Brad Wilcox fireside to Alpine youth on Feb 6.

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

^^This.^^

All wounds will be healed, such that what remains from our mortal experience is wisdom and understanding.  All things will have worked together for not only our good, but also for the good all.

Rather than condemning one another for our mistakes, I think we will be grateful to one another for the roles we played. 

I don’t know. I think I am going to still be tempted to curb stomp all the jerks who decided that Iago or Captain Ahab or Lady Macbeth was the role they wanted to go with.

[Olmec Donald]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am toying with the idea mortal life is more like a lucid dream for our eternal selves...

Imo there are little hints sprinkled in unexpected places.   Here's one of them:

"Row row row your boat"  Whose boat are you supposed to row?  Your own.  Is somebody else supposed to row it for you?  No. 

"Gently"  Are we supposed to be in conflict with those around us?  No.

"down the stream"  Not upstream, against the natural current?  No.

"Merrily merrily merrily merrily"  Almost sounds like, "men (and women) are that they might have joy".

"Life is but a dream." 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t know. I think I am going to still be tempted to curb stomp all the jerks who decided that Iago or Captain Ahab or Lady Macbeth was the role they wanted to go with.

It is hard to imagine being grateful to serial killers, mass murderers, and the person who created salad dressing (the fake mayo…so many decent potato salads ruined).

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

Imo there are little hints sprinkled in unexpected places.   Here's one of them:

"Row row row your boat"  Whose boat are you supposed to row?  Your own.  Is somebody else supposed to row it for you?  No. 

"Gently"  Are we supposed to be in conflict with those around us?  No.

"down the stream"  Not upstream, against the natural current?  No.

"Merrily merrily merrily merrily"  Almost sounds like, "men (and women) are that they might have joy".

"Life is but a dream." 

My mom would love you.   

[Olmec Donald]

49 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t know. I think I am going to still be tempted to curb stomp all the jerks who decided that Iago or Captain Ahab or Lady Macbeth was the role they wanted to go with.

What if when the curtain comes down we see that it was a play, a REALLY convincing and educational play, and that nothing real has been lost?

What if a person cannot achieve mastery while simultaneously holding someone else - or oneself! - in condemnation?  Will treasuring condemnation then be worth its cost?

What if all ancient hatreds can be healed and become present loves?

I do realize how unrealistic that sounds, and maybe from where we are right now the best we can do is offer a little willingness. 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[kimpearson]

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

This is a very subjective attitude toward truth, as well it should be. But bear in mind that the same truth that is viewed as edifying by some is viewed as destructive by others. Many in Lehi’s party viewed his teachings as life-threatening, undermining identity, robbing rights and materially ruinous. The judgements of God have always been against the proud, whether they were the prophets or, most commonly, wicked elements among the people they served.

Is it?  Name one truth that makes people feel hate themselves or view themselves as less than others based on some trait they have no control over like gender, skin color or sexual attraction.  That same truth must make all feel an increase of love and peace.  No, the teachings of Lehi made some in partly mad because they had to give up privilege including riches.   They were also mad because they wanted to be in charge.  Funny thing though, in the end they went along with Lehi's teachings and did just fine.  

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

This is how things work with repentance, but the Spirit confirms that which is right, not wrong. Remorse of conscience comes from having denied the light (that which we knew was right in the first place), sometimes to the point of forgetting it, not from correction of ignorance, which is liberating and joyous. There is always far less sense of condemnation in the latter than the former.

You are limiting the Spirit to only confirming that which is right?  Interesting belief but I don't think you can find any support for that.

[kimpearson]

45 minutes ago, Calm said:

So how does this work with those never expose to Christian teachings, who grew up in extremely violent surroundings, whose interactions with others were all abusive?

Serious question, not rhetorical…I want to understand how you see that as working in the more limited environments.  I think I probably agree with you in your above comments.

I am toying with the idea mortal life is more like a lucid dream for our eternal selves, so that there is a part of us that can see the whole picture even while it is happening.  The veil is like a one way mirror, though I dislike talking as if we are two beings or two minds when we are all one…but is the finger aware of what the hand  is experiencing or the hand the body or does our mind collect and integrate all the different ‘experiences’ happening to our bodies and we can live the individual experience of a finger slammed in the door while simultaneously live as a complete body, reacting to the damage of the finger as well as what else is happening.  The complete self thus can recognize the hand of God in our lives and is learning a multitude of knowledge even if our conscious minds are not that much, if at all.  Thus even if the mortal side of us is reduced to even just an animalistic existence of pain, our greater self is still having opportunities of learning by watching how others interact with us, whether they are contributing to the pain, trying to help, or could care less.  Our minds that we are aware of are a subset of our total mind/spirit/awareness…perhaps part of us are lost in the theatrical parts we are playing while another part is critiquing our performance and adjusting in response to that and the behaviour of other actors in order to keep the play on track, while death brings us fully back to our senses, so to speak.

