Clue on “Jeopardy!” highlights correct name of the Church

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Members just don't get how obscure we are!

Ok, right now, without looking anything up, everyone tell me about the beliefs of the "Moravians".

Without research, off the top of your heads, tell me what they believe.

THAT is about how much folks know about Mormons!

I lived in Moravia for about a year. It is a fantastic place with a fantastic culture. 
 

But those “Moravian” heretics..? 😉

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

......................

Second, the full name of the Church is comparatively long and unwieldy.  "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" versus "The Mormon Church" or "The LDS Church."

.....................

I have noticed that, when one is visiting the LDS website, discussions of the LDS Church nearly always refer simply to "the Church."  That may be fine in self-referential fashion, but it is no different that the self-referential nature of other churches -- which refer to themselves as "the Church."

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I have noticed that, when one is visiting the LDS website, discussions of the LDS Church nearly always refer simply to "the Church."  That may be fine in self-referential fashion, but it is no different that the self-referential nature of other churches -- which refer to themselves as "the Church."

We are, by creed, the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.”

I’m ready for LDS to refer to Catholicism as such 😉

[mfbukowski]

30 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I lived in Moravia for about a year. It is a fantastic place with a fantastic culture. 
 

But those “Moravian” heretics..? 😉

A few years ago, we toured southern Poland right along the "border" of what would be Moravia: Prague, Wroclaw, Krakow, Zakopane, and of course Bukowina Tatrzańska and never had a clue that THAT was "Moravia" (kind of... ! )  It is a legend that we came from Bukovina but I think it is more true that the NAME originated there and the family moved to the Big City.  I had been in Vienna a few times before, Prague was great but it was the first time I saw the actual "Infant of Prague" statue.

But anyway, I would be interested in the story-- privately or not-  are you Polish or Czech?  Please answer privately if you prefer.  Where more exactly were you?

I am totally enamored with the Czechs and "Bohemia"- it is clear that the arts are what the entire culture is about- fabulous folks!

 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

We are, by creed, the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.”

I’m ready for LDS to refer to Catholicism as such 😉

But do you object if we just say “Catholocism”? I’m not aware of any Catholic having made an issue of it (and I’m not sure you are doing so here). 

I won’t object if you say “Mormonism.” But I have higher expectations of professing Latter-day Saints. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Hey Scott, what is the surest predictor of future behavior?

If President Nelson can do an about face on President Monson's Mormon emphasis then a future about face is completely possible.

After all, those same brethren you list above were general authorities under President Monson too.

And you're the one comparing it to the slow removal of plural marriage.   I'm merely pointing out our leaders are only united as long as the current Prophet calls the shots.

So I take it you can’t cite EVEN ONE high Church leader who is at odds with President Nelson on the proper name of the Church, much less either of the two men who are first and second in line to succeed him as Church president. 

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I lived in Moravia for about a year. It is a fantastic place with a fantastic culture. 
 

But those “Moravian” heretics..? 😉

I found this VERY "LDS" sounding statement about the Infant of Prague statue; my mother was quite a devotee of this as a concept, and now here I am.

"As Pope Benedict XVI said:

The figure of the Child Jesus, the tender infant, brings home to us God’s closeness and his love. We come to understand how precious we are in his eyes, because it is through him that we in our turn have become children of God. Every human being is a child of God and therefore our brother or sister, to be welcomed and respected. May our society grasp this truth! Every human person would then be appreciated not for what he has, but for who he is, since in the face of every human being, without distinction of race or culture, God’s image shines forth.

Source:

Basilica Guide and Tour Book,  Dr. Geraldine Rohling"

https://www.nationalshrine.org/blog/what-is-the-origin-of-the-infant-jesus-of-prague/

Edited January 8, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So I take it you can’t cite EVEN ONE high Church leader who is at odds with President Nelson on the proper name of the Church, much less either of the two men who are first and second in line to succeed him as Church president. 

Were any at odds when Pres Monson did the I’m a Mormon promotion?  Back then, would you have predicted President Nelson would have not only push for a change, but invested quite a bit of money in making it happen?  The website names were unlikely to have been cheap, for example.

I am not suggesting there will be a change, but the I’m a Mormon was a massive and a successful and worldwide effort I have no doubt was inspired with a lot of involvement in promotion just by ordinary members being able to contribute their stories online…lots of enthusiasm for it.  I would have never predicted we would abandon that effort more or less and in language that can be interpreted as condemning it even (though I don’t think that was the intent)..  I don’t think you can point to the current level of commitment and say this effort won’t be abandoned either if a better approach comes along for that time given a similar level of effort, though directed in other ways, was left behind for a new approach.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I am totally enamored with the Czechs and "Bohemia"- it is clear that the arts are what the entire culture is about- fabulous folks!

