We don't see with the same eyes take 2

[rodheadlee]

Let me try this again. In 1st Nephi chapter 4 Nephi slays Laban and retrieved the Brass plates.

Some of us look at this as following God's instructions and some of us look at this and see Nephi as a murderer. We see exact opposite things. Why? Is every situation dependent on itself or is it polarized as to a certain type of person or paradigm? Or is this line of thought a waste of time? Person A believes in God, person B doesn't. Some guys like blondes, some guys like brunettes, some guys like rock, some guys like opera. 

Yeah, right, go to sleep Rod.

[kimpearson]

I see the difference in this case as belief versus non belief in something there is no current proof for.  Does God exist?  Does He talk to individuals?  Was Nephi commanded by God to kill Laban?  If you believe in God and that He told Nephi to kill Laban, Nephi did ok.  If you don't believe, Nephi was a murder.  In my opinion, internal beliefs are at the heart of most modern conflict because those beliefs don't really care about physical evidence.  Nobody argues that the sun exists, the evidence is indisputable.  There is a dispute over the effectiveness of the covid vaccine despite a lot of evidence it is safe because of the internal belief of many in things that are difficult to completely disprove.  On the other hand many others believe in the effectiveness of the vaccine because they believe in the evidence.  What is interesting in the case of the vaccine, is the possibility of its danger, ineffectiveness or developed by immoral means seems to be very small but with just that little bit of room for doubt, belief wins out for many.  Belief appears to be the strongest motivator for most individuals and those beliefs need no physical evidence to be held as the absolute truth.

The real question in my mind is how is belief formed.  What does it take to change belief?  Why is physical evidence totally ignored often in belief?

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

 

The real question in my mind is how is belief formed.  What does it take to change belief?  Why is physical evidence totally ignored often in belief?

Yes, this is what I was trying to get at. How do we form our beliefs? Thank you.

 

[Navidad]

10 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Let me try this again. In 1st Nephi chapter 4 Nephi slays Laban and retrieved the Brass plates.

Some of us look at this as following God's instructions and some of us look at this and see Nephi as a murderer. We see exact opposite things. Why? Is every situation dependent on itself or is it polarized as to a certain type of person or paradigm? Or is this line of thought a waste of time? Person A believes in God, person B doesn't. Some guys like blondes, some guys like brunettes, some guys like rock, some guys like opera. 

Yeah, right, go to sleep Rod.

Some think Nephi was a murderer and some think he was following God' instructions. Those are the two belief choices you offer us. Might I suggest a third and perhaps a majority opinion in Christianity? I would suggest the majority of Christians by a wide margin don't believe Nephi ever existed, neither did Laban so therefore he is neither a murderer or following God's instructions. The idea of looking at something with different eyes is much broader than you are making it.

The spectrum of belief and beliefs is very broad, including those who, in addition to not believing in Laban, don't believe in God, or those who believe in polytheism, or or or or. The human capacity to believe or not to believe is very wide with widely varied strengths. I do think that liking and believing are mixing metaphors so to speak. I like the Bucs, I will be rooting for them this afternoon. However, I don't believe they will win the championship this year. Too many injuries.

I find special meaning in the flood account. I don't believe it was world-wide, nor that each and every fact about it is to be believed. However my belief is not sufficiently passionate that I would argue with anyone about it. I believe Christ worked a supernatural miracle in feeding 5000 people. I also believe it could have been 4,829 or 5,815 people. I recognize my beliefs as not much more than that - my beliefs. I believe, but without certainty. That gives me the comfort of belief, without the anxiety and stress of needing or having to be right. Not sure I added anything to the conversation! Go Bucs!

[mfbukowski]

39 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Some think Nephi was a murderer and some think he was following God' instructions. Those are the two belief choices you offer us. Might I suggest a third and perhaps a majority opinion in Christianity? I would suggest the majority of Christians by a wide margin don't believe Nephi ever existed, neither did Laban so therefore he is neither a murderer or following God's instructions. The idea of looking at something with different eyes is much broader than you are making it.

The spectrum of belief and beliefs is very broad, including those who, in addition to not believing in Laban, don't believe in God, or those who believe in polytheism, or or or or. The human capacity to believe or not to believe is very wide with widely varied strengths. I do think that liking and believing are mixing metaphors so to speak. I like the Bucs, I will be rooting for them this afternoon. However, I don't believe they will win the championship this year. Too many injuries.