So what about the idea of where, when and into what circumstances you were born doesn't make any difference in the eternal scheme but rather what is important is what choices and kind of person you choose to be in the circumstances your in.  To he whom much is given much is required.  Parable of the talents.   I think the atonement takes care of everything else.  I also think we have to be careful about children who die before the age of 8 and broadly saying everyone who died before the age of 8 was destined to that because they were so good in the pre-existence.  That turns God into a big time puppet master.  I think it is safer to say they will not be condemned for any sins committed on this earth because they never reached the age of accountability.  Beyond that we don't really know how the process works for them.  Race, gender, sexual attraction, family or place of birth make no difference in the eternal scheme but the way we choose to treat each other on the basis of those characteristics makes all the difference.

I do believe that certain individuals were chosen for specific roles including prophets, certain political leaders, certain religious leaders, other powerful people who influence the world.  I think many all to often want a belief that allows them to identify themselves as special and chosen in a way that lets them feel they are better than others.  The children of Israel were not better or made better choices than everyone else on earth or in the pre-existence and members of the Church are not better or made better choice on earth or in the pre-existence than anyone else.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

So what about the idea of where, when and into what circumstances you were born doesn't make any difference in the eternal scheme but rather what is important is what choices and kind of person you choose to be in the circumstances your in. 

I agree with what you say here, though from other posts I believe I see the implications for how that works out in how we are to behave in mortality might vary some from how you see it.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Calm

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

So how does this work with those never expose to Christian teachings, who grew up in extremely violent surroundings, whose interactions with others were all abusive?

Serious question, not rhetorical…I want to understand how you see that as working in the more limited environments.  I think I probably agree with you in your above comments.

I am toying with the idea mortal life is more like a lucid dream for our eternal selves, so that there is a part of us that can see the whole picture even while it is happening.  The veil is like a one way mirror, though I dislike talking as if we are two beings or two minds when we are all one…but is the finger aware of what the hand  is experiencing or the hand the body or does our mind collect and integrate all the different ‘experiences’ happening to our bodies and we can live the individual experience of a finger slammed in the door while simultaneously live as a complete body, reacting to the damage of the finger as well as what else is happening.  The complete self thus can recognize the hand of God in our lives and is learning a multitude of knowledge even if our conscious minds are not that much, if at all.  Thus even if the mortal side of us is reduced to even just an animalistic existence of pain, our greater self is still having opportunities of learning by watching how others interact with us, whether they are contributing to the pain, trying to help, or could care less.  Our minds that we are aware of are a subset of our total mind/spirit/awareness…perhaps part of us are lost in the theatrical parts we are playing while another part is critiquing our performance and adjusting in response to that and the behaviour of other actors in order to keep the play on track, while death brings us fully back to our senses, so to speak.

It works in that the larger design is not a limited environment: “the bounds of their habitation” include and extend into the spirit world. The cursings do not, though individual condemnation does (spirit prison) until repented of.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

Is it?  Name one truth that makes people feel hate themselves or view themselves as less than others based on some trait they have no control over like gender, skin color or sexual attraction.  That same truth must make all feel an increase of love and peace.  No, the teachings of Lehi made some in partly mad because they had to give up privilege including riches.   They were also mad because they wanted to be in charge.  Funny thing though, in the end they went along with Lehi's teachings and did just fine.  

You are limiting the Spirit to only confirming that which is right?  Interesting belief but I don't think you can find any support for that.

That is my point: people break themselves against the truth when they prefer or are duped by the “steady beat of Babylon’s band.” For example, the truth that we are beloved children of God with access to every blessing sooner or later quickly gets eclipsed by the “steady beat of Babylon’s band” on topics of gender, skin color or sexual attraction. Those who went along with Lehi’s teachings did just fine; those who broke themselves against the covenants, commandments, revelations, teachings and Liahona did not. And yes, safety, identity, rights and materialism were very much a part of his detractors’ issues with his teachings. 