My father lived in Czechoslovakia under the Communists. He wasn't Czech, but he was certainly a 'Bohemian'!

[Navidad]

20 hours ago, pogi said:

First contestant:

That is hilarious that the guy totally left out the "Savior" part from the clue. 

Is our name really that foreign to people?

 

Yes it is. I would suggest the formal name of the LDS Church here in Mexico is virtually completely (is that a tautology?) unknown. I would also suggest that while 77% (as of the most recent census) of Mexicans claim to be Catholic, very few of them know the "official"name of the Catholic church. As long as I am at it, I must also confess (pun intended) that I am not sure of the official name of the Catholic Church.  I believe it is "The Catholic Church" no more and no less. However, I will yield to our Catholic friends for an authoritative answer.

It also seems to me that when the vast majority of members of the LDS church refer to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," they just, only, and simply deem it "The Church," like using the term "The Gospel" to only refer to the LDS gospel, or "The Sacrament" to only refer to the LDS Sacrament. Those are customs or habits that always bring me pause. 

Many folks believe that Baylor University (whose football team did extremely well in their bowl game) is owned by the Southern Baptist Convention, like BYU is owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is not. It is affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas, a SBC affiliate group.

And finally while I am at it, I will add that to my knowledge there is no official name for Mennonites! I was for years a member of "The Mennonite Church USA," one of many different Mennonite groups. Then around 1998 or so that all changed as several large Mennonite groups merged. There is a little town near here with 6 or 7 Mennonite churches in it. I believe each of them belong or affiliate with a different Mennonite conference or group, or no conference or group at all. Members of any of the churches in that town are simply known as "Mennonites!"

Edited January 8, 2022 by Navidad

[Navidad]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Actually most of that particular apostasy came as a result of the double talk of the general authorities of the day.  They even confused each other for nearly 30 years.

It was especially confusing here in the Mexican colonies! Hundreds of post-manifesto and post-second-manifesto polygamous marriages were performed here by LDS officials (apostles, bishops, and patriarchs) into the 1920s. I believe the last polygamous literal and figurative sister wives here lived into the late 1960s.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I won’t object if you say “Mormonism.”

What is the church’s preferred replacement for that word?

[Stargazer]

20 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

At least until the next Prophet changes direction.

I don't see that coming. I'd guess they are all pretty well on the same page.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Yes it is. I would suggest the formal name of the LDS Church here in Mexico is virtually completely (is that a tautology?) unknown

That is the problem.

No, it's not a tautology 

I also never knew the Mennonites were Christian, just like the Movavians, who are also Anabaptists.

Does that not bother you that, like Mormons, no one outside your community knows what you stand for?

Is that somehow linked to your humble attitude that your church is not more correct than any other Christian group, so it is not important that people see a difference?

We think we ARE different, and that is a good thing, perhaps you see that as part of our alleged superiority problem?

I am confused 

Edited January 8, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Deleted

[Navidad]

25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Nice

What's your point?

What?????   I have to have a point? There go half my posts!

I guess my point was that a lot of folks don't know much about other churches, denominations, etc. And perhaps that some don't even have a formal name or affiliation that is evident. The Assemblies of God are often just called Pentecostals along with a host of other Pentecostal groups. Now, why did I say that? I think I had a point in mind! Oh well, it possibly wasn't worth remembering! I think, like Mormon, the word Pentecostal is often used as an adjective. Is that a point? Oh boy, you just took the fun out of posting! Ha!

Edited January 8, 2022 by Navidad

[mfbukowski]

2 minutes ago, Navidad said:

What?????   I have to have a point? There go half my posts!

I guess my point was that a lot of folks don't know much about other churches, denominations, etc. And perhaps that some don't even have a formal name or affiliation that is evident. The Assemblies of God are often just called Pentecostals along with a host of other Pentecostal groups. Now, why did I say that? I think I had a point in mind! Oh well, it possibly wasn't worth remembering! I think, like Mormon, the word Pentecostal is often used as an adjective. Is that a point? Oh boy, you just took the fun out of posting! Ha!

Sorry, I tried to delete that post, but you responded before I was able to delete it 

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

My father lived in Czechoslovakia under the Communists. He wasn't Czech, but he was certainly a 'Bohemian'!

I also have a relative who lived under communism, and now she makes President Benson look like a commie himself! 

 

 

[Navidad]

27 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

That is the problem.

No, it's not a tautology 

I also never knew the Mennonites were Christian, just like the Movavians, who are also Anabaptists.

