The Three Omnis

[JLHPROF]

I have occasionally stated that I reject the three Omnis that are often applied to God.  In truth it's the absolute nature of them I reject sometimes based on their illogical application, sometimes based on scriptures.

As I often am I'm curious what variety of beliefs on this among our member sample slice of board members.

[Tacenda]

I don't believe God can be everywhere at all times, that's why he has angels.

[Calm]

Another option for omniscience I have frequently seen is “God possesses all knowledge that it is possible to possess”…generally referring to a limited foreknowledge (able to predict very accurately based on knowledge of laws and past actions, but if there is actual freedom in choice and it is not all determined, there is a chance someone might choose differently than predicted plus probabilities of choice or something occurring are not stagnant over time)

https://ldsperspectives.com/2018/04/25/philosophical-look-god/

Quote

I redefined God’s omniscience into what I call contingent omniscience. God knows all probabilities in the moment of how probable they are. For instance, if I have stage three cancer, God knows the probability I’m not going to live another year. It’s already given in the way things are. But probabilities are changing all the time, so God’s knowledge of probability is changing. But also, the choices that we make until we make the choices are not known. However, God knows all possibilities

PS: quoting Ostler because he is good imo in pointing out conflicts in Latter-day Saint views of the nature of God. My personal view of all of the above is “I don’t know, but I choose to trust God is and will be in control and knows what is best ultimately for all as both humankind and the rest of Creation and for all of us as individuals.”

Edited January 24, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

Same link for omnipotence:

Quote

we have this notion that God can bring about anything logically possible. It’s logically possible that I do a free act, but it’s not logically possible that God does my free act or it wouldn’t be mine. So immediately, the notion that God can do anything that’s logically possible to do has to be modified so that God doesn’t bring about my free acts. Human freedom places some limits on God’s ability to do things. Further, it must be immediately apparent that God can’t bring about a reality that is different from what it actually was. Otherwise, we violate the most basic law of logic—the law of non-contradiction, right?

God can’t change the past. He can’t bring about a reality that’s inconsistent with what has occurred in the past. In any event, through the discussion, I come up with a notion of God’s Almighty Power, if you will, and it differs from the view that God can do anything that’s logically possible. I give four conditions, essentially, on what God can do. It has to be compatible with God’s attributes. For instance, if God can bring about anything that’s logically possible. It’s possible for me to sin, but most people hold it’s not possible for God to sin. I think it is possible for God to sin. But certainly, God can’t do things that are incompatible with His basic attributes. God can’t do anything that is brought about freely by another agent. God can’t change the past, and He’s not required to create out of nothing. If the universe has eternally existed and God can only bring about what is consistent with what’s been in the past, and if that is a fact, then God need not be able to create the universe in order to have Almighty Power.

 

[Freedom]

The challenge we face with such an academic exercise is that we have no comprehension of how heaven works. We can only compare God to our realm, but this is like a group of 5 year olds coming up with a pol; to explain love and marriage. We do not understand how Gods influence works other than the vague notion of the power of the priesthood. We have no idea how the universe works as we are left scrambling with various academic theories. We are to god what monkeys are to us. I suspect that the reason why we cannot come up with a unifying theory is that we lack the capacity to comprehend the true nature of the universe. 

I suspect that God is the god of us, but not of all existence; that he is part of the creative process as we will on day be. But ultimately it is all an academic exercise of primitive mortal humans who live from day to day, unable to perceive time or matter. 

[rodheadlee]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't believe God can be everywhere at all times, that's why he has angels.

Yes.

[Amulek]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Another option for omniscience I have frequently seen is “God possesses all knowledge that it is possible to possess”…

This.

When it comes to something like omnipotence, I've never had a problem with the notion of God being "limited" by that which is logically possible.

This is your classic 'can God create a rock so large that he cannot lift it' kind of dilemma. It may very well be the case that, with God, all things are possible...unless one of those things happens to be wanting to create a Euclidean triangle whose interior angles do not sum to 180 degrees.

Likewise, I don't see there being a problem with applying that same sort of "limitation" to omniscience.

So, instead of having God knowing everything absolutely, we're left with God knowing everything that is logically possible to be known - which makes room for us to be authentically free agents.

 

[Lemuel]

Came to this thread looking for a deep dive into the book of Omni.  Disappointed.

[CV75]

Relative to us, yes, I believe He is Omnipotent in that He is the one testing our agency in this estate from His estate, and He is the only one who can save us from this estate and bring us into His. That He can move from His estate to ours makes relatively “Omni-”. But the agency He gave us comes with some limits and conditions on His part. This poll seems to relate to the poll on law.

[bluebell]

I think it also depends on what the scriptures mean when they say that the past, present, and future are always before Him.  If time is different for God (and it's not just an issue of being predictable because He's so smart or knows us so well), then He could have knowledge in ways that don't make sense to us.

If the future is just as present for Him as the present, for example, then knowing what will happen is not about predicting the future, but about Him already having observed you actually making the choice that you are going to make.  

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I have occasionally stated that I reject the three Omnis that are often applied to God.  In truth it's the absolute nature of them I reject sometimes based on their illogical application, sometimes based on scriptures.

As I often am I'm curious what variety of beliefs on this among our member sample slice of board members.

Omnibeneficence "All-good" is missing from that three.

Only one omni- is found in the KJV, at Rev 19:6, "omnipotent," which translates Greek pantokrator.  That same Greek term shows up in the Septuagint as a false translation for Hebrew Shadday at Gen 49:25, and elsewhere for Hebrew ṣebāʼôt "hosts" as "almighty."