CFR that the Spirit first confirms that which is wrong, and that the light of Christ first teaches us what is wrong.

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

So how does this work with those never expose to Christian teachings, who grew up in extremely violent surroundings, whose interactions with others were all abusive?

Serious question, not rhetorical…I want to understand how you see that as working in the more limited environments.  I think I probably agree with you in your above comments.

I am toying with the idea mortal life is more like a lucid dream for our eternal selves, so that there is a part of us that can see the whole picture even while it is happening.  The veil is like a one way mirror, though I dislike talking as if we are two beings or two minds when we are all one…but is the finger aware of what the hand  is experiencing or the hand the body or does our mind collect and integrate all the different ‘experiences’ happening to our bodies and we can live the individual experience of a finger slammed in the door while simultaneously live as a complete body, reacting to the damage of the finger as well as what else is happening.  The complete self thus can recognize the hand of God in our lives and is learning a multitude of knowledge even if our conscious minds are not that much, if at all.  Thus even if the mortal side of us is reduced to even just an animalistic existence of pain, our greater self is still having opportunities of learning by watching how others interact with us, whether they are contributing to the pain, trying to help, or could care less.  Our minds that we are aware of are a subset of our total mind/spirit/awareness…perhaps part of us are lost in the theatrical parts we are playing while another part is critiquing our performance and adjusting in response to that and the behaviour of other actors in order to keep the play on track, while death brings us fully back to our senses, so to speak.

This is an interesting concept. I reminds me of a thought I’ve had about persona with dementia. Is it possible the eternal spirit if the person  is protected and is off in another place separate from the mind and body that no longer work? 

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

This is an interesting concept. I reminds me of a thought I’ve had about persona with dementia. Is it possible the eternal spirit if the person  is protected and is off in another place separate from the mind and body that no longer work? 

Having seen Mom in dementia, the mind is not the same.  If she is truly eternal that part of her had to be somewhere.  
 

Maybe in mortality we are all suffering from dementia to a significant extent.   

[BlueDreams]

6 hours ago, rongo said:

I think that people have preferences for where they want the fallibility to be: "front-loaded," or "on the back end." For example, I would rather that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young have not been in error, than later prophets. Others would much rather more modern prophets "got it right," and are more fine with the original ones "being wrong." 

Since even our current prophets aren't infallible, there is at least the possibility that the essay's "disavowal" of past explanations is in error, and not the past explanations themselves. If this possibility is rejected as impossible, at least in theory, then how are current prophets not infallible? 

I don't think anyone here preaches or believes infallibility. Most are loathe to give any possible examples from the current era, and are more comfortable with examples safely in the distant past. 

I personally don’t have a “preference” people are people. And the one difference between the past and the present is that it’s easier to pinpoint signs of fallibility in the past than the present due to documentation and time giving a long-term context that we in the present can’t have. 

That’s why to me at least it’s far more likely to be that what was disavowed was wrong, not the disavowal. These theories and justifications didn’t weather well, to say the least and more so reflected common cultural assumptions that took in mormon flares than anything deep. Most of them to me come up disjointed when applying them to the gospel or scriptures. They disrupt truth, not edify it for me. 
 

An easy example that’s on the disavowal list is the mixed-race marriages as sin. When I was younger I’d see a couple people still try to justify the 1 remaining quote from a dead prophet dissuading this. This quote was a soft discouragement compared to BY’s death on the spot speeches, indicating just how weak the sun argument has become. And it royally falls apart in my nascent family where the two marriages that are currently the most solid in the church are both mixed culturally/racially. Both in-laws also come from a heritage where their countries have huge amounts of racial mixing historically that made their people as they currently are. My decision to marry was intensely spiritual and included god effectively telling me I was receiving a gift and to treat the relationship as such. It turned out to be great spiritual preparation for when my mother freaked out and got a little xenophobic. So it fails me personally, epically. It falls apart on the plethora of more diverse countries where mixing basically made their population. It changed in intensity and finally disappeared within the church as a teaching, insomuch that mixed marriages can be found on all levels of leadership in the church and no one bats an eye at it. So yeah, imma say the teaching was what was wrong not the disavowal.
 

with luv,

BD 

[BlueDreams]

6 hours ago, rongo said:

If the pre-existence is completely thrown out of court as impacting mortality at all, then there is a lot more inequality and unfairness, because people run the gamut of opportunities and disadvantages based on placement (sheer random luck, in the eyes of some, or with divine purpose in the eyes of others). Seen purely from that standpoint, life is simply unfair, isn't it?

