroberation  of him ever having a stuttering problem at all aside from his own tales. I'm willing to go with developmental childhood stuttering...but he hasn't even corroborated that. 

 

You should be ashamed of yourself. All empathy should go to those who actually suffer from this disorder, not to those who cynically exploit other's trials to cover their mistakes. I take it you believe all of his other tall tales? (And this isn't political bias, Trump was bad, too, but we have to deal with the latest liar for now.)

Both of you should be ashamed of yourselves as I just spent 30 minutes trying to find any authoritative statement proposing that President Biden doesn't have a stuttering disorder.  I couldn't find one from an authoritative source.  The only sources to promote this claim are far right sources.  If Juliann is an expert then other experts disagree with her.  Please provide any authoritative statement that Biden doesn't suffer from stuttering other than your own opinion.  Cruelty is accusing someone who suffers from a disability of lying about that disability.

Edited February 21, 2022 by kimpearson

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

 

Both of you should be ashamed of yourselves as I just spent 30 minutes trying to find any authoritative statement proposing that President Biden doesn't have a stuttering disorder.  I couldn't find one from an authoritative source.  The only sources to promote this claim are far right sources.  If Juliann is an expert then other experts disagree with her.  Please provide any authoritative statement that Biden doesn't suffer from stuttering other than your own opinion.  Cruelty is accusing someone who suffers from a disability of lying about that disability.

Can you cite even one quoted statement from Biden himself claiming to have been diagnosed with a bona fide fluency disorder as opposed to developmental stuttering such as I had at age 6 that I promptly grew out of? 
 

The claim has to come from Biden himself, not others trying to make speculative excuses for his gaffes and blunders. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Can you cite even one quoted statement from Biden himself claiming to have been diagnosed with a fluency disorder as opposed to developmental stuttering such as I had at age 6 that I promptly grew out of? 
 

The claim has to come from Biden himself, not others trying to make excuses for his gaffes and blunders. 

I've been following his stuttering commentary since he ran for office, and distinctly remember how articles mentioned how his speech pattern is his way of controlling himself to not stutter. ETA: https://niemanreports.org/articles/biden-stutter/  There's so much corroborating evidence that shows he has had life long problems.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/joe-biden-stutter/

Origin

U.S President Joe Biden has struggled with stuttering, to various degrees, for his entire life. Stuttering is a speech impediment and neurological disorder that may involve “repetitions (D-d-d-dog), prolongations (Mmmmmmilk), or blocks (an absence of sound),” according to the non-profit National Stuttering Association.

This impediment is a condition with a genetic component to it, and Biden’s uncle stuttered his whole life, according to a January 2020 feature in The Atlantic. As a child, according to that article, Joe Biden largely taught himself how to deal with his stutter:

After trying and failing at speech therapy in kinder­garten, Biden waged a personal war on his stutter in his bedroom as a young teen. He’d hold a flashlight to his face in front of his bedroom mirror and recite Yeats and Emerson with attention to rhythm, searching for that elusive control. He still knows the lines by heart: “Meek young men grow up in libraries, believing it their duty to accept the views, which Cicero, which Locke, which Bacon, have given, forgetful that Cicero, Locke, and Bacon were only young men in libraries, when they wrote these books.”

In a February 2020 CNN town hall, Biden disclosed the impediment still affects him from time to time “when I find myself really tired.” He told the audience that the condition “has nothing to do with your intelligence quotient [and] has nothing to do with your intellectual makeup.”

At a New Hampshire campaign stop a few days earlier, Biden showed Brayden Harrington, a 12-year-old boy with a stutter, a printout of a speech he had just given which marked places “where Biden could take breaks between words.” The gesture helped to normalize the condition, the boy’s father told CNN. Harrington later delivered a speech to the Democratic National Convention.

Because Biden has openly discussed his stutter several times, the claim that Biden has a speech impediment is “True.”

Edited February 21, 2022 by Tacenda

[Raingirl]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

When I commented on the post about Biden, and replied with the articles I'd read which I think are legitimate. I didn't know Juliann is a speech and language specialist. I had no idea how to supply the needed information she was asking for as far as with the clinical verbiage. I was going by my common sense in believing he has that problem, and from the links I presented, many others do as well, such as The Stuttering Foundation, the KSL news, PBS and many more. 

I believe I honored the CFR in providing links that verify his stuttering condition. And don't believe he lied/lies about it. 

So, your “common sense” trumps an actual specialist in the field with decades of experience? 
 

You did not meet the CFR. Your “sources” are not professional journals, and you did not provide any diagnostic tools used in your “diagnosis”. 

Juliann is able to use “clinical verbiage” because she is a certified, experienced specialist in the field, whereas you are just reading random stuff on the internet.  

