Is it just me?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

My understanding based on the whistleblower documents and interviews with his brother, the Church's overall income statement looks something like this:

 

And any documentation for these numbers and other claims were often self referential (footnoted to somewhere else in his work with no more evidence than provided originally, felt like his documentation pretty much came down to “here are some pages I saved from orientation and the rest is because I said so”). Not saying he wasn’t right in his claims, just saying it was very poorly documented Imo outside of what were church produced pages…not including in the decent stuff his non documented notes on those pages. 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Correct, but you can't get more books. Like other books that are being done away with, they are "available" online in archived format, but not as books.*

So you pay to print them up and bind them as needed rather than the Church doing so and having them end up in the trash after sitting on the shelf for a couple of years. I was a ward librarian for probably 15 years and only once in all that time did anyone come to ask for an old or current manual outside of teaching class and that was to get the blessings from one of the priesthood manuals. Church DVDs, pictures…by the mid 90s everyone just used their manuals rather than the library.
 

The stuff I was throwing away or watching year after year only moved by our dusting  made me ill at the waste. I am very grateful it is online now for those who want it rather than ending up in landfills. 

[let’s roll]

8 hours ago, Fether said:

Is it just me or have the talks from our leader become more and more bland over time? I’m only old enough to remember as far back as Gordon B Hinkley, but I remember his public addresses being full of personality. Monson too had his own personality implanted into his talks. But today, aside from Oaks, Eyring, Holland, Uchtdorf and Bednar (the eldest apostles), the personality has been taken out of the messages and they are all becoming one bland message. When I look at the apostles, I see no difference between Ulisses Soares up to Quinten L Cook and M Russell Ballard (though I feel the current bland approach may be his own individualistic approach).

I think back to the apostle who recently died and they too all had individualism on their talks. Packer as like the wise old guy who you knew had seen Christ. Perry had that old man fire and could speak powerfully. Hales and Scott were these gentle, soft spoken grandpas.

If you keep going back, you find more and more apostles who had fairly intense personalities (for better or worst).

The message itself is excellent, but I don’t feel the individualism in them. Am I making all this up in my head? Has it always been this way?

 

Have you found your communion with Deity to become more bland over time?  Mine has not.

Added benefit is there is no need to wait for six months for the next session.  And rather than needing to extrapolate guidance relevant to my personal circumstance from an address directed to all the world, I can receive individualized Divine insight, comfort and direction.

I appreciate all that the leaders of the Church do, acknowledge their wisdom, and understand that none of them want me to look to them as my principal source of spiritual guidance and knowledge.  Each would point me, and you, to Deity.  We would all do well to heed that advice.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, rongo said:

I think people still try to see the emperor with clothes with conference ("Oh, it is going to be marvelous! Oh, it was outstanding!"), but I think that increasingly, that doesn't square with people's actual experience with it. Especially when they remember conferences of years ago. 

The common refrain of aging people in all ages of the world.

[smac97]

18 minutes ago, Analytics said:

CFR. My understanding based on the whistleblower documents and interviews with his brother, the Church's overall income statement looks something like this:

Tithing Income:              $8,000,000,000 per year
Investment income:       $9,000,000,000 per year
Other business income:    $500,000,000 per year
Total Income:                 $17,500,000,000 per year

Total expenses:                $7,000,000,000 per year

Percent of what it takes in that goes back out: ($7B/$17.5B) = 40%

Percent of what it takes in that stays in: 60%

First, I'm not taking these figures as established.  

Second, the "income" I had in mind was tithes and offerings.

Third, these figures do not include fast offerings, I think.

Fourth, I'm not sure if these figures include foodstuffs, commodities, etc. that the Church distributes.  I doubt it.

18 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Those numbers are a high-level, very rough estimate, but I think they are in the ballpark. My point is that when you include investment and business income, the church uses the majority of its annual income to increase its business and investment holdings. 

I thought he was implying that they were scrooges who prefer to sit on unreasonably large hordes of assets rather than use them to do good in the world.

We've been over this a number of times.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[rongo]

48 minutes ago, rchorse said:

Translation considerations are not all that's going on, but I think you're underestimating the challenges posed by translation into over 100 languages and how quickly things need to be turned around. My wife is currently getting started doing some German interpreting/translating for the church, and from what they're telling her, they're constantly short staffed and having trouble finding qualified people. I think translation is a major consideration for general conference addresses, as well as a lot (clearly not all) of the changes to the temple ceremony over the last few years.

Sure it is, but again, I don't think it has been the primary driver behind the shifts in conference, and certainly not with the temple ceremony. Instantaneous translation is nice, but it isn't imperative. 

[Fether]

26 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Have you found your communion with Deity to become more bland over time?  Mine has not.

Added benefit is there is no need to wait for six months for the next session.  And rather than needing to extrapolate guidance relevant to my personal circumstance from an address directed to all the world, I can receive individualized Divine insight, comfort and direction.