So how do you picture the pre-existence as effecting mortality. Both generally and then with race (particularly during the ban)…? 
 

With luv, 

bd 

[kimpearson]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

That is my point: people break themselves against the truth when they prefer or are duped by the “steady beat of Babylon’s band.” For example, the truth that we are beloved children of God with access to every blessing sooner or later quickly gets eclipsed by the “steady beat of Babylon’s band” on topics of gender, skin color or sexual attraction. Those who went along with Lehi’s teachings did just fine; those who broke themselves against the covenants, commandments, revelations, teachings and Liahona did not. And yes, safety, identity, rights and materialism were very much a part of his detractors’ issues with his teachings. 

CFR that the Spirit first confirms that which is wrong, and that the light of Christ first teaches us what is wrong.

1 Nephi 22:2, Jacob 4:13, Doctrine and Covenants 46:16, 23, 27, Doctrine and Covenants 76: 28-38, Doctrine and Covenants 8: 2-4

 

Boyd K. Packer explained: “The Holy Ghost speaks with a voice that you feel more than you hear. … While we speak of ‘listening’ to the whisperings of the Spirit, most often one describes a spiritual prompting by saying, ‘I had a feeling …’” He continued: “This voice of the Spirit speaks gently, prompting you what to do or what to say, or it may caution or warn you” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1994, 77; or Ensign, Nov. 1994, 60).

 

There are times when the Holy Ghost warns us of danger or temptation. Elder Franklin D. Richards told of a young father who “was awakened one night by a voice that clearly told him to get up and go downstairs. He heeded the warning, and in going into the kitchen he found one wall engulfed in flames. Hurriedly he awakened his family and called the fire department, and with the help of his family he fought the fire, keeping it down until the fire department arrived and put it out.“There was no question in his mind that this warning was a manifestation of the protection the Holy Ghost can give to those who keep their lives in harmony with the Spirit” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1973, 171; or Ensign, July 1973, 117).

 

As part of Heavenly Father’s plan of happiness, He has given us the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost helps us avoid temptations and helps us stay clean from sin.

The Holy Ghost warns us so we can stay safe from danger. He comforts us and leads us through challenges.

We need to follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost to travel safely through life.

Help from the Holy Ghost

Quentin L. Cook

[CV75]

7 hours ago, kimpearson said:

1 Nephi 22:2, Jacob 4:13, Doctrine and Covenants 46:16, 23, 27, Doctrine and Covenants 76: 28-38, Doctrine and Covenants 8: 2-4

 

Boyd K. Packer explained: “The Holy Ghost speaks with a voice that you feel more than you hear. … While we speak of ‘listening’ to the whisperings of the Spirit, most often one describes a spiritual prompting by saying, ‘I had a feeling …’” He continued: “This voice of the Spirit speaks gently, prompting you what to do or what to say, or it may caution or warn you” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1994, 77; or Ensign, Nov. 1994, 60).

 

There are times when the Holy Ghost warns us of danger or temptation. Elder Franklin D. Richards told of a young father who “was awakened one night by a voice that clearly told him to get up and go downstairs. He heeded the warning, and in going into the kitchen he found one wall engulfed in flames. Hurriedly he awakened his family and called the fire department, and with the help of his family he fought the fire, keeping it down until the fire department arrived and put it out.“There was no question in his mind that this warning was a manifestation of the protection the Holy Ghost can give to those who keep their lives in harmony with the Spirit” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1973, 171; or Ensign, July 1973, 117).

 

As part of Heavenly Father’s plan of happiness, He has given us the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost helps us avoid temptations and helps us stay clean from sin.

The Holy Ghost warns us so we can stay safe from danger. He comforts us and leads us through challenges.

We need to follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost to travel safely through life.

Help from the Holy Ghost

Quentin L. Cook

See* https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2010/03/the-holy-ghost-testifies-of-truth?lang=eng, notably points 1 – 9.

The examples you shared demonstrate that caution, warnings, protecting, strengthening and comforting against spiritual and physical harm and danger are not confirmations of things that are not true. These and the gifts of the Spirit, discernment, visions, revelation and prophesying of the plan of salvation all hinge on the Spirit witnessing, or having witnessed, of that which is true, not false. Is it false that the devil wars against God? (No).