I have to believe that you’re being deliberately obtuse at this point, and not simply this bad at reading comprehension. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Raingirl

[Tacenda]

nvmd

Edited February 21, 2022 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I've been following his stuttering commentary since he ran for office, and distinctly remember how articles mentioned how his speech pattern is his way of controlling himself to not stutter. 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/joe-biden-stutter/

Origin

U.S President Joe Biden has struggled with stuttering, to various degrees, for his entire life. Stuttering is a speech impediment and neurological disorder that may involve “repetitions (D-d-d-dog), prolongations (Mmmmmmilk), or blocks (an absence of sound),” according to the non-profit National Stuttering Association.

This impediment is a condition with a genetic component to it, and Biden’s uncle stuttered his whole life, according to a January 2020 feature in The Atlantic. As a child, according to that article, Joe Biden largely taught himself how to deal with his stutter:

After trying and failing at speech therapy in kinder­garten, Biden waged a personal war on his stutter in his bedroom as a young teen. He’d hold a flashlight to his face in front of his bedroom mirror and recite Yeats and Emerson with attention to rhythm, searching for that elusive control. He still knows the lines by heart: “Meek young men grow up in libraries, believing it their duty to accept the views, which Cicero, which Locke, which Bacon, have given, forgetful that Cicero, Locke, and Bacon were only young men in libraries, when they wrote these books.”

In a February 2020 CNN town hall, Biden disclosed the impediment still affects him from time to time “when I find myself really tired.” He told the audience that the condition “has nothing to do with your intelligence quotient [and] has nothing to do with your intellectual makeup.”

At a New Hampshire campaign stop a few days earlier, Biden showed Brayden Harrington, a 12-year-old boy with a stutter, a printout of a speech he had just given which marked places “where Biden could take breaks between words.” The gesture helped to normalize the condition, the boy’s father told CNN. Harrington later delivered a speech to the Democratic National Convention.

Because Biden has openly discussed his stutter several times, the claim that Biden has a speech impediment is “True.”

Nothing in here or the link to the left-leaning Snopes that affirms Biden has been professionally diagnosed with a fluency disorder. As for his stories of past struggles, he has lied before about his background, as when he claimed to have graduated at the top of his law school class and when he directly plagiarized a British politician while claiming to be telling about his own coal miner ancestors. 
 

No one has denied that developmental stuttering, the kind most people grow out of, may have a genetic component. My nephew and I are from the same family. We both stuttered and both outgrew it early on. 
 

Again, where are the video and audio clips demonstrating a lifelong struggle with stuttering? In the second Obama campaign, he seemed fluent enough in the vice presidential debates. Now that he is showing the diminished capacity that often comes with aging, suddenly his “lifelong struggle with stuttering” comes to the fore. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Nothing in here or the link to the left-leaning Snopes that affirms Biden has been professionally diagnosed with a fluency disorder. As for his stories of past struggles, he has lied before about his background, as when he claimed to have graduated at the top of his law school class and when he directly plagiarized a British politician claiming to be telling about his own coal miner ancestors. 
 

No one has denied that developmental stuttering, the kind most people grow out of, may have a genetic component. My nephew and I are from the same family. We both stuttered and both outgrew it early on. 
 

Again, where are the video and audio clips demonstrating a lifelong struggle with stuttering? In the second Obama campaign, he seemed fluent enough in the vice presidential debates. Now that he is showing the diminished capacity that often comes from aging, suddenly his “lifelong struggle with stuttering” comes to the fore. 

This is convincing to me coming from his sister that he struggled with a speech impediment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI3I-V03-Ng

I will concede that his speech isn't as good as it is in the below video.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?3461-1/biden-campaign-speech

This in response to your said plagiarism by Biden. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/07/neil-kinnock-joe-biden-1987-scandal

Edited February 21, 2022 by Tacenda

[kimpearson]

46 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Nothing in here or the link to the left-leaning Snopes that affirms Biden has been professionally diagnosed with a fluency disorder. As for his stories of past struggles, he has lied before about his background, as when he claimed to have graduated at the top of his law school class and when he directly plagiarized a British politician claiming to be telling about his own coal miner ancestors. 
 

No one has denied that developmental stuttering, the kind most people grow out of, may have a genetic component. My nephew and I are from the same family. We both stuttered and both outgrew it early on. 
 

Again, where are the video and audio clips demonstrating a lifelong struggle with stuttering? In the second Obama campaign, he seemed fluent enough in the vice presidential debates. Now that he is showing the diminished capacity that often comes from aging, suddenly his “lifelong struggle with stuttering” comes to the fore. 