I find special meaning in the flood account. I don't believe it was world-wide, nor that each and every fact about it is to be believed. However my belief is not sufficiently passionate that I would argue with anyone about it. I believe Christ worked a supernatural miracle in feeding 5000 people. I also believe it could have been 4,829 or 5,815 people. I recognize my beliefs as not much more than that - my beliefs. I believe, but without certainty. That gives me the comfort of belief, without the anxiety and stress of needing or having to be right. Not sure I added anything to the conversation! Go Bucs!

I have read a LOT of philosophy in the last 54 years.

Not once did I care about the personal life of the philosopher, or if the analogies and stories ever happened.

It's simply not relevant for the usefulness of the theory 

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Some think Nephi was a murderer and some think he was following God' instructions. Those are the two belief choices you offer us. Might I suggest a third and perhaps a majority opinion in Christianity? I would suggest the majority of Christians by a wide margin don't believe Nephi ever existed, neither did Laban so therefore he is neither a murderer or following God's instructions. The idea of looking at something with different eyes is much broader than you are making it.

The spectrum of belief and beliefs is very broad, including those who, in addition to not believing in Laban, don't believe in God, or those who believe in polytheism, or or or or. The human capacity to believe or not to believe is very wide with widely varied strengths. I do think that liking and believing are mixing metaphors so to speak. I like the Bucs, I will be rooting for them this afternoon. However, I don't believe they will win the championship this year. Too many injuries.

I find special meaning in the flood account. I don't believe it was world-wide, nor that each and every fact about it is to be believed. However my belief is not sufficiently passionate that I would argue with anyone about it. I believe Christ worked a supernatural miracle in feeding 5000 people. I also believe it could have been 4,829 or 5,815 people. I recognize my beliefs as not much more than that - my beliefs. I believe, but without certainty. That gives me the comfort of belief, without the anxiety and stress of needing or having to be right. Not sure I added anything to the conversation! Go Bucs!

I was trying to keep it simple. I'm a simple guy. I'm a carpenter. The world is black and white Not Grey. Either your walls are Plumb or they're not, if they're quarter inch out of plumb they need to be fixed. If your stairs are out of level they need to be fixed it's not acceptable to be an eighth inch out of level. If the rise is 7 + 7/16 then every step needs to be 7 and 7/16 after carpet and tile.

I suppose that doesn't work that well with philosophy.

By the way I like the Rams and I believe they will beat the Bucs today.

Edited January 23, 2022 by rodheadlee

[T-Shirt]

I absolutely despise both teams, however, apparently, I despise LA less, as I find myself rooting for them. I hate myself for it.

[strappinglad]

Sometimes it is the tool you use to " measure " with (ie, who you read or listen to ) that are badly flawed. I once installed a big picture window in an old house . My level said the window was perfect , but when I went outside and looked the window seemed to run down hill. 

I checked with the level again and it was level according to the tool. Then, out of a gut feeling I flipped the level over and looked again. By golly if the window was now out of level. Never had that problem arise before. Needless to say I got a new level and tested both sides before buying. Measure twice , cut once . Level twice ,secure once. 

[Olmec Donald]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

Sometimes it is the tool you use to " measure " with (ie, who you read or listen to ) that are badly flawed. I once installed a big picture window in an old house . My level said the window was perfect , but when I went outside and looked the window seemed to run down hill. 

I checked with the level again and it was level according to the tool. Then, out of a gut feeling I flipped the level over and looked again. By golly if the window was now out of level. 

THAT is parable material.  Seriously.  

Edited January 23, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

The world is black and white Not Grey.

I want to compliment your use of the "e" spelling of "grey" as opposed to "gray".

The "e" usage is clearly superior, and much more grim than sticking a nice fat warm "a" into a word denoting boring neutrality and grimness.  

Clearly the spelling of grey is totally black and white

 

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I want to compliment your use of the "e" spelling of "grey" as opposed to "gray".

The "e" usage is clearly superior, and much more grim than sticking a nice fat warm "a" into a word denoting boring neutrality and grimness.  

Clearly the spelling of grey is totally black and white

 

It is a graey area.