Does that not bother you that, like Mormons, no one outside your community knows what you stand for?

Is that somehow linked to your humble attitude that your church is not more correct than any other Christian group, so it is not important that people see a difference?

We think we ARE different, and that is a good thing, perhaps you see that as part of our alleged superiority problem?

I am confused 

Here in Mexico, the Spanish word for Mormon is . . . well, Mormon! The Spanish word for the LeBaron -affiliated fundamentalist group is  . . .  well, LeBarons!

I grew up around Moravian churches, but they had no formal affiliation with Mennonites or other Anabaptist groups. Moravians, to my knowledge never acknowledged themselves as Anabaptists, nor does Anabaptism, claim them as part of their historical crimson thread. Perhaps the best that can be said is that Anabaptism and Moravians share a heritage older than the the Reformation, neither are Reformed or Lutheran, and that we share pietistic perspectives. Lots of Evangelicals who share pietistic proclivities credit the Moravians for their writings on that subject.

If folks don't know what Mennonites stand for, that doesn't bother me at all. Sometimes we fight about what we stand for. I am much more concerned that folks, especially here know what non-LDS Christians and Evangelicals stand for. That is what sometimes gets misrepresented. Mennonites have a self-concept of being the "quiet" or the "hidden in the land" wherever we have lived. The idea that the Mennonite church is "more correct" than any other Christian group is completely foreign to me. I went to a loosely affiliated Methodist college, American Baptist, Southern Baptist, and Christian Church/Disciples of Christ seminaries and a Baptist graduate school in religious studies. I also did undergraduate work at a Jesuit university.  I was ordained by a Baptist church and licensed as a minister in a Mennonite conference. All were Christian. Some were Evangelical, some were Mainliners. I am studying now at a university that sits about a couple of miles from the Canterbury Cathedral, the home of the Anglican Church. None of my formal education was Mennonite.

I have zero issues with my LDS friends considering themselves different. We are all different from each other, especially when it comes to what Joseph Smith called the "appendages." As you know, my discomfort is with LDS "onlyism." I am uncomfortable with anyone whether it be in religion, politics, cooking, or any other endeavor who claims to be the only. God revealed to Elijah that he was wrong when he sat under the broom tree claiming to be the "only."

I know sometimes I confuse you. I am sorry for that. All that I can offer is that sometimes I confuse myself too. I certainly also confuse my wife sometimes. My Spanish confuses folks sometimes. Taking pride in my faith is a bit oxymoronic to me. I am not sure that is even a word! Take care and best wishes.

[mfbukowski]

16 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Here in Mexico, the Spanish word for Mormon is . . . well, Mormon! The Spanish word for the LeBaron -affiliated fundamentalist group is  . . .  well, LeBarons!

I grew up around Moravian churches, but they had no formal affiliation with Mennonites or other Anabaptist groups. Moravians, to my knowledge never acknowledged themselves as Anabaptists, nor does Anabaptism, claim them as part of their historical crimson thread. Perhaps the best that can be said is that Anabaptism and Moravians share a heritage older than the the Reformation, neither are Reformed or Lutheran, and that we share pietistic perspectives. Lots of Evangelicals who share pietistic proclivities credit the Moravians for their writings on that subject.

If folks don't know what Mennonites stand for, that doesn't bother me at all. Sometimes we fight about what we stand for. I am much more concerned that folks, especially here know what non-LDS Christians and Evangelicals stand for. That is what sometimes gets misrepresented. Mennonites have a self-concept of being the "quiet" or the "hidden in the land" wherever we have lived. The idea that the Mennonite church is "more correct" than any other Christian group is completely foreign to me. I went to a loosely affiliated Methodist college, American Baptist, Southern Baptist, and Christian Church/Disciples of Christ seminaries and a Baptist graduate school in religious studies. I also did undergraduate work at a Jesuit university.  I was ordained by a Baptist church and licensed as a minister in a Mennonite conference. All were Christian. Some were Evangelical, some were Mainliners. I am studying now at a university that sits about a couple of miles from the Canterbury Cathedral, the home of the Anglican Church. None of my formal education was Mennonite.

I have zero issues with my LDS friends considering themselves different. We are all different from each other, especially when it comes to what Joseph Smith called the "appendages." As you know, my discomfort is with LDS "onlyism." I am uncomfortable with anyone whether it be in religion, politics, cooking, or any other endeavor who claims to be the only. God revealed to Elijah that he was wrong when he sat under the broom tree claiming to be the "only."