I appreciate all that the leaders of the Church do, acknowledge their wisdom, and understand that none of them want me to look to them as my principal source of spiritual guidance and knowledge.  Each would point me, and you, to Deity.  We would all do well to heed that advice.

Not at all actually. My spiritual growth has only improved since my youth and my two year mission. I’m only making an observation.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, rongo said:

It is touted as real, live, unfolding-as-we-speak modern-day revelation, but most people know through their own experience that it is much more boring than it used to be. People can say, "Then that's your fault," but this increasingly isn't convincing to people (active believers, but who are honest about their experience).

Mate, you're projecting.

Of course, if I find that General Conference just keeps getting better and better, then I must just be 'dishonest', right? 

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

Instantaneous translation is nice, but it isn't imperative. 

Writes the person who has never had to wait two months to access General Conference ...

[rongo]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

So you pay to print them up and bind them as needed rather than the Church doing so and having them end up in the trash after sitting on the shelf for a couple of years. I was a ward librarian for probably 15 years and only once in all that time did anyone come to ask for an old or current manual outside of teaching class and that was to get the blessings from one of the priesthood manuals. Church DVDs, pictures…by the mid 90s everyone just used their manuals rather than the library.

The stuff I was throwing away or watching year after year only moved by our dusting  made me ill at the waste. I am very grateful it is online now for those who want it rather than ending up in landfills. 

I wish there was a way for those who do want paper to order them and even to pay for them themselves. We would be more than happy to do that. We have been able to get many things from ward libraries before they are tossed. Come Follow Me is available in paper, for now, but I think full online is only a matter of time. 

Interestingly, the Church is starting to shut down the institute libraries. NAU has a really nice one (all of the Nibley books, complete sets of really old works like JoD, CHC, DHC, Doctrines of Salvation, Answers to Gospel Questions, Messages from the First Presidency, and many others). The institute director told my kids that Salt Lake has said that they are eliminating the libraries and collecting the books. They asked if people could have them, like when ward libraries clean them out, and he said that he thinks they don't want people to have them, and they are collecting them in part to drastically limit potential circulation. I told them to tell him that if there is a possibility we could have them, let me know and I will be there with a UHaul.  We already have many of the sets, but there are some we don't have and would like to, and I would like to be able to have some sets for my kids and grandkids. 

I've had people who want to really dig into Church history and don't like the Saints series, whom I've introduced to DHC (formerly History of the Church) and CHC (B.H. Roberts's church history from Joseph Smith's ancestors to 1930; handles well many apologetic issues and doesn't flinch from hard topics or non-rosy instances). They love it, and want to read it in non-digital form (paper), and it's hard to find. I don't like mine being out on permanent loan.  It looks like Deseret Book only offers e-book versions now. 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

wish there was a way for those who do want paper to order them and even to pay for them themselves.

Why not just print it up yourself then?  The binding may not be as nice, but otherwise…

Perhaps printing has changed dramatically, but keeping inventory on hand for ‘someone might want it sometime in the next 20 years’ is expensive, so I would assume it would need to be print on demand and I assume having to reprogram formatting for all old manuals as updated, new printing tech is used would be rather expensive for likely a few requests. I doubt most members would care to pay to cover actual costs rather than the $2-10 they were used to. 

[JLHPROF]

43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The common refrain of aging people in all ages of the world.

Just because aging people observe the change better doesn't make it any less a change.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, rongo said:

Interestingly, the Church is starting to shut down the institute libraries.

I am not surprised. The stake library was gathering dust way before many books were offered online and while I know around 2001 when I worked at a church bookstore, it was still considered worthwhile to purchase scholarly and devotional books for institute libraries, I would be very interested to learn how many actually use them at this point to justify the hundreds of dollars per semester they were spending to keep it up to date given the price of academic and hardback books these days. 

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I am not surprised. The stake library was gathering dust way before many books were offered online and while I know around 2001 when I worked at a church bookstore, it was still considered worthwhile to purchase scholarly and devotional books for institute libraries, I would be very interested to learn how many actually use them at this point to justify the hundreds of dollars per semester they were spending to keep it up to date given the price of academic and hardback books these days. 

I don't think it costs them anything. They aren't maintaining subscriptions; these are older books in a nice-looking library. 

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, rongo said:

They love it, and want to read it in non-digital form (paper), and it's hard to find. I

I agree finding stuff in hard copy can be hard these days and expensive. I just don’t see why other church members not interested should be footing the bill for someone’s personal pastimes, as exemplary as they are. 

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't think it costs them anything. They aren't maintaining subscriptions; these are older books in a nice-looking library. 

It costs at the very least ‘landscape’ that can be used for another purpose.  It costs a couple of volunteers to keep track of who checked out what and quite a bit of effort to get them returned in a timely fashion. And if it isn’t replaced when not returned or not strictly supervised, any worthwhile books will take a walk and what will be left are a bunch of old books no one is interested in (having helped inventory two stake libraries as well as having worked in actual libraries).  Not saying it is intentional, but even stake libraries had a problem with books going missing as some forgot to return them and often moved taking books with them. I can imagine institute books with young adults involved need quite a bit more supervision to ensure they are returned by the end of the semester or before the mission, new job, marriage, etc. 