[echelon]

Back when I was in university, my professor passed around a box of Oreo's and a box of Fudgeo's in class instructing us to choose only one cookie from either box.  This was a no brainer for me as Oreo's were obviously superior to Fudgeo's and could not imagine why anyone would even consider it otherwise.  Much to my amazement, almost half the class chose a Fudgeo over an Oreo.  I was dumbstruck by this, that there were people who would actually choose a Fudgeo!  I since recognized that there was no right and wrong in this situation and have been much more open to differences in opinion and appreciative of the diversity it brings into our lives.

Edited January 23, 2022 by echelon

[mfbukowski]

42 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is a graey area.

No compromises!

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, echelon said:

I since recognized that there was no right and wrong in this situation and have been much more open to differences in opinion and appreciative of the diversity it brings into our lives.

Clear apostasy.

 

[Saint Bonaventure]

15 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Let me try this again. In 1st Nephi chapter 4 Nephi slays Laban and retrieved the Brass plates.

Some of us look at this as following God's instructions and some of us look at this and see Nephi as a murderer. We see exact opposite things. Why? Is every situation dependent on itself or is it polarized as to a certain type of person or paradigm? Or is this line of thought a waste of time? Person A believes in God, person B doesn't. Some guys like blondes, some guys like brunettes, some guys like rock, some guys like opera. 

Yeah, right, go to sleep Rod.

I've noticed an abundance of tropological (moral) interpretations of the Book of Mormon. Are other interpretive approaches--allegorical, historical, anagogical (spiritual) discouraged?

[longview]

2 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Sometimes it is the tool you use to " measure " with (ie, who you read or listen to ) that are badly flawed. I once installed a big picture window in an old house . My level said the window was perfect , but when I went outside and looked the window seemed to run down hill. 

I checked with the level again and it was level according to the tool. Then, out of a gut feeling I flipped the level over and looked again. By golly if the window was now out of level. 

THAT is parable material.  Seriously. 

Isaiah 28:
16. Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet

The "perfect square" is symbolic of Jesus' complete righteousness and judgment, His exactness and honor.

Why is there no mention of Laban's role in the discussion?  It is a 3-way dynamic, not just between Nephi and the Lord.  When Laman first approached Laban, Laban seemed to become insanely angry and gave the order for his servants to kill Laman.  Why?

Then the four brothers decided to dig up Lehi's treasure trove to use it for the purchase of the Brass Plates.  Laban became greedy and decided to steal the loot AND to murder all four brothers.  The Brass Plates was costly so Laban wanted to keep it too.

Laban's cup of iniquity was overflowing.  The Lord judged him and condemned him to death.  The Lord could have simply caused Laban's heart to stop beating.  But He commanded Nephi to carry out the execution.

Edited January 24, 2022 by longview

[The Nehor]

42 minutes ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

I've noticed an abundance of tropological (moral) interpretations of the Book of Mormon. Are other interpretive approaches--allegorical, historical, anagogical (spiritual) discouraged?

Not that I know of though if it were interpreted JUST as allegorical or anagogical many members might worry about another member losing their belief in the book itself. There are historical studies of the book. Some are good, some are bad. Some don’t come to the conclusions church members want them to.

[rodheadlee]

4 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Sometimes it is the tool you use to " measure " with (ie, who you read or listen to ) that are badly flawed. I once installed a big picture window in an old house . My level said the window was perfect , but when I went outside and looked the window seemed to run down hill. 

I checked with the level again and it was level according to the tool. Then, out of a gut feeling I flipped the level over and looked again. By golly if the window was now out of level. Never had that problem arise before. Needless to say I got a new level and tested both sides before buying. Measure twice , cut once . Level twice ,secure once. 

Half way between the 2 is level. A Master level is adjustable,  a Stabilia never needs adjustment, all other levels are inferior. 

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Isaiah 28:
16. Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet

The "perfect square" is symbolic of Jesus' complete righteousness and judgment, His exactness and honor.

Why is there no mention of Laban's role in the discussion?  It is a 3-way dynamic, not just between Nephi and the Lord.  When Laman first approached Laban, Laban seemed to become insanely angry and gave the order for his servants to kill Laman.  Why?

Then the four brothers decided to dig up Lehi's treasure trove to use it for the purchase of the Brass Plates.  Laban became greedy and decided to steal the loot AND to murder all four brothers.  The Brass Plates was costly so Laban wanted to keep it too.