I know sometimes I confuse you. I am sorry for that. All that I can offer is that sometimes I confuse myself too. I certainly also confuse my wife sometimes. My Spanish confuses folks sometimes. Taking pride in my faith is a bit oxymoronic to me. I am not sure that is even a word! Take care and best wishes.

Well we share our building with a Spanish Ward, primarily Mexican, and Stake conferences are done in both languages- we have members also I think, from about every other Spanish speaking country there is; about half our Stake speaks only Spanish- and I am getting semi-fluent in "church Spanish" and all the Spanish speakers seem to use the correct name of the church about as often as the English members do.

So I am not sure why you don't do it in Mexico.

It should be on the side of your building at very least, it is in every other country I have visited.

Edited January 8, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Peacefully]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Members just don't get how obscure we are!

Ok, right now, without looking anything up, everyone tell me about the beliefs of the "Moravians".

Without research, off the top of your heads, tell me what they believe.

THAT is about how much folks know about Mormons!

Agree! Growing up all I knew about the Church was the Osmonds were Mormon and my church of Christ preacher grandfather had a book called “Why Mormons Aren’t Christian. “

Edited January 8, 2022 by Peacefully

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

As long as I am at it, I must also confess (pun intended) that I am not sure of the official name of the Catholic Church.  I believe it is "The Catholic Church" no more and no less. However, I will yield to our Catholic friends for an authoritative answer.

It appears that it can be either Catholic Church or Roman Catholic Church. Wikipedia says:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church#Name

Quote

The first known use of the phrase "the catholic church" (Greek: καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία, romanized: he katholike ekklesia) occurred in the letter written about 110 AD from Saint Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans. ... The name "Catholic Church" for the whole church is used in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1990) and the Code of Canon Law (1983). The name "Catholic Church" is also used in the documents of the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), the First Vatican Council (1869–1870), the Council of Trent (1545–1563), and numerous other official documents.

"Catholic", of course, means "Universal" in Greek. So, it is the Universal Church.

[Navidad]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well we share our building with a Spanish Ward, primarily Mexican, and Stake conferences are done in both languages- we have members also I think, from about every other Spanish speaking country there is; about half our Stake speaks only Spanish- and I am getting semi-fluent in "church Spanish" and all the Spanish speakers seem to use the correct name of the church about as often as the English members do.

So I am not sure why you don't do it in Mexico.

It should be on the side of your building at very least, it is in every other country I have visited.

I was referring to when non-LDS Mexicans refer to the LDS church. I have never heard a mestizo who is not LDS refer to the LDS church as la Iglesia de Jesucristo de los Santos de los Últimos Días. I think perhaps once or twice I have heard mestizo members use the entire name in Spanish outside of a formal church or stake setting. The name in Spanish is on the chapel and on a sign beside the temple. I don't remember seeing the name on the stake center. I may simply have missed it. It is important here to differentiate between mestizo and Mexican as one is a race and one is a nationality. It is a bigger deal here than the simple use of the term Mexican. Even Anglos with many generations here are not considered Mexican. Up through the 30s Anglos had to carry immigration cards even if they were born here. It is a long and complicated story and situation, especially here in northern Mexico and especially especially when discussing Mormons and Mennonites. No one cares whether an Anglo is a Baptist, Catholic, Pentecostal, or a nothing, but Anglo and to a lesser degree mestizo Mormons and Mennonites are distinct groups with lots of baggage in the culture.

[Peacefully]

23 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I was referring to when non-LDS Mexicans refer to the LDS church. I have never heard a mestizo who is not LDS refer to the LDS church as la Iglesia de Jesucristo de los Santos de los Últimos Días. I think perhaps once or twice I have heard mestizo members use the entire name in Spanish outside of a formal church or stake setting. The name in Spanish is on the chapel and on a sign beside the temple. I don't remember seeing the name on the stake center. I may simply have missed it. It is important here to differentiate between mestizo and Mexican as one is a race and one is a nationality. It is a bigger deal here than the simple use of the term Mexican. Even Anglos with many generations here are not considered Mexican. Up through the 30s Anglos had to carry immigration cards even if they were born here. It is a long and complicated story and situation, especially here in northern Mexico and especially especially when discussing Mormons and Mennonites. No one cares whether an Anglo is a Baptist, Catholic, Pentecostal, or a nothing, but Anglo and to a lesser degree mestizo Mormons and Mennonites are distinct groups with lots of baggage in the culture.

Off the subject, but my kids’ dad is from Ciudad Juárez. The story goes that his mom’s father was a Mennonite and that is why they have light skin and his brother has blue eyes. I think my daughter would be interested to find out if the story is true but we wouldn’t even know where to start.