 

I think lending libraries are a great idea. I just don’t believe the Church should be financing and supervising something that benefits only a small percentage of members that they can access in other ways.  Lending libraries are becoming quite popular. You could set one up for your stake as it sounds like you have the basics. 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

Basically what you’re saying is, the Holy Ghost is so weak, insignificant, the mouth of God (prophet) can’t give a talk in General Conference without it being full of mistakes? Really? Is that where Mormonism has sunk to? What does it mean to be a prophet? What does it mean to be a seer? What does it mean to be a revelator? 
 

On average there’s 30 to 40 talks given in General Conference. Wouldn’t it be nice to have just one given that wasn’t pre-written? 

Sorry you didn't understand I was being sarcastic.

Inspired material can be written down, as are the scriptures, which is how we should regard conference talks read by our 15 prophets, seers, and revelators.

In today's world of political correctness, hypercriticalism, and declining freedom of speech, it is simply a fact of life that it is foolish to speak without a very carefully prepared text. 

It is naive to think otherwise.  

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Just because aging people observe the change better doesn't make it any less a change.

Was the world better when you were young or because you were young?

[T-Shirt]

5 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

Wouldn’t it be nice to have just one given that wasn’t pre-written? 

Why does it matter?

[Islander]

12 hours ago, Fether said:

Is it just me or have the talks from our leader become more and more bland over time? I’m only old enough to remember as far back as Gordon B Hinkley, but I remember his public addresses being full of personality. Monson too had his own personality implanted into his talks. But today, aside from Oaks, Eyring, Holland, Uchtdorf and Bednar (the eldest apostles), the personality has been taken out of the messages and they are all becoming one bland message. When I look at the apostles, I see no difference between Ulisses Soares up to Quinten L Cook and M Russell Ballard (though I feel the current bland approach may be his own individualistic approach).

I think back to the apostle who recently died and they too all had individualism on their talks. Packer as like the wise old guy who you knew had seen Christ. Perry had that old man fire and could speak powerfully. Hales and Scott were these gentle, soft spoken grandpas.

If you keep going back, you find more and more apostles who had fairly intense personalities (for better or worst).

The message itself is excellent, but I don’t feel the individualism in them. , m I making all this up in my head? Has it always been this way?

 

No, it is not just you. I posted recently about how insular and irrelevant the Church is becoming in the community, disengaged and even apathetic to what is happening around us. I got 20 different responses but most could be summarized as rationalizations and justifications for the current conditions of the congregations.

In my field of professional endeavor failure is the norm. But iterative failure is the fastest way to success. Every failed attempt is an opportunity for tremendous learning, insights and awareness. However, any criticism, even in a constructive spirit is quickly regarded as apostasy, when it comes to the Church.  I shared with a friend that in my estimation, most talks this day, at every level, are nothing but either self-aggrandizing storytelling or just commentary on commentary. The essence of the Gospel is not being preach any more. A friend I took to Church before Christmas commented on the fact that "except a few verses from your book, the rest were just personal anecdotes..." Not much I could say since that was a pretty fair assessment.

I suggest there is fear and inertia at play. The sad part is that it tends to infect the whole church even though the leadership is reacting to what what is happening only in America. We can avoid the reproach and even the wrath of men but keeping quiet. I wonder if people forgot the words of the Savior when He said: "And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple...So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

The price of true discipleship is very high. For some too high, it seems.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Islander said:

A friend I took to Church before Christmas commented on the fact that "except a few verses from your book, the rest were just personal anecdotes..."

Hearing people talk about their personal experiences with living/applying gospel principles is one of the central reasons why I go to church. I can stay home and read the scriptures. What I need when I gather is the strength and renewal I get from hearing others.

[Islander]

14 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Hearing people talk about their personal experiences with living/applying gospel principles is one of the central reasons why I go to church. I can stay home and read the scriptures. What I need when I gather is the strength and renewal I get from hearing others.

The true heroes of the faith ARE in the pages of scripture. We are mere fallen, mortal humans. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

20 minutes ago, Islander said:

We are mere fallen, mortal humans. 

All the more reason to strengthen each other. An atheist can prepare a sermon based on scripture. (I know. When I first started working for the Anglican Church, our interim priest was a non-believer.)

I want to be inspired by the testimony of witnesses, and that requires personal experience.

PS: The guys who wrote the scriptures were mortals too.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Was the world better when you were young or because you were young?

Better can mean many things. 

Much is better now.  Much was better before.  My age is only one component of my opinion on what is better.  My faith is another.  And my ethnicity, family upbringing, education...and a hundred other influences.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I wish there was a way for those who do want paper to order them and even to pay for them themselves.

In another generation or two, there will be few who have ever even held a paper "book", any more than there are people today demanding papyrus scrolls to read scripture.

They really do cut down trees to make paper books, you know!

It's a dying and outmoded technology