Laban's cup of iniquity was overflowing.  The Lord judged him and condemned him to death.  The Lord could have simply caused Laban's heart to stop beating.  But He commanded Nephi to carry out the execution.

Yes, 3, 4, 5 is your friend, 30,40, 50 is better 

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

I've noticed an abundance of tropological (moral) interpretations of the Book of Mormon. Are other interpretive approaches--allegorical, historical, anagogical (spiritual) discouraged?

We are encouraged to ask God for our own personal revelations on these matters, (called a "testimony")

What you see here is simply a poll of board members opinions 

We have no Doctrine on many matters Catholics would call "mysteries". We believe in orthopraxis, not Orthodoxy. As long as we earnestly follow a specific list of behaviors we can be admitted to the temple where the highest sacraments/ordinances are performed allowing us to qualify for further progression after death- including the possibility of future deification.

That possibly explains the concern with morals/behaviors.  What we believe internally about such matters is between ourselves and God.

That would include scriptural interpretation.

Though many traditionally took the scriptures literally, that is not required. We are only 200 years old and the first converts were mostly Protestant, so that tendency remains, but as we grow more multicultural, the church is opening to new ways of seeing things.

I am a convert myself from Catholicism, we have other active Catholics here as well.

Welcome 

Edited January 24, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Mike Drop]

16 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Either your walls are Plumb or they're not, if they're quarter inch out of plumb they need to be fixed

I don’t see the world as black or white. Same with building a house. Walls are rarely perfectly plumb and floors are rarely perfectly level. There’s a lot of grey area when building a house, kinda like life. 
 

Have you ever set an interior door in a rough opening? If so, is it more important for the door & frame to be perfectly plumb & level or is it more important for the reveal between the door and frame to look perfect even though that might mean the frame is out of plumb a 1/4 inch? Life is the same way! Nothin is ever perfect. 

[rodheadlee]

3 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

I don’t see the world as black or white. Same with building a house. Walls are rarely perfectly plumb and floors are rarely perfectly level. There’s a lot of grey area when building a house, kinda like life. 
 

Have you ever set an interior door in a rough opening? If so, is it more important for the door & frame to be perfectly plumb & level or is it more important for the reveal between the door and frame to look perfect even though that might mean the frame is out of plumb a 1/4 inch? Life is the same way! Nothin is ever perfect. 

That's what they make laser levels for.:-)

But yeah appearances matter.

To tell you the truth it's only been this guy work for the last two years that desires Perfection over production.

He never says the words hurry up.

Edited January 24, 2022 by rodheadlee

[James 1 5]

On 1/23/2022 at 12:10 AM, rodheadlee said:

Let me try this again. In 1st Nephi chapter 4 Nephi slays Laban and retrieved the Brass plates.

Some of us look at this as following God's instructions and some of us look at this and see Nephi as a murderer. We see exact opposite things. Why? Is every situation dependent on itself or is it polarized as to a certain type of person or paradigm? Or is this line of thought a waste of time? Person A believes in God, person B doesn't. Some guys like blondes, some guys like brunettes, some guys like rock, some guys like opera. 

Yeah, right, go to sleep Rod.

Why?  Because some of us are right and others of us are wrong.  Because something is either right or it is wrong,  And often there are many right choices and many wrong choices.  We each choose what we like or don't like but our choices are right or wrong,

That's what I think.  I suppose I could be wrong, theoretically. 

 

[Rivers]

On 1/23/2022 at 1:10 AM, rodheadlee said:

Let me try this again. In 1st Nephi chapter 4 Nephi slays Laban and retrieved the Brass plates.

Some of us look at this as following God's instructions and some of us look at this and see Nephi as a murderer. We see exact opposite things. Why? Is every situation dependent on itself or is it polarized as to a certain type of person or paradigm? Or is this line of thought a waste of time? Person A believes in God, person B doesn't. Some guys like blondes, some guys like brunettes, some guys like rock, some guys like opera. 

Yeah, right, go to sleep Rod.

I’m pro-death penalty.  So I have no problem with Nephi killing Laban. 

[Alexi Nakatology]

I found it very interesting revisiting this story recently that it’s Laban’s Sword that continues through into the story and even into Church history