I don't think you will accept anything as evidence but I will still give it try.  Read the following:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/joe-biden-stutter-profile/602401/

Edited February 21, 2022 by kimpearson

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

This in response to your said plagiarism by Biden. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/07/neil-kinnock-joe-biden-1987-scandal

Several times, I’ve seen side-by-side clips of the speech by Kinnock, who back then would have been an obscure foreign figure to most Americans, and Joe Biden lifting the lines word for word from Kinnock’s speech and passing them off as his own. The excuse that he rushed through it and forgot to attribute it to Kinnock doesn’t ring true. And it doesn’t matter that Kinnock loves Biden to pieces. The fact now engraved on the historical record is that Biden committed plagiarism and didn’t own up to it until he got caught. 

[Calm]

Can we drop the Biden stuff please.  Stuttering at least was related to the topic, plagiarism is not. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Calm

[juliann]

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I don't think you will accept anything as evidence but I will still give it try.  Read the following:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/joe-biden-stutter-profile/602401/

Does anyone around here read anything before they pop off? Been there, done that.  Do you really want to replay that article, cause it says.....

Quote

Biden says he hasn’t felt himself caught in a traditional stutter in several decades.

Here is what you can do.  Go back to a speech of Biden's, count the words, then count each dysfluency. Give us a percentage of dysfluencies. Certainly you know exactly what counts as a dysfluency, you expert, you. 

[kimpearson]

33 minutes ago, juliann said:

Does anyone around here read anything before they pop off? Been there, done that.  Do you really want to replay that article, cause it says.....

Here is what you can do.  Go back to a speech of Biden's, count the words, then count each dysfluency. Give us a percentage of dysfluencies. Certainly you know exactly what counts as a dysfluency, you expert, you. 

Why do you seem to have an ax to grind on this subject?  Do you feel like those who suffer from stuttering are being hurt by Biden's narrative?  Do you feel Biden is lying about his stuttering and that is hurting those who struggle with stuttering?  Do you feel your role as an expert compels you to require all of us to understand the fine technical points of stuttering?  Please in plain English tell me the points you are trying to prove?

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Why do you seem to have an ax to grind on this subject?  Do you feel like those who suffer from stuttering are being hurt by Biden's narrative?  Do you feel Biden is lying about his stuttering and that is hurting those who struggle with stuttering?  Do you feel your role as an expert compels you to require all of us to understand the fine technical points of stuttering?  Please in plain English tell me the points you are trying to prove?

I’m having a hard time conceiving how she can be any plainer than she has been. 

[Scott Lloyd]

15 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I don't think you will accept anything as evidence but I will still give it try.  Read the following:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/joe-biden-stutter-profile/602401/

Non-responsive. You still haven’t shown that he claims a professional diagnosis of fluency disorder. The ruminations of his apologists in the liberal media don’t amount to that. 

[Calm]

Enough already!  Scott, Kim, please!  Take it private…maybe the chat function still works if you want to include Tacenda and Juliann too.

added:  my apologies, Kim started the thread, so his choice to discuss what he wants.  Just be aware that mods likely will see it as political and lock it, but maybe enough has been discussed from the OP he doesn’t care.  Apologies again for sticking my nose where it don’t belong, I will just skip the rest of the thread to avoid frustration.  

Edited February 21, 2022 by Calm

[juliann]

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Why do you seem to have an ax to grind on this subject?  Do you feel like those who suffer from stuttering are being hurt by Biden's narrative?  Do you feel Biden is lying about his stuttering and that is hurting those who struggle with stuttering?  Do you feel your role as an expert compels you to require all of us to understand the fine technical points of stuttering?  Please in plain English tell me the points you are trying to prove?

You know, it is board nettiquette to take the time to read the dang thread instead of demanding replays. If my first explanation wasn't good enough, repeating it won't make any difference.

[Scott Lloyd]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

Enough already!  Scott, Kim, please!  Take it private…maybe the chat function still works if you want to include Tacenda and Juliann too.

added:  my apologies, Kim started the thread, so his choice to discuss what he wants.  Just be aware that mods likely will see it as political and lock it, but maybe enough has been discussed from the OP he doesn’t care.  Apologies again for sticking my nose where it don’t belong, I will just skip the rest of the thread to avoid frustration.  

I’ve mainly been supporting Juliann’s points. Is there a reason why you’re not hectoring her? Or Tacenda? (Not that I’m calling on you to do so.)

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve mainly been supporting Juliann’s points. Is there a reason why you’re not hectoring her? Or Tacenda? (Not that I’m calling on you to do so.)

I was responding to the two posts I saw after posting my previous request (I had already seen Juliann’s and so it felt like she responded at the same time I posted rather than after, had gone to back to sleep after reading hers) leaving the thread and coming back to it…it was a gut reaction to feeling I was ignored.  My apologies, woke up in a bad place and then reading that just triggered resentment as it seemed political and I don’t want political today. You guys didn’t deserve it.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I was responding to the two posts after my previous request…it was a gut reaction to feeling I was ignored.  My apologies, woke up in a bad place and then reading that just triggered resentment. You guys didn’t deserve it.