Now I will never argue with someone that says the Holy Ghost told them that same-sex marriage is a true principle. But on the basis of what we know of the functions of the Holy Ghost and the light of Christ, I can tell them that He did not confirm that the Church’s doctrine on marriage is false and dangerous or incomplete. Then they can reevaluate their understanding and what to do when their spiritual conclusions conflict with doctrine

People often mistake feelings of contention, insult, fear, shame, etc. with a divine sense of oncoming harm and danger or spiritual discernment of error. Or rationale and justification with inspiration. This kind of mistake is usually a matter of inexperience, misunderstanding, willfulness or pride.

*Also see https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/holy-ghost?lang=eng

[Tacenda]

12 hours ago, Peacefully said:

This is an interesting concept. I reminds me of a thought I’ve had about persona with dementia. Is it possible the eternal spirit if the person  is protected and is off in another place separate from the mind and body that no longer work? 

Wow, that would be my dream come true. I watched for 10 years my mother with dementia/Alzheimer's suffering. I would be so happy, if I knew she was off somewhere else. At the end of her life, the CNA who had dealt with many elderly in their dying moments, said my mom's spirit had already began to leave up to heaven. 

I also like to believe that children that are abused's little spirits are taken away for those moments by an angel and held for a while.

[Tacenda]

This popped up on my youtube page. According to the comments, Brad did a great job. Started listening now. 

 

 

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This popped up on my youtube page. According to the comments, Brad did a great job. Started listening now. 

 

 

I'll have to listen to it.

Brad is known to have a good relationship with a lot of religious people who are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  He's more complex that the Alpine talk makes him seem (and more complex than some people want to allow).

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'll have to listen to it.

Brad is known to have a good relationship with a lot of religious people who are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  He's more complex that the Alpine talk makes him seem (and more complex than some people want to allow).

That's why I'm listening, to hear this side of him.

[rongo]

https://kutv.com/news/local/byu-black-student-union-members-show-up-to-brad-wilcox-class-hoping-for-dialogue

Thoughts on Black Student Union members, wearing all black, interrupting his religion class wanting "a dialogue," then demanding one after class (he offered to schedule an appointment)? 

My opinion: not handled well, and more intended to be activist than genuinely seeking a "dialogue." More prone to pour gas on what's left of the fire, and put Wilcox on the defensive than have a heart to heart.

[Calm]

Tacenda, do you have a date on that?

I have read several expressions of shock that Brother Wilcox used the phrase “playing at church” or whatever it was after having this type of interaction.  Just goes to show again how inconsistent we humans can be.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Tacenda, do you have a date on that?

I have read several expressions of shock that Brother Wilcox used the phrase “playing at church” or whatever it was after having this type of interaction.  Just goes to show again how inconsistent we humans can be.

This took place in June of 2017. I'm currently nearing the end and am pleased with the dialogue. Very good listen! Brad explains our religion very well, and makes it sound much more forgiving than some religions out there. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

and more intended to be activist than genuinely seeking a "dialogue."

Could be both imo, but they have imo made it plain this is going to be a public dialogue.  The approach feels like better to ask forgiveness than seek permission because they possibly believed they would never have been given permission to go public and that if they did the stunt after the fact, Brother Wilcox could look like he had the higher moral position by sharing he had been perfectly willing to interact with them as individuals, he just didn’t want a public spectacle.

Added:  after watching the video, I have no issues with their approach given the situation. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Calm

[Rain]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

https://kutv.com/news/local/byu-black-student-union-members-show-up-to-brad-wilcox-class-hoping-for-dialogue

Thoughts on Black Student Union members, wearing all black, interrupting his religion class wanting "a dialogue," then demanding one after class (he offered to schedule an appointment)? 

My opinion: not handled well, and more intended to be activist than genuinely seeking a "dialogue." More prone to pour gas on what's left of the fire, and put Wilcox on the defensive than have a heart to heart.

I couldn't find anything about interrupting the class. What I understood was they asked to have a conversation after the class was over.  He chose not to, but said he would make an appointment to do it later.

The all black clothes weren't meant to intimidate (you didn't say that,  but some may feel that way), but to have "solidarity".  Others might think of that as unity.

Their purpose in being there according to the leader is to help him understand how they feel.

I kind of see it as a mix of both sides.  The students may not have realized that it might come across as aggressive to others. The way they went about it may have been poor planning - I say may because I don't have any idea if they tried to contact him in other ways.  Others see it as more of a confrontation where it sounds like the students just wanted a listener and to be understood. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Rain