There is simply no warrant for such translations, and they are based on Greek theological concepts, the same absolutist concepts which underly normative Judeo-Christian-Muslim theology today, but which ultimately come from Greek philosophy, not from the Bible.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Robert F. Smith

[longview]

I believe the laws of physics to be finite (as well as all other sciences) so God has "perfect knowledge".  God probably does NOT know all intelligences who are waiting for their turn to participate in the Plan of Happiness and become spirit children of Heavenly Parents.  But God knows very intimately every single being that are admitted into the "current generation" (Eternal Round).  They are countable in His Sight.

I believe the universe to be infinite (the Big Bang could not produce infinity).  Also, the number of intelligences is infinite (therefore the work of the Gods will NEVER end).  God will have Eternal Increase.  Meaning that His posterity will always increase in generations on top of generations (dominions).

The nature of time is different in the Eternal Realms.  Celestial Beings can see ALL of time simultaneously.  But Lucifer and all other non-exalted beings are confined to linear time.  This is why Lucifer did not fully understand the implications of having Eve eat of the forbidden fruit.  Lucifer thought he was sabotaging the Plan but God permitted the transgression that enabled the implementation of the Plan of Happiness.  It was needful for Adam and Eve to make their choice without the undue influence of God.

The implementation of the Plan of Happiness for the Creation and the Fall could NOT have been allowed to proceed UNLESS God could literally see into the future and assure that the Atonement "was" accomplished by the perfect Lamb of God (in the Meridian of Time).  Was this assurance necessary before permitting the intelligences to enter into the First Estate?  I believe so.

[Olmec Donald]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm curious what variety of beliefs on this among our member sample slice of board members.

My concept of God is not fixed at this time.  It used to be, or so I thought. At this point I subscribe to two seemingly mutually exclusive paradigms:

I believe Joseph Smith's paradigm expressed in the King Follet sermon, that we are to progress "from exaltation to exaltation", imo implying that we graduate from one level to a higher level multiple times.  Imo Brigham Young's Adam-God theory is consistent with this paradigm, which (as I understand it) has a pattern SOMETHING like this (not saying this IS the pattern):  There is an advanced being (or group of beings) who is over this planet; then another advanced being (or groups of beings) on the next level up who is over this solar system (or maybe several solar systems); then another advanced being (or group of beings) yet another level up who is over this galaxy, and so on.  ANY of these beings (or groups of beings) would be "God", from our perspective.  This paradigm suggests that as we look FORWARD in time to our (potential) future through the lense of modern revelation and some of the more advanced non-canonical teachings of Joseph Smith, we are in a sense also looking BACKWARDS in time at how things came to be as they are now.  In my opinion our path under this paradigm is very long and there are no shortcuts and no freebies, aside from not being condemned for our mistakes.  We still have to take and pass all the required classes at every level.  In this paradigm, "God" at each level is limited in scope, though presumably less so at the highest level(s).

I ALSO believe that we are to be one with one another, and one with Christ, as Christ is one with God, so by extrapolation we too are to be one with God.  And I think this "oneness" has a vastly deeper meaning than "completely in agreement with".   And maybe we already are One - maybe it's not a matter of "becoming something which we are not", but a matter of "reaching the point where our consciousness is correctly perceiving something that is and has always been."  In this paradigm, separation from God, from Christ, and from one another is an illusion, the barrier being the veil and/or our own ideas and behaviors which effectively blind us to our reality.  In this paradigm, "God" is the Omni-God, or Quasi-Omni-God, or something like that - I haven't figured out those details yet.

My amateurish attempt at "reconciling" these two seemingly mutually exclusive paradigms is this:  The former pertains primarily to the physical universe (and may include levels which are not readily accessible to us now), and our role in it is to advance it, or advance within it, and thereby elevate it from whatever level(s) it's on now to whatever its potential is, such that this universe (including its inhabitants) "fills the measure of its creation", which may not all happen at one specific point in time.   This process will probably extend over billions of years.  The latter paradigm pertains to the world(s) beyond the physical, and I don't think "time" as we currently experience it is a thing there.  But don't ask me for the details. 

So kinda like the first paradigm is about our Work, and the second paradigm is about our Home.  And maybe these two paradigms converge/resolve quickly once we're beyond the veil and/or beyond this Telestial world.  

Tomorrow my concept of God may be completely different.  And maybe one day it will actually be correct.  In the meantime I'm not smart enough to think through all the paradoxes.  

So anyway I would answer the poll differently depending on which paradigm I was using for the word "God".  So I answered "other".  

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[JLHPROF]

Once again, an interesting variety of responses.

I especially find the idea of omniscience interesting - that 40% of respondents so far think God can know absolutely all knowledge it is possible to know.

Knowledge is not a finite body of information, it is constantly and eternally expanding, in every creation belonging to every God in every Universe.
The idea of anyone knowing absolutely everything seems like a logical absurdity to me.  Every bit as much as the "can God create a rock so heavy He can't lift it" puzzle.
As far as I'm concerned true omniscience isn't a thing.  However I do believe God knows absolutely everything there is to know about his creations, this earth, and us.

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Once again, an interesting variety of responses.

I especially find the idea of omniscience interesting - that 40% of respondents so far think God can know absolutely all knowledge it is possible to know.

Knowledge is not a finite body of information, it is constantly and eternally expanding, in every creation belonging to every God in every Universe.
The idea of anyone knowing absolutely everything seems like a logical absurdity to me.  Every bit as much as the "can God create a rock so heavy He can't lift it" puzzle.
As far as I'm concerned true omniscience isn't a thing.  However I do believe God knows absolutely everything there is to know about his creations, this earth, and us.

The global flood seems like a logical absurdity to me, but I've been told that with God, nothing is impossible and we can't use our logic or reason to decide whether or not something is true.