No worries. 

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, juliann said:

You know, it is board nettiquette to take the time to read the dang thread instead of demanding replays. If my first explanation wasn't good enough, repeating it won't make any difference.

One way to refresh memories of individual conversations is to click on someone’s profile and then reread any posts in a particular thread.  I find that is an easy way to ensure I didn’t miss anyone’s posts as can often happen when posting longer posts if I don’t refresh to read any posts posted while I was composing.  Because it is rude IMO to require them to repost if you missed it because of accidentally skipping over it or not just paying enough attention or if like me, you have memory issues and somethings just don’t sink in if distracted.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Calm

[kimpearson]

9 hours ago, juliann said:

You know, it is board nettiquette to take the time to read the dang thread instead of demanding replays. If my first explanation wasn't good enough, repeating it won't make any difference.

 

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve mainly been supporting Juliann’s points. Is there a reason why you’re not hectoring her? Or Tacenda? (Not that I’m calling on you to do so.)

I am trying to understand why bringing something with obvious political overtones about president Biden was brought into this thread.  So in one person's opinion Biden doesn't have a stuttering problem, what the heck does that have to do with BYU's speech program refusing to serve transgender individuals.  I reread all your posts and it just seems like you were trying to derail any discussion about what BYU was doing by bringing something else controversial up.  What was the point of all that discussion in relation to my original post?

[Rain]

On 2/20/2022 at 2:04 PM, juliann said:

Off topic yes, but a good illustration that people make judgments concerning speech/voice disorders without having any background. 

 

8 hours ago, kimpearson said:

 

I am trying to understand why bringing something with obvious political overtones about president Biden was brought into this thread.  So in one person's opinion Biden doesn't have a stuttering problem, what the heck does that have to do with BYU's speech program refusing to serve transgender individuals.  I reread all your posts and it just seems like you were trying to derail any discussion about what BYU was doing by bringing something else controversial up.  What was the point of all that discussion in relation to my original post?

I wondered too when I asked the Biden talk to stop and this is how Juliann answered.  I can understand why she used it, but also think is a poor example for a board that bans politics. 

As OP you can ask for it to stop.  I would also be curious of other non political examples.

Personally I get what she is saying. I get why it could be still ethical to stop the treatment considering what she says about how few speech specific problems are normally addressed on a grad school level.  It makes sense for different colleges to choose which ones they will address.  It would be interesting in the context of this thread to know if there are specific problems addressed at say 90% of the schools.

[juliann]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

 

I wondered too when I asked the Biden talk to stop and this is how Juliann answered.  I can understand why she used it, but also think is a poor example for a board that bans politics. 

As OP you can ask for it to stop.  I would also be curious of other non political examples.

Personally I get what she is saying. I get why it could be still ethical to stop the treatment considering what she says about how few speech specific problems are normally addressed on a grad school level.  It makes sense for different colleges to choose which ones they will address.  It would be interesting in the context of this thread to know if there are specific problems addressed at say 90% of the schools.

When saying that grad students get limited experience in treating speech/language disorders clinically, I didn’t mean that to say schools don’t address disorders in the classroom. 
 

As for bringing up stuttering, that was to demonstrate how easily some are tricked into believing stuff about disorders they don’t know much about merely because someone tells them it’s true. 
 

The only thing that made this political was those who have a knee jerk need to defend anything said or done by a political figure just because. Want to talk about my profession, you are likely to get examples relating to my profession. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by juliann

[Tacenda]

23 minutes ago, juliann said:

When saying that grad students get limited experience in treating speech/language disorders clinically, I didn’t mean that to say schools don’t address disorders in the classroom. 
 

As for bringing up stuttering, that was to demonstrate how easily some are tricked into believing stuff about disorders they don’t know much about merely because someone tells them it’s true. 
 

The only thing that made this political was those who have a knee jerk need to defend anything said or done by a political figure just because. Want to talk about my profession, you are likely to get examples relating to my profession. 

You should have just let it lie, my comment about Biden. Why CFR, you weren't correct in your assumptions that he lied about having a stuttering problem.

[Rain]

27 minutes ago, juliann said:

When saying that grad students get limited experience in treating speech/language disorders clinically, I didn’t mean that to say schools don’t address disorders in the classroom. 

 

Right.  You mean the actual experience/practice correct?

27 minutes ago, juliann said:

 

 

 

As for bringing up stuttering, that was to demonstrate how easily some are tricked into believing stuff about disorders they don’t know much about merely because someone tells them it’s true. 
 

The only thing that made this political was those who have a knee jerk need to defend anything said or done by a political figure just because. Want to talk about my profession, you are likely to get examples relating to my profession.